Thunderbolts* (MCU)

[Techwright]

So now we have the roster, an anticipated theater release date, and curiously, an asterisk.

 

https://www.superherohype.com/movies/572655-thunderbolts-gets-new-logo-slight-tweak-to-mcu-movie-title

 

Part of that article's description sounds a bit like Suicide Squad.  I do hope they're not trying to mimic them.  Four on the roster are worth keeping around.  Three are not developed enough yet.  Ross?  Yeah, you can take out Thaddeus Ross.  No tears spilled (though likely he'll become Red Hulk).

 

 

[BrandX]

Not sure I see Yelena as the leader type of the group, as I didn't feel that in the movie or shows.  I also wonder if Bucky would just follow her.  Like the return of Ghost, but Taskmaster was meh.

[Haijinx]

Were any of these on any of the Rosters in the comics?

[Mr. Vee]

I remember Ghost was part of Cage's T-bolts but don't remember anyone else being one. I've not read the full runs though

[Ghost]

Think on the comics, they were named after Thunderbolt Ross - so it makes sense why he is included.

I imagine Yelena is the leader because she is the most bankable star.

 

[Mr. Vee]

30 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Think on the comics, they were named after Thunderbolt Ross - so it makes sense why he is included.

I imagine Yelena is the leader because she is the most bankable star.

 

They weren't. He wasn't even attached to them until waaaay later

[Ghost]

41 minutes ago, Mr. Vee said:

They weren't. He wasn't even attached to them until waaaay later

Thanks

Don’t know why I thought that, or even where I’d heard it.

[Mr. Vee]

it makes sense, and he was in charge of one of the teams, so i could see it.

[Haijinx]

That was Red Hulk Ross, which was sad days for Marvel writing.

 

The main run I remember as being good was in the wake of the Civil War.  Which was far better in the comics than the movies.

[Techwright]

A bit more info coming to us, spoiler free.  It does reference the storylines of a few previously-released Marvel projects, however, and I'll discuss that since enough time has passed, so be forewarned if you want spoiler-free everything.

 

 

Summary and Thoughts:

 

1. Practical more than CGI.

 

2. A "human story" and "going back to their (that is, the MCU's) roots".   

         If that means they're going back to what made the first Ironman film a success, I'm all for it.  There's been too much flash and not enough substance of late.  As to a "human story", IMHO Marvel, both comic and screen, has always done better at the individual level rather than the "phenominal cosmic power" level.  It's what makes the different Spider-men a success, a "one of us" gets the mantle viewpoint.  It is interesting, as I read the character roster, that at least 4 of the team are characters for whom we've already seen a very human story with both successes and failures: Bucky Barnes, John Walker, Yelena Belova, and Ava Starr.  We've not seen much of that with Red Guardian, and absolutely nothing of that from Thunderbolt Ross.  We're aware of a lot of suffering for Taskmaster, but they've not laid down enough story for us to emotionally connect strongly with the character, so far.  If The Sentry has been in a previous MCU work, I've missed that work.

 

3. Thunderbolts* (as a reminder, the asterisks is part of the title) will be Marvel's version of Suicide Squad.  Got it. 

          Guessing now fatalities might be Taskmaster, Ghost, and/or Red Guardian, the last being especially significant as he is the last living "family" member for Yelena.  Guessing Bucky will survive this as he's integral to the current Captain America storyline.  of course, that depends on timing of film releases, too.  One can only hope Thunderbolt Ross doesn't survive this.  He's been a major pain-in-the-tights for a lot of MCU folk to this point, and possibly my least favorite character of the franchise, due to his manipulations and power trip in the supposed name of the greater good.  (As a side note, I remain very surprised at the casting of Harrison Ford in the role.  Yes, he's one of the most bankable stars in Hollywood, but he's 81.  There's not much room for 3-year-apart sequels before he's either physically unable to play the role, or worse.  Which leads me to believe the days are numbered for character Ross as well.)

 

4. I saw Black Panther: Waukanda Forever, and don't recall Fontaine's step up to CIA director.  Interesting.  I'm trying to figure out how a person maintains both their European "contessa" title, and be a ranking officer in the USA structure.  Did MCU Fontaine marry into European aristocracy?

 

 

 

Edited June 10 by Techwright

[ZacKing]

On 4/13/2024 at 11:15 PM, Techwright said:

Yeah, you can take out Thaddeus Ross.  No tears spilled (though likely he'll become Red Hulk).

