Which Widow & Why? (the skimpy version)

[tidge]

I enjoy my "Ranged/Control" Fortunata most, but it does suffer from a somewhat reduced amount of direct DPS by not having the melee attacks. I have tri-builds, so the other two builds focus on different approaches... yes, this could cost something resembling a "fortune" I suppose... but being a great team asset doesn't require a huge investment, except in power choices.

 

The build I enjoy most has this going for it (I haven't used respec in a while, but probably should given changes)

 

TK Blast (holding 5xATO Dominion of Arachnos)

Subdue (holding 6xATO Spider's Bite)

Dominate (Franken-slotted for damage and %damage)

 

^ I believe those three choices hurt my DPS quite a bit, partially because of their nature but mostly because it is where I invested the choice of powers and the slots... the single target weak sauce is somewhat sad! The 'better' perfoming options come from:

 

Psychic Scream (franken-slotted)

Psychic Wail (Armageddon)

Invoke Panic + Intimidate (from Presence)

Aura of Confusion + Confuse

 

Along with three attacks from Mu Mastery

 

I won't post the build, as it predates the last two rounds of major HC changes (earlier power picks, the recent VEAT change). I'm not crazy about how it leaned on the Mu Mastery set for more attacks. but they were also serving as a place for slots to get set bonuses I wanted. Because of the earlier power availability scheme, I fit in the team/leadership powers plus a rather full suite of Presence pool to supplement high positional defenses and scaling damage resistances. This character still goes through Hard Mode content pretty well despite not leveraging a more modern approach to power selections.

 

 

 

[twozerofoxtrot]

2 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

I don't understand this part. Please elaborate

 

Kaizen's response is correct but I'll dig into the details.

 

TPK = total party kill; a wipe. 

 

Contagious Confusion Proc = The proc IO from the Contagious Confusion Very Rare set has a chance to inflict a Mag 3 Confuse on an enemy that propagates to nearby enemies, which last 10 seconds. This 10 second Mag 3 Confuse from the proc will stack with the 27.5 second Mag 3 Confuse that Aura of Confusion has, meaning it will affect even bosses (during those first 10 seconds; if they aren't immune).

 

Because of the high Recharge on Aura of Confusion, even if you full slotted it for recharge you're guaranteed to have Contagious Confusion proc on at least one enemy in a large group, which will start the propagation.

That said, even without this endgame slotting Aura is still very strong for redirecting damage from LTs and Minions.

 

 

For the penultimate example of how Aura of Confusion can save your bacon, go to 3:00 of this Trapdoor run (Kanil's first from the eponymous thread) and watch how they go from almost dead to smearing the +4/8 Council and Arachnos against the walls.

Edited April 12 by twozerofoxtrot

[Scarlet Shocker]

8 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Fire Aura of Confusion and pretty much every mob will start attack each other. Taking the pressure off the team.

 

I actually wondered what you meant by TPK. That is not a TLA I'm familiar with!

[Scarlet Shocker]

6 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

Kaizen's response is correct but I'll dig into the details.

 

TPK = total party kill; a wipe. 

 

Contagious Confusion Proc = The proc IO from the Contagious Confusion Very Rare set has a chance to inflict a Mag 3 Confuse on an enemy that propagates to nearby enemies, which last 10 seconds. This 10 second Mag 3 Confuse from the proc will stack with the 27.5 second Mag 3 Confuse that Aura of Confusion has, meaning it will affect even bosses (during those first 10 seconds; if they aren't immune).

 

Because of the high Recharge on Aura of Confusion, even if you full slotted it for recharge you're guaranteed to have Contagious Confusion proc on at least one enemy in a large group, which will start the propagation.

That said, even without this endgame slotting Aura is still very strong for redirecting damage from LTs and Minions.

 

 

For the penultimate example of how Aura of Confusion can save your bacon, go to 3:00 of this Trapdoor run (Kanil's first from the eponymous thread) and watch how they go from almost dead to smearing the +4/8 Council and Arachnos against the walls.

 

 

Thanks. That's what I needed to know. I am familiar with Contagious Confusion proc since I really enjoy plant as a power set and it turns Seeds of Confusion into something wonderful. It was mostly TPK. I've never heard that - I'm far more familiar with Team Wipe

 

Also very impressive run by Kanil.

