Kinetic Melee: A Gimmicky Proposal

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, JayboH said:

What we've been discussing:

 

On 3/7/2024 at 9:31 PM, Monos King said:

 Updated Mechanic: Power Siphon Stacks

• Once above 5 stacks (3 for Stalkers) the following powers receive a 30% cast time decrease while retaining normal damage

The only way for that to be done is for new animations at the shorter animation time be created for the power set to access like with Titan Weapons.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The only way for that to be done is for new animations at the shorter animation time be created for the power set to access like with Titan Weapons.

New powers would need to be created (because one would be the normal slower version and the other would be the 30% reduction version).

 

However, new animations would not. What this would look like is included in the Spoiler tags under the "Animation Fixes" category in the original post. 

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Monos King said:

New powers would need to be created (because one would be the normal slower version and the other would be the 30% reduction version).

 

However, new animations would not. What this would look like is included in the Spoiler tags under the "Animation Fixes" category in the original post. 

Yeah... I'm still opposed to just shortening the animations of the powers because the animation times for KM are not slow. However, the only way for a power to have a long form and a short form cast time is to have a long form and a short form animation to reflect said cast time. When the long form of the power is active, it uses the long form animation. When the short form animation of the power is active, it uses the short form animation.

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

However, the only way for a power to have a long form and a short form cast time is to have a long form and a short form animation to reflect said cast time. When the long form of the power is active, it uses the long form animation. When the short form animation of the power is active, it uses the short form animation.

That is correct, yes.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Monos King said:

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

However, the only way for a power to have a long form and a short form cast time is to have a long form and a short form animation to reflect said cast time. When the long form of the power is active, it uses the long form animation. When the short form animation of the power is active, it uses the short form animation.

That is correct, yes.

... that requires new animations to be made... even if only sped up versions of the existing ones....

[Monos King]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

... that requires new animations to be made... even if only sped up versions of the existing ones....

I see the issue. In general, sped up animations are not considered to be "new" ones. New ones are ones that require a different division of design. Sped up and cut animations are colloquially known as recycled or modified animations. One is much harder, or at least is dealt with differently.

 

In regards to your points about Kinetic Melee not needing speed changes because the powers are not slow, there is an entire section about that. The goal is, ultimately to improve Kinetic Melee's DPS. I referenced that there are posts that take a different approach to this, like making RT and CS super big hitters, but this post takes a thematic speedening approach. The reason for this preference is also noted above - one regarding a sense of "kinetic" nature. I opted to go with acceleration to reflect this preference and theme. I also noted that the first 4 powers are distinctly good in speed, and why the later powers are or feel slow even beyond the point in the animation the damage is applied.

Edited March 11 by Monos King
Details

[JayboH]

That's basically what I meant by 'baked in' earlier.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Monos King said:

In general, sped up animations are not considered to be "new" ones. New ones are ones that require a different division of design. Sped up and cut animations are colloquially known as recycled or modified animations. 

 

In regards to your points about Kinetic Melee not needing speed changes because the powers are not slow, there is an entire section about that. The goal is, ultimately to improve Kinetic Melee's DPS. I referenced that there are posts that take a different approach to this, like making RT and CS super big hitters, but this post takes a thematic speedening approach. The reason for this preference is also noted above - one regarding a sense of "kinetic" nature. I opted to go with acceleration to reflect this preference and theme. I also noted that the first 4 powers are distinctly good in speed, and why the later powers are or feel slow even beyond the point in the animation the damage is applied.

I understand what you are trying to do. As I said earlier, I have no opinion on it. I'm fine with my KM, though I do understand others are not with theirs. If you can convince the devs to improve KM, I'm not going to complain. (Though I would like alternate sounds for the set. The sounds start out nice, but quickly become tedious.) The only part I intend to have in this discussion is what I have been posting about, that by and large the animation times for KM is in keeping with other melee sets. If some of the later powers in the set aren't up to snuff, they can be buffed. If part of that buffing the devs decide to shorten the animation time? That's their choice.

 

(Edit: As for the new as opposed to recycled for animations? To me, if something is placed in the game but the original version of it is still there so now there are two of them? I call that new. However, I've had more arguments lately than I care to bother with, this is a minor matter at best, so I'm just going to say we hold different views. I apologize for the potential derailment.)

Edited March 11 by Rudra

[Monos King]

34 minutes ago, Rudra said:

(Though I would like alternate sounds for the set. The sounds start out nice, but quickly become tedious.)

If I can find Solar's old post on changing power sounds I'll send it to you, if you aren't already familiar with that kind of thing. Apparently it's pretty great for issues like that. 

Edit: Found it. 