 

That's going to be in the new Captain America mega-flop.  McDonald's already spoiled it with the toys.  Can't say I'm looking forward to this one at all and I see it as the next flop/disaster/money loser for the MCU.

Edited June 10 by ZacKing

[Techwright]

6 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

That's going to be in the new Captain America mega-flop.  McDonald's already spoiled it with the toys.  Can't say I'm looking forward to this one at all and I see it as the next flop/disaster/money loser for the MCU.

 

You're probably not alone.  While you were typing this out, I was reading the comments by the actor who plays The Leader stating they were in the middle of reshoots.  Further reading revealed that the first attempt at the film had low test-audience scores, resulting in the rewriting/reshooting of 3 or 4 critical spots in the Captain America movie.  As to the toys spoiler: sad, just sad.  I mean about Ross, not the spoiler. 😉  Though, I'd have thought by now that there would be contractual obligations in place to not reveal any details of the film until a production company-specified date.  That could be a major liability for a film. 

[Ghost]

Supposedly the Cap American reshoots were for more than half the movie 😞

not a good sign

 

As for Thunderbolts - “going back to their roots” is what’s always said when something was once very successful, and is now crap.

More times than not, they can’t find their roots anymore/have no idea what made them successful in the first place.

We shall see, but I’m not expecting it to be very good.

[TTRPGWhiz]

The whole "going back to their roots" and "human story" thing comes from one quote from one interview with Julia Louis-Dreyfus who, while a fun actress and everything, isn't really someone with a deep history in the MCU myth- and movie-making apparatus.

 

(I have to chuckle at Harrison Ford being described as "one of Hollywood's most bankable stars". Is it 1996 already?)

Contessa: there's nothing that says you can't be both European nobility/aristocracy and a US government employee.

Edited June 10 by TTRPGWhiz

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, Techwright said:

A bit more info coming to us, spoiler free.  It does reference the storylines of a few previously-released Marvel projects, however, and I'll discuss that since enough time has passed, so be forewarned if you want spoiler-free everything.

 

 

Summary and Thoughts:

 

1. Practical more than CGI.

 

2. A "human story" and "going back to their (that is, the MCU's) roots".   

         If that means they're going back to what made the first Ironman film a success, I'm all for it.  There's been too much flash and not enough substance of late.  As to a "human story", IMHO Marvel, both comic and screen, has always done better at the individual level rather than the "phenominal cosmic power" level.  It's what makes the different Spider-men a success, a "one of us" gets the mantle viewpoint.  It is interesting, as I read the character roster, that at least 4 of the team are characters for whom we've already seen a very human story with both successes and failures: Bucky Barnes, John Walker, Yelena Belova, and Ava Starr.  We've not seen much of that with Red Guardian, and absolutely nothing of that from Thunderbolt Ross.  We're aware of a lot of suffering for Taskmaster, but they've not laid down enough story for us to emotionally connect strongly with the character, so far.  If The Sentry has been in a previous MCU work, I've missed that work.

 

3. Thunderbolts* (as a reminder, the asterisks is part of the title) will be Marvel's version of Suicide Squad.  Got it. 

          Guessing now fatalities might be Taskmaster, Ghost, and/or Red Guardian, the last being especially significant as he is the last living "family" member for Yelena.  Guessing Bucky will survive this as he's integral to the current Captain America storyline.  of course, that depends on timing of film releases, too.  One can only hope Thunderbolt Ross doesn't survive this.  He's been a major pain-in-the-tights for a lot of MCU folk to this point, and possibly my least favorite character of the franchise, due to his manipulations and power trip in the supposed name of the greater good.  (As a side note, I remain very surprised at the casting of Harrison Ford in the role.  Yes, he's one of the most bankable stars in Hollywood, but he's 81.  There's not much room for 3-year-apart sequels before he's either physically unable to play the role, or worse.  Which leads me to believe the days are numbered for character Ross as well.)

 

4. I saw Black Panther: Waukanda Forever, and don't recall Fontaine's step up to CIA director.  Interesting.  I'm trying to figure out how a person maintains both their European "contessa" title, and be a ranking officer in the USA structure.  Did MCU Fontaine marry into European aristocracy?

 

 

 

 

2) Yelena still has her mother alive, which I believe, I heard she'd be in this movie as well.

