Monos King Posted March 8 Posted March 8 (edited) Introduction Spoiler Once upon a time, there was a powerset that was released. It took inspiration from fantastical martial arts, had amazing animations, a special build up, and hit hard. Really hard. In fact, it hit so hard, that for a time, it redefined the PvP meta. Because it wasn't really KM, it was one power in particular. Power Siphon -> Whatever old attacks you wanted -> Concentrated Strike. Crit? Repeat. People would roll up a KM scrapp to 30, head to sirens call, and make farms out of zone PvP. Just being a KM Scrapp made you the predator, and all other players prey. Farming for PvP IOs became not a chore, but a bodily function. Kinetic melee made billionaires out of people - just from being able to kill really really good. But obviously, this couldn't last. It wasn't just unintended behavior, it was overwhelmingly OP. Tales of older speak to it doing 3-4x the intended damage. But the moon would rise eventually, and it's eye could not be averted for more than a month. When the lunar gaze befell KM, the unrepentant oceans roared; with it a furious wave that would stop not with the sinking of only one power. The night the devs culled KM came with several other powers taking an undeserved fall. Repulsing Torrent received lower damage, Kinetic Melee quickly faded into obscurity, an inferior version of an inferior power - Energy melee dressed in a graceless gi. So today’s proposal is taken straight out of the Powerhouse Page of Power Design. We’ve got the gimmicks, we’ve got the goods. If you don’t like powerset proposals with those elements drop your /jranger at the porch, and I’ll have the dogs bring it in. Otherwise, let’s get this into motion. Special thanks to @Galaxy Brain and @Madvillain for tolerating my random DMs in regards to this. The Proposal (See Highlights at the bottom). The aim is to differentiate Kinetic Melee from Energy Melee, while also using its theme as a canal for it's improvements and additions. Kinetic Melee focuses on siphoning the momentum and kinetic energy from opponents to empower the users attacks. They should be a self-buff specialist of sorts, with an accompanying more prominent debuff component as well. Also, for a set focusing on the "Kinetic" the fact that complaints of speed are chief amongst it's excoriations is very disappointing. Also of note: -The lack of crits on heavy hitting attack is torturous on Scrappers -It's unique crit mechanic is entirely redundant on Stalkers. -Limitation of 5 stacks makes a fast recharging Power Siphon less impactful than other Build Ups -Wind-Ups are unsatisfying for little reward The below seeks to address these issues. Key: | Experimental/Requires Feedback, Special Mechanic, Support Set, Kinetic Melee | New Mechanic: Siphoned! Effect All Kinetic Melee Attacks have a chance to apply the Siphoned! debuff to enemies Siphoned! enemies are afflicted with a small (10%), non-stacking -recharge debuff The debuff lasts 15 seconds, and is unresistable. The duration is not affected by purple patch. Future attacks can replenish the duration of the debuff. Attacks that successfully applies Siphoned! will also grant Power Siphon stack Synergy with Kinetics; Kinetics support debuffs from Fulcrum Shift and Siphon Power also have a chance to apply Siphoned! Using Kinetic Melee attacks on a Siphoned! enemy will guarantee a stack of Power Siphon, which now caps at 10 stacks for Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers; caps at 6 stacks for Stalkers. Updated Power: Kinetic Potential (Formerly Power Siphon) Now a Limited Use Toggle that deactivates after 1 minute of use 2 minute recharge (Unenhanceable) (Cannot be slotted for recharge but can benefit from Alpha enhancements) Increases +To Hit for its duration, and increases the chance of KM powers to grant a Siphoned! debuff Minor user +Recharge buff Updated Mechanic: Power Siphon Stacks Now offers a scale 2.0 Damage bonus per stack (25% for Scrappers) Each stack lasts 6 8 seconds Caps at 10 stacks for Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes Caps at 6 stacks for Stalkers; Build Up instantly caps stacks along with its DMG buff Reaching certain stack thresholds empowers other KM attacks Once above 5 stacks (3 for Stalkers) the following powers receive a 30% cast time decrease while