Water level in base keeps going down

[Elfis]

When I first made my base, I put the horizon water fill in the middle.  There was nothing in the room to put it on; it was just directly on the floor.  The water was quite high, and I raised some of my NPCs that were swimming under the water so that their heads would be above.  The nurse never swims, so I left her underwater.  

 

The next time I went to the base, the water level was lower.  Barely above the nurse's head.  Over time, it got even lower.

 

I recently put the horizon water fill at the map floor thousands of feet below the base instead.  Now there is "smooth water" placed where the horizon water fill was.  It was also quite low compared to the nice high water level I had before, but the NPCs were still swimming.

 

But today when I went into the base, my character could still swim, but the water was so low it wasn't even waist high on the nurse.  The inspiration storage treasure chests that used to be half submerged back in the beginning now float above the water. 

 

I haven't moved the NPCs or the inspiration chests since the start, and I only changed the water one time, from horizon fill to a 16x16 plate, and at the time that I changed that, the water level was the same as it had been with the horizon fill, then later continued to fall. 

 

I just tried deleting the water and putting a new water tile, and the water height doesn't change.  Hitting undo and redo a few times showed the NPCs changing heights a bit, but the water level doesn't.  Inspiration chests still float above the water, crafting stations that used to be deeply submerged are now at the surface, etc.

 

Does anyone know what is happening?  I like the high water level, so I will probably manually raise the water tile relative to the floor, but this is very odd and I hope it doesn't keep dropping.

 

UPDATE:

 

I ran some tests, which you can find detailed more on page 2.  A few highlights:

-'fill' type water places the water 1 foot higher than the water surface tiles.

-PCs swim at different heights to match the water when out of the editor, but in the editor, they swim at the same height in both, placing small characters noticably underwater while swimming in the fill tiles while editing.

-This doesn't account for all the odd behavior I saw.  For example, I had players that visited the base during lulls in the Mapserver event comment in surprise that they were swimming underwater.  In my tests, this only happened while editing.

- The extra weirdness may just be due to the Mapserver April Fools event, where quite a few things were behaving weirdly.

Edited April 26 by Elfis

[Ridiculous Girl]

there must be a hole somewhere! 😁

[Elfis]

I considered it heh.  There are waterfalls underneath for water coming out.

[Dacy]

Wow, I admit, I have no idea what's going on. Have you re positioned anything, and if you have, is it still doing the same thing, slowly getting lower? If you haven't re positioned the water, try that, but this is very very odd.

[Etched]

Could the Grid Size be a factor? The water could be set to 4 and when placing a different item changed it to a lower number, like 1/2 or 1/4. Then possibly clicked the water accidentally which changing the height of the water?

 

Or someone else in the SG that has edit permission just didn't like how high the water was and changed it without tellin the OP.

 

@Etched

[Dacy]

The grid thing should only change the height of the water if they had the water selected and changed the grid. But ohhh...that's a BIG  item. I bet it's easy to grab accidentally. Have you edited the base since placing the water before you noticed changes? In other words, did you edit, but didn't think you touched the water, but then saw that the water level had dropped?

 

[Elfis]

It's definitely easy to grab the water or floating rocks 1000 feet away when editing anything.  That's why I always make sure I have the correct thing selected when editing anything, and undo and redo after each item placement to make sure I haven't messed up something elsewhere in my base.  I read a post somewhere on this forum about how doing [something or other] takes all of 3 seconds.  (LOL maybe in the simplest of bases).

 

Anyway, I added a layer of clear water over the top of the water plate and the NPCs swim again even though you fall through to the darker water below.  You've probably seen my base Dacy, since you have to verify bases that go on your list and I just put the base on your list.  I called it Skyland.

 

If anyone is interested to see the base, 1-14297 on Torchbearer.  I have a 200' and an 800' diving board.

Edited April 21 by Elfis
adding base info

[Dacy]

That's a lot of checking; I just watch the item window. Also, angling your camera down so you are focusing on fewer items when building is very helpful. Not only do you not grab so many things accidentally, but if you do and you're not in the habit of holding on to control as you work (that's me, I hold control most of the time), items won't scoot across the base if you DO accidentally grab them. The editor can swap out items sometimes after you've selected and positioned them as you place them, but this has happened to me only when the base  is very full of items.