 

Leads me on to my next question - do I mix and match powers from the Fortunata pools and the Training & Teamwork poos. It seems there's some useful powers in Widow Training and Teamwork

Edited April 12 by Scarlet Shocker

[twozerofoxtrot]

9 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Leads me on to my next question - do I mix and match powers from the Fortunata pools and the Training & Teamwork poos.

 

It's certainly an option. That's what I was referring to in my original response when discussing the so-called Blood Widow build.

[tidge]

20 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Leads me on to my next question - do I mix and match powers from the Fortunata pools and the Training & Teamwork poos. It seems there's some useful powers in Widow Training and Teamwork

 

With Fortunata, I don't reach outside the VEAT choices for "teamwork" powers, except possibly as some sort of very late power-pick that can also be an Enhancement mule. Earlier in builds I could usually find some number of power pool picks that (in my mind) improve some aspect of team performance or personal Quality-of-Life in a more obvious way.

[Scarlet Shocker]

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

 

 

Struggling to copy my build to the forum but hopefully the data chunk will give something to go on. Very close to the Fortunata build in KaizenSoze's Intro thread. I'm pretty happy with it

 

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Struggling to copy my build to the forum but hopefully the data chunk will give something to go on. Very close to the Fortunata build in KaizenSoze's Intro thread. I'm pretty happy with it

 

I took a first hack at it. Tried to stay somewhat in the build budget you've shown in your post, removed Strike for TT:Vengeance, as I think you have enough ST options between Dominate, Follow Up, Lunge, Telekinetic Blast, and Scramble Thoughts. In the image you'll see a bit more defense and S/L resistance, along with more recharge. Some downside... your net end recovery went down slightly, and your regeneration and max HP took a hit. You can adjust things to get some of that back, if you like. Scramble Thoughts slotting might be my first choice in ditching some recharge to gain back those health stats.

 

 

Shocker Widow - Bopper Edit.mbd

[Scarlet Shocker]

I thought I'd replied to this. Thanks for the build.

 

Gave her a good work out last night, about 3 hours in First Ward, so tough content on a pretty good team and she is a lot less impressive post-respec than before. I far preferred her as a stock widow than I do as a nascent fortunata. Had to turn off XP to ensure we didn't outlevel content so that's an entire session without having to worry about learning new powers and it seemed a lot less satisfying than previously.

 

I do appreciate that there is a drop off in the mid-level range in terms of powers and abilities. Lower levels are pretty impressive as a new character but this does seem to be quite sub-par despite that, compared to regular ATs.

 

It's made me wonder if I shouldn't respec into the stock widow and use that as a core focus. How viable is that?

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I far preferred her as a stock widow than I do as a nascent fortunata

Forts blossom a bit later when they can get their Psi Wail and Aura of Confusion. If you're playing at level 24ish, I could see your concern with how the Fort plays. 

 

That being said, you could go with Night Widow branch for that level range. It'll give you more health/resistance and you go back to Strike and add Slash to your ST chain.

 

Another option is to try a hybrid Fort, which leverages the best melee attacks in your "stock" powers, and ditch powers like Scramble Thoughts.

 

Let us know how you like playing the widow so far, and we can leverage that into build ideas. Plus, we can factor in more of the leveling up experience, if you haven't gotten to lvl 26 yet.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I'm level 28 currently and not burning XP so I expect to stay that way for a shortish while. We play on Saturdays so I'm anticipating maybe 4 weeks at that level(ish) while we go through FW and NW and then back to Redside.

 

I don't know if there's a comparison, but when I had a Spider on live, I deliberately went the Huntstman route at the respec - ie continued on that path and I was very glad that I did. He became one of my deadliest toons, delivering a sea of orange numerals with big AoEs and cones and was highly survivable. I am surprised more people haven't chosen that option honestly.

[DangerKitty]

My very first char on official was Mind Control, and I played it a LOT. The only problem was that it was very hard to do damage as a troller. /Storm helped, but...

There's always dominators, which can do pretty decent dps in melee, and get some mez protection...

 

But when I saw what could be done with a hybrid fortunata widow, I was blown away. It did take time to really absorb all of the possibilities though. The options are a little overwhelming. I think I have about 25 iterations saved in Mids, created over many years. Most builds only have 5-6 pool powers total, because there's too many great things to pick from in the primaries/secondaries. It's VERY easy to build for 5x LotG & 5x 10% rech from purple sets..