retaining normal damage Repulsing Torrent (2s > 1.54s) Burst (2.67s > 2.05s) Focused Burst (2 > 1.54)* Concentrated Strike (2.83 > 2.18)* Once above 5 stacks (3 for applicable on Stalkers) the following powers receive an area coverage increase Repulsing Torrent (45 degree arc > 60 degree arc) Burst (8ft > 10ft) Once above 5 stacks the following powers receive a range increase Focused Burst (40ft > 60ft) Repulsing Torrent (40ft > 60ft) Experimental: (These would be alternatives to the proposed cast time decreases on the above powers). The following powers are spenders, and would consume 5 stacks for their benefits. Concentrated Strike | Consumes 5 stacks for a nigh instant activation at 0.83s activation time Burst | Consumes 5 stacks for instant activation at 0 activation time These benefits can be used simultaneously for instant activation of both powers Updated Power: Concentrated Strike Now has a very high (80%) chance to apply Siphoned! to enemies Now possesses a minor crit, similar to Total Focus and Seismic Smash Only grants a stack of PS during a crit Once reached 5 PS stacks cast time decreases 30% (2.83 > 2.18)* Consumes 5 stacks for a nigh instant activation at 0.83s activation time Using the instant cast will inflict a Lockout for 30 seconds, While locked this power is not a spender Updated Power: Burst Has a very high (80%) chance to apply Siphoned! to enemies When afflicting Siphoned! enemies, has a moderate chance to grant Power Siphon stacks, but can grant a stack per enemy hit Once reached 5 PS stacks cast time decreases 30% (2.67 > 2.05) Once reached 5 PS stacks receives an area coverage increase (8ft > 10 ft) Updated Power: Focused Burst Once reached 5 PS stacks receives a 30% cast time decrease while retaining normal damage (2 > 1.54) Once reached 5 PS stacks receives a range increase (40ft > 60ft) Once reached 5 PS stacks cast time decrease 30% (2 > 1.54) Updated Power: Repulsing Torrent Can grant a stack per enemy hit Once reached 5 PS stacks receives a 30% cast time decrease while retaining normal damage (2s > 1.54s) Once reached 5 PS stacks receives a range increase (40ft > 60ft) Once reached 5 PS stacks receives an increase in area coverage (45 degree arc > 60 degree arc) Tables (Scrapper, Brute) Power Level Effect Quick Strike 1 Melee, Light DMG(Smash/Energy), Foe -DMG, Special Body Blow 1 Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Energy), Stun, Foe -DMG, Special Smashing Blow 2 Melee, High DMG(Smash/Energy), Foe Disorient -DMG, Special Kinetic Potential 6 Toggle, +To Hit, Special Burst 8 PBAoe Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Energy), Knockdown, Foe- DMG, Special Confront/Taunt 12 Ranged, Foe Taunt Repulsing Torrent 18 Ranged (Cone), Moderate DMG(Energy/Smash), Foe Knockback, Special Focused Burst 26 Ranged, High DMG(Smash/Energy), Knockdown, Foe -DMG, Special Concentrated Strike 32 Melee, Extreme DMG(Energy/Smash), Foe -DMG Disorient, Self +Special Tanker Power Level Effect Quick Strike 1 Melee, Light DMG(Smash/Energy), Foe -DMG Special Body Blow 1 Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Energy), Stun, Foe -DMG Special Smashing Blow 4 Melee, High DMG(Smash/Energy), Foe Disorient -DMG Special Taunt 10 Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Taunt Special Burst 16 PBAoE Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Energy), Knockdown, Foe -DMG Special Kinetic Potential 20 Self: +To Hit, +Special Repulsing Torrent 28 Ranged (Cone), Moderate DMG(Energy/Smash), Foe Knockback Special Focused Burst 35 Ranged, High DMG(Smash/Energy), Knockdown, Foe -DMG Special Concentrated Strike 38 Melee, Extreme DMG(Energy/Smash), Foe -DMG Disorient Special Stalker Power Level Effect Quick Strike 1 Melee, Light DMG(Smash/Energy), Foe -DMG Special Body Blow 1 Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Energy), Stun, Foe -DMG Special Smashing Blow 2 Melee, High DMG(Smash/Energy), Foe Disorient -DMG Special Assassin's Strike 6 Melee, Special DMG(Smashing, Energy) Build Up 8 Self +DMG, +To Hit, Special Placate 12 Ranged, Foe Placate, Self Stealth/Hide Burst 18 PBAoE Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Energy), Knockdown, Foe -DMG, Special Focused Burst 26 Ranged, High DMG(Smash/Energy), Knockdown, Foe -DMG Special Concentrated Strike 32 Melee, Extreme DMG(Energy/Smash), Foe -DMG Disorient, Self +Special Analysis, Reasoning, Concerns As noted earlier, the principal problems that are often discussed with Kinetic Melee are sluggish attacks, low damage, and a somewhat underwhelming mechanic in Power Siphon. For stalkers the auto recharge is obsolete entirely, and while the rest tend to feel the brunt of the other complaints the most. These changes are intended to address these complaints in the following ways. Speed Fixes The speed of the first three attacks for Kinetic Melee are actually pretty good. At 15% recharge bonus (afforded by a simple Offense Amplifier) you can do Quick Strike -> Body Blow -> Smashing Blow -> Quick Strike without pause, and gain 4 PS stacks which currently last 10s. The issue is with literally every other power. All of the other powers have ludicrous 2 and above second cast times. To make matters worse, the damage itself is only inflicted at the end of the animation. You have to endure the -full- animation before you can kill anything. Furthermore, the recharge of these powers are things like 12, 15, and 20 seconds. Too low to really proc benefit, high enough to be annoying as you level. Burst and Torrent are just DPA inferior Focus and Shockwave with higher rech. As such: Kinetic Potential offers a thematic 15% recharge bonus to help the recharge problems without cutting their base recharge and treading on claws 30% cast time reduction is possible on Burst, Torrent, and Concentrated Strike once above 5 stacks to speed along the damage that is inflicted 0.83s Concentrated Strike (with 30s lockout) and instant cast Focused Burst consumable for 5 stacks of PS Damage Fixes This is directly affected by the speed issues. The DPS of Quick Strike -> Body Blow -> Smashing Blow -> Quick Strike is about 68 DPS. For reference: Energy Punch -> Barrage -> Bone Smasher takes 3.43s to execute, and deals 257.75 dmg on a level 50 Scrapper, or 75 DPS. BA Beheader -> Chop -> Gash 83 DPS Stone Fist -> Stone Mallet -> Heavy Mallet 75.6 DPS And this isn't even the optimal rotation for the non KM melee powers. They can swap out and get better powers to kill waaay faster later on, meanwhile Body Blow -> Smashing Blow -> Concentrated Strike is still only 76 DPS. And Concentrated Strike cannot even crit. As such, the discrepancy becomes enormous on Scrapps and Stalks. As such: Concentrated Strike crit no longer recharges Build Up/Power Siphon, is given a small crit, the same as Total Focus and Seismic Smash. Concentrated Strike, Repulsing Torrent, and Burst receive a 30% cast time reduction when at or above 5 PS stacks Burst spends 5 PS stacks to gain instant cast, Concentrated Strike spends 5 PS to gain 0.83s cast (with 30s lockout) This means that while CS is on lockout, it still receives 30% reduction to cast time if above 5 PS stacks Power Siphon stacks now last 8 seconds, and each offer scale 2.0 Damage Bonus Animation Fixes Going along with the cast time reductions would be some animation changes during their enhanced states. Repulsing Torrent has it's animation cut to only deliver the final throw, and not the small charge up Spoiler Burst has it's animation cut to only deliver the final throw, and not the small charge up Spoiler Concentrated Strike has it's animation sped up, or has it's animation cut to only include the final move, skipping most of the wind up. Spoiler Damage Concerns -Isn't 10 stacks of PS a lot? Scrappers could potentially get a permanent 250% damage bonus! Spoiler Yes...potentially. It will definitely be potent, which is the point. None of the powers are getting an actual damage buff, only speed increases to moderate and high degrees. Kinetic Potential is a limited time toggle, meaning it's ability to benefit from Gaussian's Build Up proc will be very small, a mere 16.67% chance every second. With the power only having a minute uptime and 2 minute recharge, you will only ever have a 66% chance of triggering the proc every 120s, as compared to Build Ups 95% chance of triggering the proc every 90s(base) to 30s!