 

So, you carefully did not move it, but you did not answer whether or not you'd re-positioned it and seen it repeat the sinking or not.

 

 

[Etched]

Simplest of bases... lol 

 

You are welcome to take a stroll through some of my simple bases that I've done.

 

Rogue-30559 On Everlast

Ideals, Ideals-30956 on Everlast

Club-27052 on Excel

Sloppy-13062

 

I could list more but I feel the point is made.

You are welcomed to watch as I work, I am primarily on Torch.

 

@Etched

 

[Elfis]

The base has been in progress for a few weeks.  I'm sure the water level moved at least once without me accidentally moving it when it had horizon fill in the middle of the base, and I'm sure it moved at least once after changing to a regular smooth water tile; the other times it's possible I accidentally dragged it around, but also possible it just moved.  The NPCs definitely move up and down randomly by a foot or so whenever they are reset by an undo or such.

 

And Etched if you are talking about my reference to the post about doing something in 3 seconds, yeah I'm not a believer.  It's absurd to think that you could do anything safely in 3 seconds in the editor.

[Dacy]

I think there is, perhaps, a human tendency to feel like one's own experience is similar to others'. Etched, those kinds of speeds are something you and I might be comfortable with, but I suspect that you are going to see fast editing speed from people with not only fast keyboarding skills, but those who are also comfortable with the editor and use it frequently. Which would mean, even some very experienced editors won't be so fast. Clearly Elfis is not someone who is comfortable with the editor; they do not trust the editor at all, so how could they be comfortable with it? (Not referring to skill, merely trust, here. I trust the editor to do what I want it to do 95% of the time; for the other 5%, when it does something I don't want it to do, I can immediately correct it, and it rarely even slows me down much; this, I'm realizing, is a luxury that affords me a great deal of speed, but it comes from a great deal of editing time, and from learning many ins and outs regarding the editor.) Telling people how much faster you are doesn't help them become faster, it only makes them feel discouraged. 😞 Let's think about how we can communicate hope for improvement and accept the truths of where people are now with their editing? I know I myself need to work on this. And Elfis, I'm sorry the editor has given you such problems! I hope that, with some experience, it gets easier, faster, and less problematic.

 

Fast placement speeds are not going to apply to every base, even for a fast editor. In a high count base, there will be longer placement times per item, and a higher chance for the editor to pull a fast switch when you're placing the item. Things I've found that help there are 1.) if you are doing several moves with an item, such as turning it with clicks, then rotating it at an angle, then moving it across the floor to position it, and it does something wonky, try doing those things in separate moves. Place and rotate. Angle it. Move it. Takes a little longer, but not as long as repeating everything you did several times because the memory processing won't let it let you finish the placement. Also, on that final placement, get it in position and pause before clicking to release, because it's basically lagging here.  The program rewrites the entire base every time you move one piece, so the bigger the base, the more it has to do with each move. The interaction between the system requirements and your computer system and your internet and even what base it is all work together to determine how easy and fast it is to place things.

 

Elfis, could I come into your base and place the water where you want it, and place some markers next to the NPCs and in a few other places so I can better see what is moving where, and how much? And do you have any other bases where you've seen this? Some bases, as I mentioned above, actually do seem to be more difficult to work in than others, and I'm curious if you've seen this in other builds. If the problem shows itself again, I'll report it, and maybe take a demorecord so they can see what's going on.

 

[Etched]

5 hours ago, Elfis said:

And Etched if you are talking about my reference to the post about doing something in 3 seconds, yeah I'm not a believer.  It's absurd to think that you could do anything safely in 3 seconds in the editor.

Because you can't do it therefore no one else should be able to do it? That is extremely closed minded. I'm sure Jordan or LeBron was told they can't score a ton of points within a game and they proved people wrong. 

 

As a mason for 30+years I had no choice but to learn how to do my job as quickly as possible and I wasn't even the fastest  but I learned the ins and outs to keep up with the faster brick layers.

 

Editing bases is really no different then layin brick, block, or stone. One on top of two.

 

So I took what I know about buildin and transfered that knowledge to bases. Then I practiced a lot and then I practiced more. 

 

I'll agree that manipulating an item takes a few seconds more then just slapping a piece down but not much longer. Simply because I already know how it's goin to look and I know what I have to do to get it there. I don't second guess myself because I have done too many times before nor do I have doubt about the editor because I have learned how to work around it.