Spoiler

 

 

34 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The only part I intend to have in this discussion is what I have been posting about, that by and large the animation times for KM is in keeping with other melee sets.

Understood. Just make sure you know what points Jay is referring to from the main post, otherwise the conversation won't go anywhere. For what it's worth, I get what your point is and don't much disagree (besides CS), and will note that speed is also kind of relative to damage. Knockout Blow is still "slow", but for its DPA its quite fast. Aside from Seismic Smash, it's the fastest of the damage scale. CS is the same damage scale, but slow and can't even crit. Burst is the same speed as FSC, but does less damage. It does less damage than Foot Stomp too, which is faster and also hits more targets.

 

So yes, while technically it is true that the cast time of KM powers isn't too far different from some other powersets, the fact KM powers suck, and have lower radius, and apply damage way later all makes its actual DPS slower, effective damage speed lower (enemies will die in content before the damage is applied, whereas FSC and others dont do this), and the power worse overall. When shortening animations further would actually be one effective method to raise KMs DPS, arguing over whether or not the powers are slow compared to other powers becomes a slightly obsolete endeavor. Cutting Cast Times always improves DPS, as does raising damage, so just presenting the fact KM has decent average speed is enough.

 

That being said...KM is definitely a slow powerset. I think it's actually the third slowest, I'll check. The distribution of speed is terrible. I mentioned this in the post (please read it lmao), but having a backloaded set makes it effectively slower even if it averages out to be similar to others. The big hitters are all 2 or more seconds of at-completion damage. Only Radiation Melee and Spines are slower, and in Spines case that's entirely dependent on if you pick two powers you certainly aren't incentivized to take...while also being good. Meanwhile, Radiation Melee is a godlike set that actually justifies its slow speed. There is more to the speed of a set than just the average of the cast times, but even in that regard it's only like...okay.

Edited March 11 by Monos King
Link

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Monos King said:

If I can find Inf's old post on changing power sounds I'll send it to you, if you aren't already familiar with that kind of thing. Apparently it's pretty great for issues like that.

 

Understood. Just make sure you know what points Jay is referring to from the main post, otherwise the conversation won't go anywhere. For what it's worth, I get what your point is and don't much disagree (besides CS), and will note that speed is also kind of relative to damage. Knockout Blow is still "slow", but for its DPA its quite fast. Aside from Seismic Smash, it's the fastest of the damage scale. CS is the same damage scale, but slow and can't even crit. Burst is the same speed as FSC, but does less damage. It does less damage than Foot Stomp too, which is faster and also hits more targets.

 

So yes, while technically it is true that the cast time of KM powers isn't too far different from some other powersets, the fact KM powers suck, and have lower radius, and apply damage way later all makes its actual DPS slower, effective damage speed lower (enemies will die in content before the damage is applied, whereas FSC and others dont do this), and the power worse overall. When shortening animations further would actually be one effective method to raise KMs DPS, arguing over whether or not the powers are slow compared to other powers becomes a slightly obsolete endeavor. Cutting Cast Times always improves DPS, as does raising damage, so just presenting the fact KM has decent average speed is enough.

 

That being said...KM is definitely a slow powerset. I think it's actually the third slowest, I'll check. The distribution of speed is terrible. I mentioned this in the post (please read it lmao), but having a backloaded set makes it effectively slower even if it averages out to be similar to others. The big hitters are all 2 or more seconds of at-completion damage. Only Radiation Melee and Spines are slower, and in Spines case that's entirely dependent on if you pick two powers you certainly aren't incentivized to take...while also being good. Meanwhile, Radiation Melee is a godlike set that actually justifies its slow speed. There is more to the speed of a set than just the average of the cast times, but even in that regard it's only like...okay.

I'd more argue that is a function of its damage values, smaller radius, and lack of crits than the animations. Anyway, it's not that I disagree with you. I mean, I like KM other than how tiresome the sounds get after a while, but I do listen to others and have heard their complaints about the set. I actually have read (most of) the OP, but I'm not in a position to have a definitive take on it. (I have one KM character because I can't convince myself putting up with the sounds is worth more than one character. [Though I do enjoy playing that character on the odd occasion I do.] And with only one KM character to my name, I am most definitely not in a position to argue against any improvements for the set.) I just find that whether I'm playing my KM on a team or teaming with someone else's KM, KM isn't doing any worse at hitting already defeated targets than any other set I've played or teamed with. (Yes, I get frustrated too when I attack a target but it is already defeated before my attack hits. That happens with every power set and AT I've experienced before. Especially on large, fast moving teams.) So I'm pretty emphatic about defending the set's speed as a review of animation times. Damage values, radius of effect, probability of secondary effects, chances of critting? Everyone else can debate those and pitch their ideas to the devs.