(53% slotting + 112% global recharge). As such, much of the benefit from this mainstay from level 21 onwards is not present. Furthermore, spenders remove PS stacks and thus damage bonus, and Siphoned! is chance based. -Is this damage buff enough to help brutes? They already get a lot of damage bonuses Spoiler Yes. Fury damage bonus is 200%, enhancements will add 100%, and PS will grant another potential 200%. The Brute damage cap is something rarely reached. This is much less beneficial in PvP, however it is still very meaningful in that it gives Vigor slotting less trade-off, and when combined with the experimental CS and Burst instant casts. Build Up can be used much more frequently, allowing for more Build Up proc uses Build Up can use Burnout for further burst Siphoned! is chance based and requires a living enemy to be attacked so that the PS damage bonus is acquirable. Killing enemies quickly in an innate limiter on the buff potential Spenders limit the benefit of the damage buff by constantly exchanging the PS stacks for very fast attacks Cast Time Concerns -A zero and 0.83 activation time power that does Total Focus damage is insane, and kind of like Energy Transfer. Is this is a good idea? Spoiler Well, it is experimental, but it should work. The most optimal rotation with these changes would be Body Blow -> Smashing Blow -> Focused Burst -> Concentrated Strike, which would have a tremendous 158 DPS over 3.1 seconds. This would be even higher than the currently unrivaled Bone Smasher -> Total Focus -> Energy Transfer, which has 127 DPS over 4.8 seconds. However, there is a 30 second lockout on this occurrence. For most encounters, with CS having the proposed 30% cast reduction, and FB being instant, it will be only 92 DPS over a 5.28 second interval, slightly lower than the optimal battle axe rotation and optimal stone rotation which takes place over a shorter interval. So while at it's peak, it is beyond even Energy Melee...this isn't really the case. -Does a 30% cast reduction on only 3 powers make much difference? No idea if that's enough honestly. The area of effect increases will make the spread better, but those powers are pretty bad. Repulsing Torrent is so abysmal it might actually need even more, but the constant damage buff seems like it's good enough to balance it out on paper. At the very least, the ST damage will be quite good. Highlights (see Proposal for full details) Spoiler New Debuff and PS mechanic so that Damage Buffs Can Happen Without the Build Up Power Siphon is now Kinetic Potential, a limited time toggle which increases chance of applying debuff and gives +rech buffs AoE powers can grant multiple PS stacks PS lasts 8 seconds 10 Stacks possible of PS, Stalkers can get 6 stacks max Stalker BU also caps PS stacks Conditional animation speed reductions and changes on RT, Burst, FB, and CS 0 Activation Time and 0.83s Act Time on Burst and CS when consuming 5 stacks of PS Conclusions There have been many fine KM buff proposals, many of which I have enjoyed to see and would also like. Things like turning Torrent, CS, and Burst into individually extreme hitting attacks under certain conditions are also things I am fond of. But I have always felt as though KM needed speed to be truly thematic, so this proposal focuses on giving it an identity that's related to that. With the first power that has legitimate clipping potential on it's own, and the ability to build up to attacks with intensifying speed and debuffs, I think this one offers a unique possibility that gives it more identity. I also had a familiar idea of "each stack makes the next attack even faster" with something like 1 stack makes Quick Strike faster, 2 makes Body Blow Faster, etc etc...but that does require the creation of even more duplicate powers. Not mention it doesn't fix the abysmal numbers of KM. As always, check my math. I'm happy to continue the Kinetic Melee conversation with this piece, so please let me know criticisms and concerns in the replies. Edited March 11 by Monos King PS Change, Highlights 5 6 1 The Mastermind Enthusiast City of Heroes Lore Discord MM Global Changes | The MM Wishlist Temporary Powers | Omnibus' Alchemist Archetype Is The Game Too Easy (2021)
Monos King Posted March 8 Author Posted March 8 (edited) Think making the PS stacks go from 6s to 8s might be the superior option here, will add that. Edited March 8 by Monos King The Mastermind Enthusiast City of Heroes Lore Discord MM Global Changes | The MM Wishlist Temporary Powers | Omnibus' Alchemist Archetype Is The Game Too Easy (2021)