 

I didn't come on to your post callin you a liar about your issues, I came onto your post to  help YOU figure out why you are havin problems. 

 

I stand by what I said because I know I can do it.    

 

@Etched

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, Etched said:

Because you can't do it therefore no one else should be able to do it? That is extremely closed minded. I'm sure Jordan or LeBron was told they can't score a ton of points within a game and they proved people wrong. 

 

This is very arrogant and just as close minded.  You may well be efficient and fast with the editor, that in no way means everyone else will be regardless of how much time they spend editing.  Not everyone is at the same skill level.   Jordan knew others weren't at the same skill level as him, but he didn't look down his nose at them either.

 

The base editor isn't "easy" or "effortless" or whatever other word you want to use to describe it when it comes to building above the base in rooms with thousands upon thousands of items.  As someone said in the base building chat the other night, the editor simply wasn't designed to work in the way it is now, and anyone trying to claim otherwise is trying to sell you something it isn't.  The editor works very well and is easier to use if you stick within the confines of the interior base rooms.  That's not hard to learn how to do.  Fabricating complex structures, items and environments is a whole lot more tedious work than just drag and dropping an existing item into a room. 

Edited April 22 by ZacKing

[Etched]

First off, I was offering help when the OP brought it up unwarranted. It had not a thing to do with the post. Did i say anything about how fast the OP should be doin it? I dont see it in my post but yet it was mentioned. What was the point of it? Did it effect their water level? I doubt it. So I have a right to defend myself.  Honestly, wouldn't you? 

 

Secondly, I'm not sure where settin complex pieces come from what I said? Since all I said was "I can set an object in 3 seconds". To set an object in 3 seconds, that's it. I didn't say complex maneuvering.  Just to place an item.

 

But you assumed that I meant something I never once said because after all, all I said was to set an item in 3 seconds.

 

 

3 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

Fabricating complex structures, items and environments is a whole lot more tedious work than just drag and dropping an existing item into a room. 

Really? You should take a stroll through some of my bases as well because you are preaching to the choir.  I haven't done a simple base since Club7, which was the only SG that wanted an interior base.

 

Anyhow, always fun to have a chat with you Zacking. im sure ill say something that will offend you in a few days. 

 

@Etched

 

[Elfis]

I'm not super excited about arguing about the limits of handling things in the base editor, and obviously my recent piddling experience is comparatively short, but I can't see how anything could possibly be done that fast, at least in my base.  Island rocks hugging all the outer walls have selection boxes that extend into the base from every side.  Some objects are under a layer or two of water.  Soooo many different things might be selected by clicking in any one spot.

 

Etched, if you care enough to make me a believer, I'll take a wager.  I'll give one of your alts base editing ability for my base and trust that you won't just trash it.  If you can accurately place upside down coffe cups on 10 items in my work area in 1 minute, 6 seconds per object, I will bow in awe to your base editing skill and give you 100 mil inf, which is a lot for me because I'm pretty new and the only reason I have that much is the mapserver event.  If you fail or mess up other stuff, you give me 100 mil.

 

As noted, there are extremely bothersome target boxes overlapping in that area, including that a couple of the items I'll ask you to put a hat on are under a layer or two of water.  I myself would take 4 times that long just to position my character in good positions to add things.  I've had a right click that was just intended to change my camera angle rotate objects instead, and as Dacy says, my trust level in the editor is low heh.

[Elfis]

Ah, just read the end of Dacy's post.  I went ahead and put water everywhere I want it.  You're welcome to come in any time, and I will give you editing power if you want to tweak it.

 

When I originally laid out the base, I had the horizon water fill in the middle of it.  The water level was about where it is now, but I remember my character swam under the surface at the time, and I thought it was just because my character is short.  But later when I came back and noticed the water was lower, I also wasn't swimming under the surface anymore.  So originally, it was acting very similar to the way it does now that I have 2 water layers, a smooth water plate with the clear ("calm" I think it is) water on top, but I only added the clear layer a day ago in order to get back that feeling of depth.  So when I first placed the water, it acted like it had an extra clear layer on top, and then stopped behaving like that later.  Or something. 

 

These are the things I remember:

    -I had to raise the service NPCs because they were swimming under the water (like me).

    -The nurse was completely under water, about a foot farther than she is with my current setup.