 

I ultimately settled on one build to rule them all (though I keep changing my mind on the details)

Team buffs are defender-grade, melee dps like a claws stalker, ranged dps is near blaster-grade, good aoe/st mix, ST prolonged rotation is S-tier as long as you can get in melee range, CC on par with MCtroller, survivability is generally better than a super reflexes stalker/scrapper.

 

I feel like it's always best to make your own build, cuz it's "yours" and there's more than one way to build it out. But some key things to consider

---

Widow Training key features : FollowUp, Spin, and Lunge, I think Poison Dart is an interesting lvl 1 pick if you want a 3-shot rotation at range with gloom / alternatively swipe is solid (either way you likely want a slot mule for spider's bite on your weakest lvl 1 attack)

 

Fortunata Training key features : Aim, Dominate (proc-monster slotting can put it on par with Blaze, I slot it that way on pretty much any character with access to it), Total Domination (gives a cooldown rotation with aura of confusion for aoe CC, it's the mindtroller way), Psychic Wail (dmg slotted, it also has cc but look at that dmg), Psionic Tornado (or an aoe from epic pool, or both)

 

Teamwork key features : ALL of them. Even solo they're a bargain with the low end-cost.

 

Fortunata Teamwork key features : Mind Link, Aura of Confusion (its a pbaoe mass confuse like strongest power in mind control), Mask Pressense (OR Infiltration from pools, if you're skipping a travel power)

---

Other :

- Hasten (always), and I like Maneuvers (pool) & Assault (pool) to really stack the team buffing but that is an endurance consideration, and Combat Jumping is just great for a stealth IO to stack your hidden (and push def even deeper above softcap). You probably don't want to Fly/Hover since your optimal AV-melting rotation will have melee in it. It's just criminal not to get lunge & followup into your ST rotation.

- Some interesting epic pool options are Gloom as a single pick for a second strong ST Rdps rotation. Or zapp/ball lightning ~or~ electric fences/ball ligntning, for a 16-cap aoe, or 2 aoe's. I don't think leviathan or mace work very well for the fortunata though. And frankly, even taking an epic pool is pretty optional on a fortunata, you're in a candy store of great options.
- In general Fortunatas flourish with any extra recharge, defense, and damage you can find. Recharge can be especially useful as it can tighten up rotations to skip lower dmg-per-activation-time powers and tighten up the total dom/aura confuse cycle, Endurance is very manageable as long as you pay 'some' attention to it in build. Forts love red inspirations. And out of all archetypes, forts probably benefit the most from excessively high-budget slotting. Even a x8+4 solo fire farm build can "get by" on cheaper slotting and the only difference is longer run times. Also, I do firmly think that Fortunata adds a lot more strong options than Night, to the point that 'playstyle preference' is a tough argument to make against Fort.

---

I kinda prefer spin, psionic tornado, and psychic wail for dmg aoe's, and follow-up, lunge, and dominate for prolonged ST rotation. poison dart, dominate, & gloom is strong on BAF prisoner cleanup, or whenever you're forced away from an AV. If you go Gloom there's a (cheap) accurate to-hit debuff dmg proc hidden in the low level IO set, and you don't need 5% psi def from 6 Apocalypses. I like -resist procs in Spin and another aoe (generally psi tornado or ball lightning), and I like twin build-up procs in FollowUp & Dominate (but another dmg io & dmg proc are very good too).

---

I think poison dart or swipe are better than mental or telekinetic blast for lvl 1. Subdue and Strike are kinda interesting, but would be far more interesting if they were level 1 instead of 2. Dart Burst isn't bad, but it's not ideal positionally (cone which needs long range to work well, on a stalker-ish dps?). Same for psychic scream (though you could ignore all that and build for Rdps, I think it's weaker though, and you're survivable enough to get in there). Scramble thoughts isn't bad but it can't proc-monster like dominate, and ST CC isn't exactly game changing. Also Scramble doesn't stack a CC magnitude with your main aoe CC's. Plus, really, a fortunata's best approach to mobs which don't CC at mag3 is just to apply Un-Life. Fate Sealed can boost CC times, but not by a ton. If you're strapped for slots and have a power open, it 'can' be ok-ish. Confuse is ok on a MCtroller, but here it's not impressive. Again, unlife is the main debuff for hard targets. Tactical vengeance is an ok slot mule, though you've got a TON of def slots to play with, and healing IO effects won't globally trigger from it unless you use it.

