Loose Ends (Possible Spoilers?)

[Scarlet Shocker]

This has been a subject nurdling in the back of my mind for a little while without necessarily getting to the fore and making itself apparent.

 

However this thread

 

got me thinking seriously about it and it occurs to me that there are a ton of loose ends, some dating back a long time that haven't ever been tied off.

 

I'm trying to think of specifics but it seems like we rarely ever get story lines completed - and the Praetorian arc(s) got dropped IIRC because Matt Miller decided we'd got bored with Praetoria before it was finished. Regardless of how you view that notion it seems it would be great to get some of the older tales wound up.

 

Frostfire is one such thread that isn't just dangling, it's painful to watch. Frostfire was an epic encounter in the Hollows arc, one of the unforgettable stories in the lore of our City but then his rehabilitation - which still seems incomplete - was an epic disappointment, making damp squibs look exciting and entertaining in comparison.

 

Scirocco - More disappointment. I appreciate this is one of the last of the live "big" stories and perhaps didn't get the love it deserved because devs knew the game was doomed but it was fundamentally poor and didn't do a signature character justice. I get they wanted to move him to the light side, but I felt no compassion or empathy for him in that story

 

Spoiler

and Silver Mantis' end was uncharacteristic also which struck me as jarring rather than heroic

 

Whilst I love the first revamp to RWZ and the Vanguard/Lady Grey/Rikti arcs there that story also got dropped and hasn't progressed. Matt Miller mischievously said Lady Grey was a "sleeper agent" and she does have a cut scene with Lord Nemesis that strongly indicates they have a long, complex history and yet we've never been given an opportunity to learn about that.

 

Similarly, Hero One seems to be inhabiting some kind of mysterious UndeadRikti status, where he is not alive and not dead (and both in pain.) 

 

He has a shrine (which curiously is hidden away from public gaze - I find that very odd in itself. Most heroes have great works built in their honour so the public can remember their sacrifice - his is tucked away in the depths of Atlas City Hall.) But what is his actual status? Is he cured?

 

And whilst we are on the subject of Rikti - the two factions seem no closer to reaching an accord - and yet they still come out and attack us from their crashed craft in RWZ. Why have Vanguard and the Heroes put that issue to bed yet? Stop them invading and force them to the negotiating table!

 

Sister Psyche got a dreadful deal in "Who Will Die?"

Spoiler

I get that it was meant to come as a shock because it was the player base already anticipated that Statesman had to die in that arc so I guess the writers felt they needed to kill somebody else off. Sister P and Penny Yin had similar powers - and Penny was one of our lead Dev's fave creations so instead of disposing of somebody who is reasonably unloved ***coughSynapsecough*** Sister P got the chop.

 

That of course begs the question why Aurora didn't come into play again given that there was a pre-existing relationship already - and that in itself is a story definitely worth telling - maybe there's a whole mid-level Aurora arc to be discovered at some point.

 

 

There are plenty of other loose ends here - I have a couple of others that spring to mind but I know few of us enjoy walls of text so I will leave it here and invite you to bring us your reminiscences of loose ends and how they could be handled.

 

I will give you one potential solution to a couple of the loose ends I've covered here. I hope you think it makes some sense.

 

Spoiler

Scirocco enlists some heroes help to reclaim Silver Mantis from Mot, and in doing so, dies a strong, heroic death. Mantis lives and returns to  Arachnos, replacing Scirocco and his arcs.

 

Frostfire, realising that the heroes will never take him to his hearts gets to go red-side and take his place as Silver Mantis' side-kick as she was to Scirocco - this gives the opportunity for him to have good villain and hero arcs. Villain arc could involve breaking him out of the Zig, hero arcs could involve trying (and failing) to persuade him to return to the blue side.

 

[Glacier Peak]

@Scarlet Shocker I know you are a fan of hidden spots - in the last page update the devs added a hidden easter egg in RWZ. I only mention this because it advances the story for one of the end game enemy factions. 

Edited March 25 by Glacier Peak

[Glacier Peak]

30 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Frostfire is one such thread that isn't just dangling, it's painful to watch. Frostfire was an epic encounter in the Hollows arc, one of the unforgettable stories in the lore of our City but then his rehabilitation - which still seems incomplete - was an epic disappointment, making damp squibs look exciting and entertaining in comparison.

Also - Frostfire has been making his way in to the new stories that Homecoming have been producing. Dr. Stribbling's Rogue Arc is one example, but I believe he was added to another arc as well.

[tidge]

My issue with "loose ends" is essentially this: I did not like the shift from circular/ever-green "story-telling" content to "arcs with consequences". YMMV.