    -later, the water went down and I thought it didn't look as nice.

    -After switching from horizon fill to the smooth water plate, they were barely swimming.  (Also, the color isn't as nice as the horizon plate.  Why?)

    -The next time I entered the base, the service NPCs weren't swimming at all; just hanging in the air, since I had raised them off the floor purposely before.

    -I added the clear water over the top and the NPCs swim again (the nurse is the only NPC that never changes her animation to swimming while in deep water.  I tested almost all the others).  It now behaves much like it did originally.

[Etched]

5 hours ago, Elfis said:

Etched, if you care enough to make me a believer, I'll take a wager.  I'll give one of your alts base editing ability for my base and trust that you won't just trash it.  If you can accurately place upside down coffe cups on 10 items in my work area in 1 minute, 6 seconds per object, I will bow in awe to your base editing skill and give you 100 mil inf, which is a lot for me because I'm pretty new and the only reason I have that much is the mapserver event.  If you fail or mess up other stuff, you give me 100 mil.

So to prove that I can lay down an item in 3 seconds I have to manipulate 10 coffee cups that are at ten different locations which are probably hundreds of feet apart within 60 seconds? 

 

Are you tripping?  I would love to know anyone that can do that. Lol

 

How bout this as a bet, I'll give you one billion inf if I am unable to place an item under 3 seconds and if I am able then you give me your base.

 

That is pretty reasonable. Right? One item for one billion inf or you give me your base.

 

Honestly, I think that is a hell of a lot for something you claim that I can't do.

 

@Etched

 

[Elfis]

The item must be precisely placed, and 3 seconds must include time to position yourself so that targeting and such works for the task; that is why it must be multiple things.  Of course you can click on an item and then the base and have it appear (usually; not always).  But for example when I recently put the wall top trim around my base, I had to place it, move it up, roll it over, and then position it exactly next to its neighbor.  I repositioned my character for almost every piece. 

 

Now putting in those sections is a useful measure of the time it takes to put in an item.  The plan is set, you have your piece ready, because all the sections use the same piece.  Each section is next to the last.  You claim to be able to do something in 3 seconds, but it sounds like you don't claim to be able to do something useful in 3 seconds.  If you post that you can do something in 3 seconds, we assume you are claiming to be able to do something useful in 3 seconds, or else you wouldn't post.

 

If you want to show off how fast you can put up my trim, I'll be happy to watch.  We can make a bet for whether you can break 10 seconds per piece if you like.  3 seconds to do something useful is, as people have pointed out to you before, absurd, so I'll settle for 10 seconds per piece.  Or you can just give it a try without the bet to show us how fast you are, or you can just let it go.  Please don't tell people about how something can be done in 3 seconds if the thing you can do in 3 seconds is a trivial action in a vacuum.

[Etched]

Thank you for proving my point. You realize that just placing a single  piece only takes 3 seconds like I said. This is why you keep makin it a complex maneuver and not just place an item like I said. So now I have to jump through hoops while juggling a chainsaw and place the item half a mile from where the item needs to be place. Really?

 

You are doin the best you can to save face and doin it poorly. Because you know I'm right. I just really want to know where I said that I can place an item and turn it upside-down  or any other maneuvering within 3 seconds?

 

It's funny that people take a single statement and twist it into what they want it to mean but not what really was said. Do you even know what Snarky was tryin to move and place? Probably not.

 

I may be confident in what i can do but I'm not stupid. I know what you are askin me to do would take longer than 3 seconds. Especially since I have to move myself hundreds of yards into position grab the item and place it exactly perfect within 3 seconds. Would you want me to climb a mountain while I did this too?

 

So, if you would like to see me place an item, any item within 3 seconds, no maneuvering just place an item, as I said not what you twisted it into. My base is always open.

 

@Etched

 

Ok, I take that back. I reread the original post that Snarky posted and I did mention flippin a piece of glass flooring on top of another. Which would include maneuvering the item on its axis. 

I apologize  for my arrogance. For me, I could do that when I was ready to place the item but i understand not everyone is me. You got me, Elfis. Good job.

 

Edited April 23 by Etched

[ZacKing]

20 hours ago, Etched said:

Secondly, I'm not sure where settin complex pieces come from what I said? Since all I said was "I can set an object in 3 seconds". To set an object in 3 seconds, that's it. I didn't say complex maneuvering.  Just to place an item.