Major_Decoy Posted March 8 Posted March 8 3 hours ago, Monos King said: 2 minute recharge (Unenhanceable) (Cannot be slotted for recharge but can benefit from Alpha enhancements) This one is kind of a problem. If you can't slot it for an enhancement bonus then it can't benefit from Alpha Enhancements. Hamidon enhancements use the same code. IOs use different code. If a power takes sets and is effected by Recharge time bonuses, then it will have its recharge time reduced by the /recharge bonuses in sets even if you can't slot /recharge. So you'd be free to say "Can't be slotted for recharge but can be slotted with to-hit sets" and that would allow recharge time reduction, but it would still be entirely immune to the Alpha slot recharge reduction bonuses. (though not to Ageless) That being said, why a 2 minute recharge (Unenhanceable)? A toggle doesn't start recharging until after it's been turned off, so if it has a 1 minute maximum duration, you'd need 100% recharge reduction to have it up 50% of the time. 200% recharge reduction would give it a 40 second recharge and it'd be up 60% of the time. 300% recharge reduction: Up 60 seconds, down 30 seconds, 66% uptime. 1
Saiyajinzoningen Posted March 8 Posted March 8 I don't know enough about the games balance to determine if this is OP or not however KM needs some love the fact that 90% of viable KM builds only use the 1st few abilities to take advantage of its gimmick really Pidgeon holes the set the amount of thought and care that went into this suggestion is amazing 2 2 Its easy to criticize a suggestion but can you suggest an alternative?
BrandX Posted March 8 Posted March 8 I was recently thinking of ways to improve Kinetic Melee myself! Concentrated Strike for sure needs a partial crit at the very least (if not full crit) I was thinking of switching Power Siphon to a toggle or passive as well. However, I was thinking the toggle could stay on. Toggle would grant 1 Siphon Stack with an attack, stack up to however many times (figure 5 to 10), 1 stack would apply +To-Hit, +DMG and -DMG to target. The idea being now it keeps the stack coming as long as you keep attacking. It's already a sort of limited time version of Fury, so this would keep it like that. Kinda like the idea of adding +RCH to the Siphon to give it a Kinetic Energy melee cousin vibe. Stalker version could be that it grants a certain number of Siphon Stacks with Build Up use. I'd also tune up Focused Burst and Repulsing Torrent. Focused Burst, imo admittedly, should be made to be a worth while attack! Not just something to pick up to have a range attack 😛 Not sure on RT other than a bit better damage to make it good additional AOE pick up. Not sure I care for the idea of a toggle I can't keep on
Monos King Posted March 8 Author Posted March 8 13 hours ago, Major_Decoy said: This one is kind of a problem. If you can't slot it for an enhancement bonus then it can't benefit from Alpha Enhancements. Hamidon enhancements use the same code. IOs use different code. If a power takes sets and is effected by Recharge time bonuses, then it will have its recharge time reduced by the /recharge bonuses in sets even if you can't slot /recharge. So you'd be free to say "Can't be slotted for recharge but can be slotted with to-hit sets" and that would allow recharge time reduction, but it would still be entirely immune to the Alpha slot recharge reduction bonuses. (though not to Ageless) Interesting. I'm not all-knowledgeable so keep me in the loop here, but I was thinking more about how Incarnate Powers are affected by Alpha bonuses, but aren't slottable for anything. This is because they literally aren't accessible to be be enhanced by players, because if they showed up on the enhancement screen they actually could be enhanced that way (unless they have some kind of tag I'm not aware of). I know that there are often bugs with powers where they just don't take an enhancement IO that they should and can be affected by, but that could just be the fact those have to be added manually. The idea was that players just wouldn't be given the Category "enhance recharge speed", or that the incarnate would simply be flagged as an exception. It's in experimental since I don't know how that might actually work, and normal unenhanceable recharge should work just fine anyway. Quote That being said, why a 2 minute recharge (Unenhanceable)? A toggle doesn't start recharging