 

Examples of what I like:

• First Ward, which lets your character make big changes... but then everything is put back in the box in a way that it seems completely believable the next time you zone in.
• Classic Blue side content, like Dr. Vahz... because I can easily imagine him slipping out and repeating his same mad schemes
• The Patron arcs Red Side (and to some extent the path of the red-sider), because playing them through leaves a sense of accomplishment that something was earned. I know not everyone feels this way, but for me a level 50 red-sider that has defeated Lord Recluse feels so much more accomplished than a blue sider who finishes their path to level 50 by doing Portal corps missions.

What I don't like:

• The narrative of "Who will Die?". The missions themselves are fine, it's mire that playing that content makes a LOT of the rest of the game feel weird... like all the other times you interact with Ms. Liberty or Manticore.
• The Death of Praetorian Earth. I don't often play Gold content... but even so, it has got to be something like at least 10% of the available content... so why not keep it ever-green?
• The Incarnate content. I grok that it is the rationale for an ever-increasing set of powers for players hungry to be moar betta. I simply don't enjoy "break the world" stories.... plus everything that involves Positron now makes me consider the character to be one of the biggest jerks in the game.

[Scarlet Shocker]

11 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

@Scarlet Shocker I know you are a fan of hidden spots - in the last page update the devs added a hidden easter egg in RWZ. I only mention this because it advances the story for one of the end game enemy factions. 

 

I must check that out. Thanks!

[Scarlet Shocker]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

My issue with "loose ends" is essentially this: I did not like the shift from circular/ever-green "story-telling" content to "arcs with consequences". YMMV.

 

Examples of what I like:

• First Ward, which lets your character make big changes... but then everything is put back in the box in a way that it seems completely believable the next time you zone in.
• Classic Blue side content, like Dr. Vahz... because I can easily imagine him slipping out and repeating his same mad schemes
• The Patron arcs Red Side (and to some extent the path of the red-sider), because playing them through leaves a sense of accomplishment that something was earned. I know not everyone feels this way, but for me a level 50 red-sider that has defeated Lord Recluse feels so much more accomplished than a blue sider who finishes their path to level 50 by doing Portal corps missions.

What I don't like:

• The narrative of "Who will Die?". The missions themselves are fine, it's mire that playing that content makes a LOT of the rest of the game feel weird... like all the other times you interact with Ms. Liberty or Manticore.
• The Death of Praetorian Earth. I don't often play Gold content... but even so, it has got to be something like at least 10% of the available content... so why not keep it ever-green?
• The Incarnate content. I grok that it is the rationale for an ever-increasing set of powers for players hungry to be moar betta. I simply don't enjoy "break the world" stories.... plus everything that involves Positron now makes me consider the character to be one of the biggest jerks in the game.

 

It's a big world out there and room for all perspectives. I tend to agree - it's one reason why MacDonalds is so successful, because you can go into any one of their places and get (roughly) the same product. That's comforting. But I also think consequences have their place, doubly so in a two decade old game where character development is a core component from the moment you create your first toon.

 

I don't mind "break the world" in one sense so long as it can be put back together in the end (one of my big gripes with Avengers: Endgame was how it changed everything and not for the better) so it at least makes sense... and I think that with our game the timelines and Praetoria just added layers of confusion. But, we are where we are and mustn't undo that because that would be the worst outcome. We can only build on what we have.

[lemming]

Don't you mean Ice Mistral instead of Silver Mantis?    And Ice did change a bit from the DA experience.

[Scarlet Shocker]

2 hours ago, lemming said:

Don't you mean Ice Mistral instead of Silver Mantis?    And Ice did change a bit from the DA experience.

 

Yes, probably.

 

If she changed, I have missed that. Where would I find it?

[lemming]

26 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Yes, probably.

 

If she changed, I have missed that. Where would I find it?

When doing the Mr. G arc, there are Arachnos talking about how both Scirocco and Ice Mistral act different since coming back from DA.

[Scarlet Shocker]

Just now, lemming said:

When doing the Mr. G arc, there are Arachnos talking about how both Scirocco and Ice Mistral act different since coming back from DA.

I thought Mot ate her?

 

(also Mot is a stupid name. In the UK it's a regular car check!)

[eiynp]

People with superpowers could evidently survive for a while inside Mot while it consumed them, so she presumably is freed in the DD trial

 

The idea was apparently (per ye olde lore bible) that she and scirocco would do a full face turn after DA, with manticore joining arachnos. But yanno, game shutdown

[Scarlet Shocker]

3 hours ago, eiynp said:

People with superpowers could evidently survive for a while inside Mot while it consumed them, so she presumably is freed in the DD trial

 

The idea was apparently (per ye olde lore bible) that she and scirocco would do a full face turn after DA, with manticore joining arachnos. But yanno, game shutdown

 

I wouldn't object to Manti going dark but do you have any specific reference to "ye olde lore bible" that we can check?  I hate Manti almost as much as I hate Scirocco - Manti is a low grade bat/iron man clone - tech billionaire with a shit ton of toys (which in today's world seems laughable)

 

I may be missing out on Lore/Mission arcs but I've seen nothing past Mot eating them. If there is something I would love you to point me at it. I do note that  you say "presumably" so I <presume> that you may be filling in gaps inyour own mind rather than quoting actual lore. Forgive if I am wrong.