 

(Again, just because a set takes more hits to achieve the same effect, it does not make the set slow. It makes the set weak. And from a damage perspective, KM does have relatively light damage values when looking through City of Data between sets on the same AT.)

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

So I'm pretty emphatic about defending the set's speed as a review of animation times.

Well... I just re-tested with regards to a greater spectrum of powers being tested. I was correct that Kinetic Melee is in fact the third slowest power if looking at just an average of animation times. It was actually Staff however, and not Stone that was above Radiation Melee and KM. Staff averages at a 1.9 animation time, whereas KM averages at 1.8, and Rad at 1.87. Spines is fourth...but only if you include the toggle. Here's that list for you.

 

Spoiler

Dark Melee 1.6925 

Broadsword 1.745 

Mace 1.7575

Battle Axe 1.495

Dual Blades 1.73625 

Electrical Melee 1.5625 

Electric No Clap 1.61 

Energy Melee Fast ET 1.55375 

Fiery Melee 1.6725 

Ice Melee 1.6375 

Ice Melee (No Patch) 1.647 

Katana 1.3125 

Claws 1.395 

Kinetic Melee 1.81625 

Martial Arts 1.475 

Psionic Melee 1.7175 

Psionic No Boggle 1.677 

Radiation Melee 1.87875 

Rad No Irradiated 1.857 

Savage Melee 1.6437 

Spines 1.66375 

Spines No Quills 1.797 

Staff 1.9 shows what lacking power to swiften total does

Stone Melee 1.73375 

Street Justice 1.4175 

Super Strength 1.625 

SS no Hand Clap 1.681

 

Which brings us to the issue with determining a powersets speed from overall average animation time. Some powersets are actually faster if you include non-damage dealing quick cast abilities. Some are faster if you don't. But the actual metric of a powersets speed is from the rotations that are commonly, and optimally used. Along with their DPS. If you go by just all of the animations, then Spines is faster than Dual Blades which is...nah. 

 

Instead, the speed of the Optimal Rotations is used. KM's is Quick Strike ->Body Blow -> Smashing Blow -> Quick Strike-> Concentrated Strike. This takes 6.76 seconds and deals 73 DPS, as noted earlier. 

 

Meanwhile, something like Rad can do something like Contaminated Strike -> Radioactive Smash -> Contaminated -> Devastating Blow for 66 DPS before Contaminated and roughly 76.9 DPS with Contaminated and surrounded by 4 enemies. In only 5.83 seconds. Meanwhile, this is not even Radiations optimal rotation, and it IS Kinetic Melee's optimal rotation.

One would think glancing at the numbers Rad is slower than KM. But not truly.

 

And even if you just take the animation times, Kinetic Melee is third slowest. So, yeah, I'm preaching to the choir a bit with my overall point, but for the sake of documentation and discussion Kinetic Melee truly is very bad from literally every metric available, whether its animation speed, damage per second, damage per rotation, damage per attack. It's just...awful.

 

Also I found that sound FX link for you, post is edited above.

Edited March 12 by Monos King

[JayboH]

I'd like different sound fx for Savage much more than different for KM.  Savage's sound fx do not match the theme at all with a couple exceptions.

 

I mentioned DPS/DPA earlier and I am glad you agree.

[AlexEquinox]

Big fan of buffing KM in general, as it hasn't felt anywhere near as good to play since it got nerfed on NCservers. I think the main factors that make KM feel bad are it feeling slow and Concentrated Strike's poor crit mechanic, both of which are addressed here and is enough to gain my support already. As for unique features/mechanics, "Siphoned" seems like a good, thematic change to the set, and adding it to Kinetics would be a welcome addition to a set that otherwise doesn't have much in the way of damage mitigation.

Kinetic Potential is cool, but I'm not a fan of limiting the toggle that would be such a core part of the set - I would much rather see it turned into a clickable that can be perma'd with enough recharge, or an always active (even if that means lowering the values) toggle/passive ability. For similar reasons, I'm not a fan of the idea of a lockout mechanic, especially one as long as 30 seconds. Afaik, other set's lockout mechanics do not last this long, but maybe I'm wrong.

I assume Stalker's lowered Power Siphon cap is in order to offset getting capped stacks from BU, but it also feels bad that one AT's PS would be inferior to the rest. I'd change them to have the same 5 empowerment/10 cap as the other ATs, and have BU only grant stacks up to 6 (so being at 6 or more stacks already, BU would give none). I'd also like to see PS stacks to last even longer than the change already made to them (bumping it up to 10) to more reliably see use of the shortened animations/extra range.