until after it's been turned off, so if it has a 1 minute maximum duration, you'd need 100% recharge reduction to have it up 50% of the time. 200% recharge reduction would give it a 40 second recharge and it'd be up 60% of the time. 300% recharge reduction: Up 60 seconds, down 30 seconds, 66% uptime. There's a lot of overcompensation here (and elsewhere, see the original 6s duration of each PS stack) to guarantee the Damage Bonus is reigned in while still great in a way that's enjoyable. I ran those same recharge/uptime numbers and still included that simply because I wanted to ensure the Gaussian's benefit wouldn't start to become too prevalent with higher uptime. I think this is one of those things that would require testing to see if that's actually a moot concern, and having it up more often would actually be fine. Not to mention, Gaussian's could just be put into another 0ft toggle/auto if the player happens to have that, so it would be circumventable anyway in the right situation and they'd benefit. Still +recharge is very desirable, and KP would be letting players throw out the Siphoned! debuff around more. Either way, the goal is to actually make KM good, and comments like this reassure me we could use less restraint. I'm fine with the idea of it being enhanceable for recharge. The Mastermind Enthusiast City of Heroes Lore Discord MM Global Changes | The MM Wishlist Temporary Powers | Omnibus' Alchemist Archetype Is The Game Too Easy (2021)
Monos King Posted March 8 Author Posted March 8 10 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said: I don't know enough about the games balance to determine if this is OP or not however KM needs some love the fact that 90% of viable KM builds only use the 1st few abilities to take advantage of its gimmick really Pidgeon holes the set the amount of thought and care that went into this suggestion is amazing Appreciate the kind words, would hope that this alleviates exactly what you are talking about with the 1st few abilities. In practice there might need to be even more opportunity for the later powers to enmesh with the special mechanics (maybe burst gets a damage buff) but on paper it looks agreeable currently. The Mastermind Enthusiast City of Heroes Lore Discord MM Global Changes | The MM Wishlist Temporary Powers | Omnibus' Alchemist Archetype Is The Game Too Easy (2021)
Monos King Posted March 8 Author Posted March 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, BrandX said: The idea being now it keeps the stack coming as long as you keep attacking. It's already a sort of limited time version of Fury, so this would keep it like that. Kinda like the idea of adding +RCH to the Siphon to give it a Kinetic Energy melee cousin vibe. Well, in this suggestion the new Power Siphon, Kinetic Potential, isn't actually necessary to get the damage bonus and -dmg debuff already. Just applying the Siphoned! effect and then attacking causes you to build damage, its just that KP increases the chance of the Siphoned! debuff happening. So if you keep hitting the Siphoned enemy (or applying Siphon to new enemies) you get everlasting damage buff unless you miss or they die. I'm definitely open to the toggle being permanent too, just would need testing to see if that's appropriate or perhaps overtuned. Also I'd love a full CS crit. I hate small crits. Think we got confirmation it'll never happen, but I'm still in favor. Edited March 8 by Monos King The Mastermind Enthusiast City of Heroes Lore Discord MM Global Changes | The MM Wishlist Temporary Powers | Omnibus' Alchemist Archetype Is The Game Too Easy (2021)
JayboH Posted March 8 Posted March 8 Haven't read it yet (about to go eat) but I would think KM's main problem has always been slow animation/activation. I remember it was best on Stalkers due to the AT set. Flint Eastwood
Rudra Posted March 8 Posted March 8 19 minutes ago, JayboH said: Haven't read it yet (about to go eat) but I would think KM's main problem has always been slow animation/activation. I remember it was best on Stalkers due to the AT set. Except it really isn't. KM is about as fast as some other power sets. What makes KM feel slow is when the effects are applied in the animation. KM typically applies its effects at or near the end of the animation. Other sets apply their effects sooner in the animation.