 

3) I am not for Harrison getting the role.  He's both been seeming to phone in his roles as he just cashing checks now, likely know he's old and setting up his family with some more wealth before he goes.  He just hasn't seemed to care about his job.  I hope Taskmaster is one of the fatalities of this movie as she's one who came off as uninteresting.

 

4) Who knows.

[Techwright]

45 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

2) Yelena still has her mother alive, which I believe, I heard she'd be in this movie as well.

 

3) I am not for Harrison getting the role.  He's both been seeming to phone in his roles as he just cashing checks now, likely know he's old and setting up his family with some more wealth before he goes.  He just hasn't seemed to care about his job.  I hope Taskmaster is one of the fatalities of this movie as she's one who came off as uninteresting.

 

4) Who knows.

 

2) Ah, I seem to have forgotten.  I thought her "mother" was destroyed in the events of the Black Widow movie, but then, I only saw the movie once.  I may be mixing it up with "What If...?"

[Thraxen]

MCU took taskmaster, a really cool character, and totally fucked him.  Like hard. So hard. Not watching this hot garbage until it’s streaming and maybe not even then. 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

 

12 hours ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

(I have to chuckle at Harrison Ford being described as "one of Hollywood's most bankable stars". Is it 1996 already?)

I'd prefer nobody reminded me how long that was ago, when I could wear New Rocks without ankles cracking...

 

[le sigh]

 

If Ross is the dramatic core of this movie, you need a Proper Actor to do it, and in the absence of Bill Hurt, he's a solid but one-shot choice. If you needed Ross around for a series, I would have gone for Skårsgard, Cranston, or a lesser known but solid character actor like Bruce Greenwood or Chris McDonald.

 

About the flicks generally: I read an article recently that said Marvel were trying too hard to make tentpole movies, when what they need to do is to cut the budget and get back to where they were in the early days.

 

The original Iron Man is an indie director - Favreau - who's just got hold of the big budget toybox and is messing around with it. And sure, he's got some big fight scenes and spectacle as expected, but the dialogue snaps around, there's a bit of a redemption arc, and there's plenty of very personal scenes. Cap is a Boy's Own war movie that just happens to have a supe landed in the middle of it. (Well, two if you count Peggy. Which I do.) Winter Soldier is a proper conspiracy movie... with flying aircraft carriers, but nonetheless retains that feel. 

 

I am kinda sad that Thunderbolts is going to be just another teamup movie. I had a whole other script idea for that, which went close to the original comics, but wrapped in the modern obsessions with media and social media imaging, and the idea that bad guys could be tempted to the good side rather than vice versa.

[Techwright]

6 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

 

I'd prefer nobody reminded me how long that was ago, when I could wear New Rocks without ankles cracking...

 

1996 seems like only 1/3 the time distance that it actually is.

 

[le sigh]

 

If Ross is the dramatic core of this movie, you need a Proper Actor to do it, and in the absence of Bill Hurt, he's a solid but one-shot choice. If you needed Ross around for a series, I would have gone for Skårsgard, Cranston, or a lesser known but solid character actor like Bruce Greenwood or Chris McDonald.

 

Skårsgard is already a strong secondary player in the MCU, mostly in the Thor films.  Greenwood is one of my favorite actors, but I don't see him in the role of complete-jerk Ross. Even his greedy, reputation-obsessed antagonist in I, Robot wasn't completely without a heart.  That said, Greenwood is very good, and could probably make this one of the "against the type" roles.  With the need for Ross to be a more physical character going forward, I'd have cast someone in their 60s and in great shape. Age them with makeup.  I know, I know, CGI and stuntmen cover the physicality of a character, but if they're really trying to get back to down-home practical, this is the way to go.

 

About the flicks generally: I read an article recently that said Marvel were trying too hard to make tentpole movies, when what they need to do is to cut the budget and get back to where they were in the early days. 

 

Budget is not necessarily the evil.  It's what you do with it. And Marvel of late has fallen into the same trap that Paramount did when they made Star Trek: The (Slow) Motion Picture.  Paramount forgot the fans fell in love with a shoestring-budget show where script and character made it work, despite silly camera shakes, and plastic pipes on the ship walls.  So of course, Paramount went with a mediocre story and huge special effects that they showcased in lengthy viewing sessions.  Fortunately, the fans were so starved for anything, they (and laserdisk) made the show a success.  But it was really the effort of Harv Bennett, who put the hours and research in to craft The Wrath of Khan that made Star Trek's comeback a success.  He still had the effects, but a budget 1/4 the size of the first.  It succeeded because he built on the foundation of good story and characters.