 

But you assumed that I meant something I never once said because after all, all I said was to set an item in 3 seconds.

 

I didn't assume anything, and I think you know that.

 

20 hours ago, Etched said:

Really? You should take a stroll through some of my bases as well because you are preaching to the choir.  I haven't done a simple base since Club7, which was the only SG that wanted an interior base.

 

Anyhow, always fun to have a chat with you Zacking. im sure ill say something that will offend you in a few days. 

 

You haven't offended me.  If you want to keep looking down your nose at others, go right ahead.  You keep doing you.  I don't need to stroll through your bases at all, nor do I want to.  I'm sure they're ok as is and I'm sure there's much, much better ones out there.

[Elfis]

Etched, at first I assumed you were a veteran base builder who was just so practiced at the editor that everything had gotten easy for you.  Well, I'm sure the veteran builder part is right.  I've seen a couple of your posts giving out helpful information while I've been browsing the forum.

 

But you are also a doofus who doesn't understand what other people are writing.

 

Bob says, 'Man, bike racing is hard!'

 

You say, 'No, man.  Bike racing is easy!  You just have to tip the bike just right to transfer the power with little wobble, and you can go mad fast!  I haven't fallen down even once!"

 

Bob is not worried about any of that.  Bob is thinking about that big dude in the way so that he can't get into optimal position for the turn.  And the little dude cutting everyone off and possibly causing a wreck that he'll have to avoid.  And the jump coming up right after the turn that he will need to be perfectly on balance for.  Etc.

 

Maybe my analogy can help you stop doing that, but I've never seen a doofus stop being a doofus, so I'm blocking you so your crap doesn't keep wasting my time.  Shame, because you do seem to make good informational posts sometimes.

[Wavicle]

When I flush the john, now when I flush the john...
It turns the shower on!
(Roto-Rooter 6-5000)
Ba ba-ba-ba, baby,
Better call my plumber!
He'll know what to do!

 

[Dacy]

11 hours ago, Etched said:

Ok, I take that back. I reread the original post that Snarky posted and I did mention flippin a piece of glass flooring on top of another. Which would include maneuvering the item on its axis. 

I apologize  for my arrogance. For me, I could do that when I was ready to place the item but i understand not everyone is me. You got me, Elfis. Good job.

👍 Thank you, Etched.

 

Just a reminder to all, I created a topic just to complain about the editor, or tell us what you'd like to see, so, that's perhaps a better place for such discussions/arguments; it would be awesome if folks could remember that we're all different and do things differently and see things differently, which includes the functioning of the editor. Some people look at it, experience it,  hate it and see problems. Some people look at it, experience it, work with it, and see possibilities. It has both! 🙂 Personally I hope that the people who are experiencing problems will eventually start to see more of the potential and possibilities the editor can offer, even tho it is not automating much for you.

 

Hopefully I can get online at the same time as @Elfis soon, so we can see what's going on. *veers back to topic at hand* 🙂

 

[Snarky]

14 hours ago, Etched said:

Ok, I take that back. I reread the original post that Snarky posted and I did mention flippin a piece of glass flooring on top of another. Which would include maneuvering the item on its axis. 

I apologize  for my arrogance. For me, I could do that when I was ready to place the item but i understand not everyone is me. You got me, Elfis. Good job.

 

yeah, i cannot flip for crap lol.  i have some truly unbelievable interactions with objects.  if you saw a video of it you would die laughing.

 

i may know what happened with the water though.  I saw these guys coming out of a base portal...

 

 

 

 

[Elfis]

I have been playing Starcraft again instead for the last couple days Dacy.  Sorry if you were trying to find me online.  And I mostly come to the forum only if I am looking for information not on the wiki.  I hadn't intended to delve deeply into the quirks and bugs of the game; I originally was just checking to see if someone knew right offhand what was happening. 

 

Perhaps someday, I'll make a new base on a fresh character, put the floor level down to minimum, and try the various water plates along with logging out and checking back later.  Maybe find out what the deal is; it doesn't scream out in urgency to me like it seems to do for some people heh.

 

Dacy, if you give me a time, I can make sure to be on and give you base editing if that's what you are looking for.  If the base password information is getting hard to find among the jumble, it is 1-14297 on Torch.