Monos King Posted March 9 Author Posted March 9 24 minutes ago, Rudra said: Except it really isn't. KM is about as fast as some other power sets. What makes KM feel slow is when the effects are applied in the animation. KM typically applies its effects at or near the end of the animation. Other sets apply their effects sooner in the animation. Pretty much, and I touch on that a little. The first three powers are some of the fastest available, and can get a decent low level DPS out of them. Burst has the same cast as Fire Sword Circle, Whirling Sword/Mace, and most breath attacks. It just only does damage at the end, and also sucks. It would suck even if the damage were upfront. Burst is a bad damaging power and doesnt have any real secondary effects to compensate. And Focused Burst, while offensive, is faster than Hurl, Boulder, and Impale. Of course, those sets also have something great going for them and just also happen to have a ranged attack. Earlier in the post is a quick DPS comparison, KM is genuinely one of the worst in game with ST and AoE. The issue with speed is primarily one of dissonance with theme, and the fact the powerset sucks at doing damage. Its kinetic, we want it to be fast. We're expecting it to be stronger due to what we're seeing, but with the lacking damage all the fancy windups becomes a clutter preventing us from getting anything done. Torrent is true trash in both damage and area coverage, Burst is okay if it does dmg upfront, FB is good in a vacuum but is in KM instead, so... There's also the distribution of long casts in the powerset. Stone is generally slower than KM, but it's strongest hit is swift. Most melee powers are fast to moderate in their attacks all the way up until the main AoE and the strongest attack. KM, instead, has front loaded swiftness in weak attacks, and then everything else is slow or very slow. Every other slow melee set is simultaneously really good, except KM. The Mastermind Enthusiast City of Heroes Lore Discord MM Global Changes | The MM Wishlist Temporary Powers | Omnibus' Alchemist Archetype Is The Game Too Easy (2021)
JayboH Posted March 9 Posted March 9 3 hours ago, Rudra said: Except it really isn't. KM is about as fast as some other power sets. What makes KM feel slow is when the effects are applied in the animation. KM typically applies its effects at or near the end of the animation. Other sets apply their effects sooner in the animation. Pretty sure I've seen KM being the slowest set in tests for taking pylons or maps or whatever, making it one of the worst melee sets if not THE worst. Flint Eastwood
Rudra Posted March 9 Posted March 9 5 minutes ago, JayboH said: Pretty sure I've seen KM being the slowest set in tests for taking pylons or maps or whatever, making it one of the worst melee sets if not THE worst. I don't do pylon tests and don't track them, so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that looking at the set's animation times compared to other melee sets, it isn't the slowest. And looking at the specific powers themselves, the power effects are applied later than other power sets for the same animation time. You can check City of Data to see what I am talking about.
JayboH Posted March 9 Posted March 9 4 hours ago, Rudra said: I don't do pylon tests and don't track them, so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that looking at the set's animation times compared to other melee sets, it isn't the slowest. And looking at the specific powers themselves, the power effects are applied later than other power sets for the same animation time. You can check City of Data to see what I am talking about. So... it applies effects slower than other sets? Flint Eastwood
Rudra Posted March 9 Posted March 9 2 minutes ago, JayboH said: So... it applies effects slower than other sets? Yes and no. Regardless of when the damage is applied in the animation, you still have to wait out the animation before launching the next attack. So as far as attack rate goes, KM is not slower. Per attack, the damage is applied later in the animation than most other attacks, but you are still spending the same amount of time on each attack from its animation before the next attack as you are for most other melee sets. So yes, the damage is applied later in the animation giving most players the perception the set is slower, but as for animation times, recharge times, and the ability to chain attacks to take down targets, it is the same.
Monos King Posted March 9 Author Posted March 9 I think it might also be good to have stalkers AS adding a PS stack, will add that. The Mastermind Enthusiast City of Heroes Lore Discord MM Global Changes | The MM Wishlist Temporary Powers | Omnibus' Alchemist Archetype Is The Game Too Easy (2021)
JayboH Posted March 9 Posted March 9 12 hours ago, Rudra said: Yes and no. Regardless of when the damage is applied in the animation, you still have to wait out the animation before launching the next attack. So as far as attack rate goes, KM is not slower. Per attack, the damage is applied later in the animation than most other attacks, but you are still spending the same amount of time on each attack from its animation before the next attack as you are for most other melee sets. So yes, the damage is applied later in the animation giving most players the perception the set is slower, but as for animation times, recharge times, and the ability to chain attacks to take down targets, it is the same. So you corpse blast way more often basically on teams Flint Eastwood
Rudra Posted March 9 Posted March 9 14 minutes ago, JayboH said: So you corpse blast way more often basically on teams Not per the threads complaining about other power sets corpse blasting on teams. From what I've seen/experienced from my KM character and others I've teamed with? KM doesn't wind up hitting defeated targets any more than anyone else.