 

 Cap is a Boy's Own war movie that just happens to have a supe landed in the middle of it. (Well, two if you count Peggy. Which I do.) 

"Boy's Own": nice reference.  Peggy is my favorite type of "normal" human in the MCU: one who has no powers but through willpower and level-headed thinking can make viewers think they're watching someone on level with the supers.  There's a few others.  Nick Fury and Maria Hill come to mind.  Pretty much all the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. team if one extends their viewership that far.  Of course, I'm focused on the original MCU Peggy and not Captain Carter.

 

I am kinda sad that Thunderbolts is going to be just another teamup movie. I had a whole other script idea for that, which went close to the original comics, but wrapped in the modern obsessions with media and social media imaging, and the idea that bad guys could be tempted to the good side rather than vice versa. 

With the exception of Ross and possibly Contessa, I'm not sure any of the know Thunderbolts for the movie are bad.  They've all done terrible things but either out of drastic desperation or from external manipulation:  Yelana, Bucky, and Taskmaster were due to external manipulation.  You could probably say the same for Red Guardian.  Ghost from life-threatening desperation.  John Walker is the one close call.  He was put into a role half-baked: he had the training, was given a shield that was supposed to be in a museum for good, and not given the power needed to fulfill the role.   He did hunt down and kill a surrendering enemy, but that man and his unit had just attempted to kill Walker, succeeding in killing his best friend.  That and Walker had just taken a street-made version of the Super Soldier serum.  It could be argued that he wasn't prepared to deal with the mental changes that occurred.  Had he a wise German scientist to explain how the serum amplifies personality, he might have been able to brace for the effect.  Not excusing him, just pointing out conditions. 

 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

3 hours ago, Techwright said:

I'm not sure any of the know Thunderbolts for the movie are bad. 

This is also where it diverges from the Thunderbolts comic arc, which I was really hoping they were going to do justice to - because done straight and done right, it could have been the Marvel answer to Usual Suspects. 

 

Given that the arc would be spoilered by a thousand nerd sites, I would have gone for a little more summer-friendly version, in which they accidentally save the day in pursuit of a different mission / heist, and become as famous and popular as the now retired Avengers. Each member reacts differently to that - some don't want redemption, because it's somewhere they don't want to go back to given what they've done. Too many questions to answer. (More common than you'd think.) Some are HYPERFOCUSED ON THE MISSION. Some realise they can be good and want to take that path. And a genderflipped Techno (because you have to these days, and also Norbert is a terrible character name anyway) is still 100% out for herself, but goes through the whole "what was thaaat? That was FAAAAAAAMME..." thing.

Edited June 11 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

..And a genderflipped Techno (because you have to these days, and also Norbert is a terrible character name anyway) is still 100% out for herself, but goes through the whole "what was thaaat? That was FAAAAAAAMME..." thing.

 

Sooo...Norberta, then? 😁 The team actually already has two gender-flipped characters: Ghost and Taskmaster.    While I'm mostly not opposed to this tactic when considering its a multiverse of infinite possibilities, and the MCUniverse is a different one than the comics. three on a team of ten is going to appear excessive, or at least raise charges of such.    Now if you make the third a species swap to, say, a talking raccoon or tree, now we're talking. 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

10 hours ago, Techwright said:

Sooo...Norberta, then?

Roberta. I'm not that cruel. Also, Taskmaster would not have made the cut on my team - and ten seems excessive anyway. Seven is a good number:

• (Baron) Zemo as permanently masked hero Citizen
• John Walker as US Agent
• Red Guardian as Goliath
• Yelena as the new Widow
• Bucky as himself, given he's a known Avenger, and also an innately suspicious git
• Jolt (from the original comics - a wide-eyed ingenue and our "way in" to the story)
• Techno/Fixer

[Techwright]

5 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Roberta. I'm not that cruel. Also, Taskmaster would not have made the cut on my team - and ten seems excessive anyway. Seven is a good number:

• (Baron) Zemo as permanently masked hero Citizen
• John Walker as US Agent
• Red Guardian as Goliath
• Yelena as the new Widow
• Bucky as himself, given he's a known Avenger, and also an innately suspicious git
• Jolt (from the original comics - a wide-eyed ingenue and our "way in" to the story)
• Techno/Fixer

 

Sorry..."Red Guardian as Goliath"?  Is that something from the comics (which I've not read)?  Last I knew, Bill Foster was Goliath.  Did the comics take a super soldier and make him a size-shifter as well? That would be, well, interesting.