 

I think you'll want either Muscleclature (core) or Agility (radial) that's really the hardest decision right there. Assault (radial) to melt face or Melee (core) to go extra tanky (I lean assault). I like Void (radial) cuz its dmg is still pretty decent, it's positionally friendly, you don't have to point it or target it, and the -50% dmg effect is actually very strong, but there are other good options. Degenerative Core Flawless or Reactive Total Radial are the two strongest interfaces I think. If you go fire dot, I'd stop at just the pure 75% chance for fire dot, since the 2-proc options check for one, then the other if that hits... so you get the most fire dots from the tier 3 version so that your fire dot isn't hidden behind a prerequisite-proc paywall. But I think degenerative, with the 75% chance for -hp (and a small chance for dmg) is strongest overall. Pets... lots of options, but the 5-minute untouchable pets are the focus over 'hittable' pets. And then Rebirth Radial (widows don't have a heal) or Ageless Core (never, ever, run out of endurance). I think Rebirth is stronger here, because you can cover endurance fairly well with the occasional inspiration, and an overkill amount of recovery isn't as beneficial as an overkill around of regen. Forts are ok-ish on endurance, if your build is at least minimally mindful of it. Rebirth Radial gives full time +200% regen btw, and much more than that part-time.

You don't need barrier or clarion unless your build is borked elsewhere (though I could see a melee core/barrier combo possibly working off alternating CD for an extra-tanky fort, maybe), and incandescence is 'meh'.

 

My playstyle with Fort:

- It's right here - unlife it.

- It's over there - unlife it from afar.

- They're right here - unlife them.

- They're over there - go over there, & unlife them.

- There's a million of em - pop an aoe cc.

- There's 2 million of em - pop an aoe cc here, and an aoe cc over there.

- Your team split 3 ways - aoe cc here, ranged aoe cc there, jump to point 3 and apply unlife.

- You're hit with CC - that tickles.
- Someone used Vengeance - you ARE Vengeance. but it helps other people, especially if they're not close enough to you.

- Your team is taking a beating - they're not close enough to you.

- Your team can't hit their targets - they're not close enough to you.

- The tank dropped on a +4 AV and you are gifted agro - Use that saved large orange inspiration, it'll be fine.

- You saved purple inspirations instead of orange & red - why'd you do that? your blood is pure concentrated purple, there's no room for more. redo.

- You have a whole bunch of red inspirations - "muahahaha, release control art restriction, and get the dmg bonus meter on-screen"

- You missed a target - It's a paragon protector, it could happen to anybody. Can probably overcap it if you have a random yellow pill or aim is up.

- It's a TPK and you're the last one - pop oranges, pop psychic wail, meter your green & red pill intake, pop mass confuse when they regroup from wail, pop total domination when they stop being helpful, by the time they find their asprin Wail will be back up, eye your rebirth CD and endurance like a hawk, stay on top of your mind link CD. With any luck your team will be back in time for the bulk of the xp.

- you Leroy Jenkins a bunch of toxic dmg enemies - so THIS is what people meant by "hospital", weird! Oh there's a nurse with redpills and oranges for sale...

- your prospective team leader thinks widows suck - don't argue. they're entitled to their opinion, and you're entitled to a better team.

- your team is doing really great - they ARE doing great. don't elaborate on why, you're probably not the only one with some carry-buffing.

- The best thing about being a fortunata? - you're a goated chad or chadette, but don't talk about your buffs, twould be unseemly.

- The worst thing about being a fortunata? - things might be a little TOO easy.

 

Obviously you can eschew all of these "build leanings", and go in a completely different direction. Playstyle preferences are 100% valid! This is just an overview on cherry-picking 'all' of the top-tier powers for a jack of all trades (which feels almost like a cheat). But even if you focus more on specializing, you're going to have a lot of jack of all trades floating around in your build, so hopefully this offers some insight. It does feel a little hard to justify going night widow though.

One thing though (in any build), buildup procs, aim, non-full-time powers like incarnate assault, etc. can make your dmg/accuracy in Mids look stronger than it is. Conversely, -resist procs (or the -hp in degenerative) make dps look weaker (in mids) than it actually is. Thus why a team which stacks -resist and kinetics is SSSSS-tier whether those characters do good dps themselves or not. But the same concept applies in microcosm within a build to some extent. The highest number isn't necessarily the highest number. And the positional aspects (and cast times) of your builds will make or break their 'fun' and effectiveness.

Edited September 7 by DangerKitty