JayboH Posted March 9 Posted March 9 11 minutes ago, Rudra said: Not per the threads complaining about other power sets corpse blasting on teams. From what I've seen/experienced from my KM character and others I've teamed with? KM doesn't wind up hitting defeated targets any more than anyone else. Logically that doesn't make sense if what you said earlier was true. Strange. Flint Eastwood
Rudra Posted March 9 Posted March 9 2 minutes ago, JayboH said: 14 minutes ago, Rudra said: Not per the threads complaining about other power sets corpse blasting on teams. From what I've seen/experienced from my KM character and others I've teamed with? KM doesn't wind up hitting defeated targets any more than anyone else. Logically that doesn't make sense if what you said earlier was true. Strange. My guess is either because the team isn't coordinating attacks on the same target, thus reducing the likelihood of extra attacks being launched at say a minion, or they are coordinating against a robust target. All I can say for certain is that KM's animation times are comparable to most other melee sets, it applies its damage later in the animation than other sets which is why it feels slower to many players, though that difference in application time is not by much, and I have not personally witnessed either my own KM or others wasting a perceivable number of attacks on defeated targets any more than other members of the team.
JayboH Posted March 9 Posted March 9 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Rudra said: My guess is either because the team isn't coordinating attacks on the same target, thus reducing the likelihood of extra attacks being launched at say a minion, or they are coordinating against a robust target. All I can say for certain is that KM's animation times are comparable to most other melee sets, it applies its damage later in the animation than other sets which is why it feels slower to many players, though that difference in application time is not by much, and I have not personally witnessed either my own KM or others wasting a perceivable number of attacks on defeated targets any more than other members of the team. So if everyone attacks the same target at the exact same time, KM will likely end up corpse-blasting due to your explanation of how the set works. Sounds like everyone's description of it being slow is mechanically correct due to the results of such scenarios. What would you do to balance the set? Edited March 9 by JayboH Flint Eastwood
Rudra Posted March 9 Posted March 9 (edited) 6 minutes ago, JayboH said: 12 minutes ago, Rudra said: My guess is either because the team isn't coordinating attacks on the same target, thus reducing the likelihood of extra attacks being launched at say a minion, or they are coordinating against a robust target. All I can say for certain is that KM's animation times are comparable to most other melee sets, it applies its damage later in the animation than other sets which is why it feels slower to many players, though that difference in application time is not by much, and I have not personally witnessed either my own KM or others wasting a perceivable number of attacks on defeated targets any more than other members of the team. So if everyone attacks the same target at the exact same time, KM will likely end up corpse-blasting due to your explanation of how the set works. Sounds like everyone's description of it being slow is mechanically correct due to the results of such scenarios. What would you do to balance the set? Edited 2 minutes ago by JayboH I would balance it by not having everyone blasting the same target unless it was something that needed it. Edit: Here is the problem I have with your proposed scenario. If you have your team all blast a single target that cannot weather such a barrage, then a variable number of team members, most likely a large number of said team members, just blasted a defeated target. Even if all their attacks were to hit at the same time. Edited March 9 by Rudra
Saiyajinzoningen Posted March 9 Posted March 9 6 minutes ago, Rudra said: I would balance it by not having everyone blasting the same target unless it was something that needed it. Edit: Here is the problem I have with your proposed scenario. If you have your team all blast a single target that cannot weather such a barrage, then a variable number of team members, most likely a large number of said team members, just blasted a defeated target. Even if all their attacks were to hit at the same time. yup and even then KM always hits last 🤣 Its easy to criticize a suggestion but can you suggest an alternative?
JayboH Posted March 9 Posted March 9 3 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said: yup and even then KM always hits last 🤣 That's my entire point. Mechanically it's slow. No need to defend the set or be contrary to those who feel the set is slow, because it truly is. Balancing it by not having everyone blasting the same target? That's not balancing it at all. That's avoiding the subject and blindly defending a power set choice. 1 Flint Eastwood
Rudra Posted March 9 Posted March 9 3 minutes ago, JayboH said: 9 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said: yup and even then KM always hits last 🤣 That's my entire point. Mechanically it's slow. No need to defend the set or be contrary to those who feel the set is slow, because it truly is. Balancing it by not having everyone blasting the same target? That's not balancing it at all. That's avoiding the subject and blindly defending a power set choice. So given the scenario you provided, where everyone blasts the exact same target at the exact same time, how would you balance the other character's powers to make up for the fact that they also blasted a defeated target? 1
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