 

I'm all for having Zemo in an action sequence.  MCU Zemo is supposed to be ex-Sokovian special forces, but most of what we've seen has been his mental skills, his tactics, but not his fighting prowess.

 

"Ten" was a miscount on my part.  It should have been "nine" since I was taking the Contessa into account, admittedly in a strategy role rather than physical (possibly).  But I also wasn't considering Zemo, as current lists haven't mentioned him.  Considering how important he is in the comics, this may be a silence tied to some special appearance or role in the movie.  Perhaps he's third-party viewpoint/interference?  Likewise, after re-reading some news, Melina, Yelena's surrogate mother, is also surprisingly absent, so there may be some surprise with her in store as well.  USAgent, Red Guardian, Black Widow II, Bucky (they really need to ditch his villainous name and either make White Wolf stick or give him another name), Ghost, Taskmaster, Ross (and presumably in alter-ego form), Sentry, and Contessa de Fontaine were the nine I was thinking of. 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Different Goliath: the OG one for Thunderbolts was one of Zemo's sidekicks called Erik Josten.

I got that slightly wrong - the OG Goliath renamed himself Atlas when they formed the Thunderbolts team.

 

If you're not familiar with the comics...

Spoiler

Very fast intro:

• The Avengers and F4 go missing, assumed dead, in the Onslaught event around 1996.
• Marvel then launches the Thunderbolts with great fanfare.
• However, heavy hints are dropped over the weeks that all is not what it seems...
• Until the big reveal that these shiny new heroes are in fact Baron Zemo and the Masters of Evil masquerading as heroes. [dramatic chords]
• Where this gets interesting, writing wise... for their various different reasons, like acceptance, redemption, power, wealth, or fame, some of the Thunderbolts get to like their new gig. They also get quite protective of Jolt, who's a complete innocent who joins to help out New York's new heroes.
• Except Zemo, who of course has an Evil Plan. [even more dramatic chords]
• The Evil Plan blows up when the Avengers show up again.
• In typical 90s bad guy style, Zemo can't resist mouthing off and exposing his genius to the world...
• ...which royally hacks off the Thunderbolts. Zemo manages to mind control the Avengers and send them after his former teammates, though it ends up with both crews beating him down.
• The Thunderbolts wind up as rogue heroes, wanted by multiple governments.
• So if you have a cape-related problem, if nobody else can help, and you can find them (etc)...

 

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Different Goliath: the OG one for Thunderbolts was one of Zemo's sidekicks called Erik Josten.

I got that slightly wrong - the OG Goliath renamed himself Atlas when they formed the Thunderbolts team.

 

If you're not familiar with the comics...

  Hide contents

Very fast intro:

• The Avengers and F4 go missing, assumed dead, in the Onslaught event around 1996.
• Marvel then launches the Thunderbolts with great fanfare.
• However, heavy hints are dropped over the weeks that all is not what it seems...
• Until the big reveal that these shiny new heroes are in fact Baron Zemo and the Masters of Evil masquerading as heroes. [dramatic chords]
• Where this gets interesting, writing wise... for their various different reasons, like acceptance, redemption, power, wealth, or fame, some of the Thunderbolts get to like their new gig. They also get quite protective of Jolt, who's a complete innocent who joins to help out New York's new heroes.
• Except Zemo, who of course has an Evil Plan. [even more dramatic chords]
• The Evil Plan blows up when the Avengers show up again.
• In typical 90s bad guy style, Zemo can't resist mouthing off and exposing his genius to the world...
• ...which royally hacks off the Thunderbolts. Zemo manages to mind control the Avengers and send them after his former teammates, though it ends up with both crews beating him down.
• The Thunderbolts wind up as rogue heroes, wanted by multiple governments.
• So if you have a cape-related problem, if nobody else can help, and you can find them (etc)...

 

This (in the spoiler box) was adapted to a large arc across season 3 of the animated Avengers Assemble!, although the roster was probably different.  While I consider that animated show to be inferior to Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, I did think the arc was reasonably good.