I probably lean more towards faster animation times vs instant activations, as while long, the KM anims are pretty cool and lend towards the theme of building up energy for an attack.

Edited March 28 by AlexEquinox

[Monos King]

14 hours ago, AlexEquinox said:

Kinetic Potential is cool, but I'm not a fan of limiting the toggle that would be such a core part of the set - I would much rather see it turned into a clickable that can be perma'd with enough recharge, or an always active (even if that means lowering the values) toggle/passive ability. For similar reasons, I'm not a fan of the idea of a lockout mechanic, especially one as long as 30 seconds. Afaik, other set's lockout mechanics do not last this long, but maybe I'm wrong.

Well taken. I'm pretty conservative about the mechanic with stacks, so theres a lot of things weakening it here. However, the actual DMG buff can be acquired without Kinetic Potential, so it's not as much as a crux as it would be otherwise. 

 

Similar with the lockout, which is just to prevent KM from being the same as EM while having a uniquely clippable cast. The DPS numbers align well even with the lockout. But after testing, all of that might end up being unnecessary. 

[BrandX]

As I would love to see Kinetic Melee improved, I have thought, why not keep it simple?

Concentrated Strike.  No reason this shouldn't crit for more damage on Stalkers and Scrappers.  Let it critical strike for normal crit damage.  No "1/4 crit"  HOWEVER like it can now, it still recharges Power Siphon on a separate crit check, which they can give to Tankers and Brutes too.

 

Focused Burst.  Yes it's a ranged attack, but why not give it close to Total Focus level of damage?  Focused Burst is a 2.244 animation.  Total Focus is a 2.772 animation.  That range aspect isn't that big of a deal when you're a melee class likely to use it in melee range anyways.  Could give it Hold to allow it to use Hold Procs to up it's damage.  Or combination.  Such a nice animation, would love to see people using this attack more, including myself.

 

[BuildsAllTheThings]

Spent a decent amount of time thinking about it, so I'll post this and have done with it.

 

 

TL;DR for those notinclined to watch a stranger ramble about design philosophies, damage values, and set comparisons: The changes presented in this proposal would be  a net good, straight up. With some caveats. Namely, that it likely can't be released alone, other sets would need similar buffs. But over all this would be an amazing change.

 

 

The long version:

 

So, the proposed changes here represent at once all the good that was ever in city of heroes power sets to begin with, and some of the problems that come both with buffing them, and making sure that everything has a place somewhere in the game. What do I mean by that? Well, the changes here actually wouldn't be format warping. I've spent all day going over the math, for - hilariously, unrelated reasons - namely in measuring brute damage performance versus scrapper damage performance. Now, provided both at's are playing KM, brute's maintain a slightly over all higher sustained dps, scrappers higher burst, when appropriate crit windows line up.

 

You'd think then that this would be truly horrendous for other sets in general. How could most sets ever hope to keep up with such a ridiculous damage boost. You would however, be surprised. Most of the top performers would continue to perform well. In single player scenarios,  this might be the case, but most of COH's content is community focused. At most you might find that this is the new most effective sets for farmers, but even then. The thing about that is like any game's "meta", the power economy of farming has continued to evolve, itself a more communal affair now more often than not, with needs for people to talk to, buffers to look for, hitters, etcetera.  And the set doesn't have a tremendous access to great and consistent aoe's, even with the change, so it's unlikely to beat out radiation for aoe damage parity, or any of the other big hitters like Titan Weapons, Mace, or Battle Axe. This should be a good change!

 

The issue lies in its actual design philosophy, because the proposed changes make it an extremely generically good set. It goes with near any power combination, you have every reason in the world to run it with competitors like bio, fiery aura, radiation armor, etcetera.  And Homecoming's developers have expressed through actions, if aught else, that they've a dislike for things that would be overwhelmingly and generically good. The likely effect of this hitting live, would be a fantastic set, and then wanting to hit the reset button.

 

More over, it pushes out sets that already -are- underperforming. Your staff melee's, your scrapper StJ's, etcetera. This wouldn't inherently be awful mind you, it would just mean that more sets would require more changes like this. And that in and of itself I think is a meaningful, and altogether welcome breath of fresh air for players and designers alike, but! If someone wanted to implement and execute on these changes, it couldn't be released standalone. There would need to be another melee set brought up with it, that competes in other categories to really shine, and continue to encourage build diversity.  And it would mean COMMITTING to continued changes like this for other sets to carve out a niche, as development continued.

 

 

Itself not a bad thing, but it is the sort of change you'd want to keep eyes on.

[DemonSeed]

Anything to make me want to actually play my Kinetic tank again.