[Major_Decoy]

The loose ends that bother me most are the ones in Praetor Merchand's arc in Brickstown. Pretty much all of your friends from First Ward and Night Ward show up in two missions and then you never hear from them again. Hero side just kind of gets screwed on that. I mean, the villain side arc, you meet up with a whole bunch of people you might have interacted with, and depending on how you've handled things, they're willing to help you. Yeah, it sucks that you're messing things up for Penny if you were a Warden before swapping earths, and I won't run that arc on characters that don't want to betray her.

 

But hero side sucks.

[The Chairman]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I may be missing out on Lore/Mission arcs but I've seen nothing past Mot eating them. If there is something I would love you to point me at it. I do note that  you say "presumably" so I <presume> that you may be filling in gaps inyour own mind rather than quoting actual lore. Forgive if I am wrong.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Dream_Doctor

 

The debriefing after the final mission states that Scirocco returned to Grandville with Ice Mistral.

[Techwright]

10 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

(also Mot is a stupid name. In the UK it's a regular car check!)

 

The name and general concepts predate the game substantially.

[Scarlet Shocker]

6 hours ago, The Chairman said:

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Dream_Doctor

 

The debriefing after the final mission states that Scirocco returned to Grandville with Ice Mistral.

 

There's a lot to read there and it strikes me as being something of a hand wave, especially when it's such an important event happening to a signature character but ho hum. Thanks for the explanation!

 

 

3 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

The name and general concepts predate the game substantially.

Thanks.  That was deffo a TYDKYDK moment.

 

 

[lemming]

4 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

There's a lot to read there and it strikes me as being something of a hand wave, especially when it's such an important event happening to a signature character but ho hum. Thanks for the explanation!

Part of it is because a lot of Issue 24 covered this which wasn't released live.    If the game hadn't gone under, there probably would have been more resolution to the events.

[Scarlet Shocker]

13 minutes ago, lemming said:

Part of it is because a lot of Issue 24 covered this which wasn't released live.    If the game hadn't gone under, there probably would have been more resolution to the events.

 

That makes a lot of sense

[eiynp]

16 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

I wouldn't object to Manti going dark but do you have any specific reference to "ye olde lore bible" that we can check?  I hate Manti almost as much as I hate Scirocco - Manti is a low grade bat/iron man clone - tech billionaire with a shit ton of toys (which in today's world seems laughable)

 

I may be missing out on Lore/Mission arcs but I've seen nothing past Mot eating them. If there is something I would love you to point me at it. I do note that  you say "presumably" so I <presume> that you may be filling in gaps inyour own mind rather than quoting actual lore. Forgive if I am wrong.

 

If you do all of dream doc's missions (including the one where he sends you to actually do the DD trial) he'll have some dialogue that provides minimal followup; Scirocco and Mistral escape and return to grandeville, dominatrix is in custody and mis lib wants to help her, etc. We also see during the trial that supers Mot consumed aren't like, instantly devoured; they get trapped in there for a while

 

re: manticore, there is a lot of stuff in the Lore AMAs from various years about it. It's vague and sometimes contradictory, because it's different writers talking about their ideas for a storyline that obviously never got finalized. But their idea seems to have been that Scirocco and Mistral would go hero (replacing or getting their own TFs, etc), Red Widow would take Scirocco's place in arachnos, and manticore would become something of an evil vigilante either as the head of wyvern, or trying to take arachnos down from the inside (again, it's unclear.) All the lore bible/ama stuff is hosted on the HC wiki if you want to dig through it

[Scarlet Shocker]

4 hours ago, eiynp said:

 

If you do all of dream doc's missions (including the one where he sends you to actually do the DD trial) he'll have some dialogue that provides minimal followup; Scirocco and Mistral escape and return to grandeville, dominatrix is in custody and mis lib wants to help her, etc. We also see during the trial that supers Mot consumed aren't like, instantly devoured; they get trapped in there for a while

 

re: manticore, there is a lot of stuff in the Lore AMAs from various years about it. It's vague and sometimes contradictory, because it's different writers talking about their ideas for a storyline that obviously never got finalized. But their idea seems to have been that Scirocco and Mistral would go hero (replacing or getting their own TFs, etc), Red Widow would take Scirocco's place in arachnos, and manticore would become something of an evil vigilante either as the head of wyvern, or trying to take arachnos down from the inside (again, it's unclear.) All the lore bible/ama stuff is hosted on the HC wiki if you want to dig through it

 

Useful. Thanks. That's filled in a lot of gaps.

 

I guess I'd love to ask our current devs if they plan to use any of the live devs inputs and/or ideas for newer content.

 

I would imagine that they are reluctant to give much away though