Brute Primary T4 Build Up -> Roar

[ThatGuyCDude]

Brutes are the topic-du-jour this weekend, and the debate has been how to make them stand out from the other Melee archetypes.  Moving towards damage shoulders Scrappers aside, while moving towards defense does the same for Tankers.  What can be done about this dilemma?  Well... I believe this table is in need of a third leg: let's nudge Brutes towards the Control role by replacing the mundane primary T4 Build Up with something more engaging.

Enter Roar, a Brute-only Hold.  Roar recharges more quickly than the traditional Controller/Dominator mass-hold, but applies to fewer targets, has shorter duration dependent on the current Fury value, and empties the Fury bar.  The idea here is to disable the enemies closest to the Brute in the middle of a scrum, thereby trading personal damage potential for damage protection... not only for the Brute but for everyone in the team.  This will hopefully help to improve the Brute's appeal as a flex-role without diminishing the call for competing melee archetypes.
[I pitched a very short version of this in the "Identity for Brutes" thread, but wanted to elaborate on the idea without derailing the other discussions in that thread.]


Roar (Brute PBAoE Hold)
Gathering all of your Fury in your chest, you let it out with a mighty roar.  The sheer force of your rage is of such magnitude that it leaves your opponents paralyzed, held fast in their boots like deer in headlights.  The duration of this hold is increased the more Fury you have, though releasing this roar lets all of your Fury out (causing your bar to empty).
Recharge: Very Long

Roar Statistics (First pass, numbers flexible)
Available Level: 6 (8 for Claws and Dual Blades)
Click Power
Accuracy: 0.8
Range: 0 Feet [Compare to 60 for similar powers]

Radius: 20 Feet

Cast Time: 1.97 seconds (Invoke Panic animation)
Animation Time before Effect: 0.567 seconds
Endurance Cost: 20.7 [Compare to 15.6 for similar powers]
Recharge Time: 150 seconds [Compare to 240 for similar powers]
Max Targets: 8 [Compare to 16 for similar powers]

Eligible Enhancements: Hold Duration, Endurance Reduction, Recharge Reduction, Accuracy (Damage for some)
Eligible Sets: Melee AoE, Holds, Brute Archetype Sets
 

Normal

100% chance on Targets for (Current Fury / 10) second Hold (Mag 3) [if target>enttype eq 'critter']
100% chance on Targets for (Current Fury / 25) second Hold (Mag 4) [if target>enttype eq 'player']
100% chance on Self for Fury -100

Claws (Additional)
Tier 5 instead of Tier 4
Name changed to Clawing Fury
Animation changed to match Claws.Spin
100% chance on Targets for 15 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) [if target>enttype eq 'critter']

100% chance on Targets for 30 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) [if target>enttype eq 'player']

Dark Melee (Additional)
Animation changed to match Dark Melee.Touch of Fear

Dual Blades (Additional)
Tier 5 instead of Tier 4
Name changed to Typhoon's Fury
Animation changed to match Dual Blades.Typhoon's Edge

100% chance on Targets for 15 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) [if target>enttype eq 'critter']

100% chance on Targets for 30 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) [if target>enttype eq 'player']

Kinetic Melee (Additional)
Name changed to Siphoning Roar
Animation changed to match Kinetic Melee.Power Siphon
Set Mode (Siphon Mode) (Self Only) every 1 second for 25 seconds [Duration adjusted for extended cooldown]

 

Radiation Melee (Additional)

Name changed to Fission
+100% Global Chance mod (Self Only) for 10s [Guaranteed Contamination Proc]

 

Staff Fighting (Additional)
Name changed to Roar of the Storm
Animation changed to match Staff Fighting.Eye of the Storm
100% chance on Targets for 8 points of Smashing damage (all affected targets) every 0.4 seconds for 2.3 seconds, with an additional 10 Smashing/Psionic/Energy damage and -7.5% resistance/recharge/defense after 1 second with Perfection of Body/Mind/Soul 3 [if target>enttype eq 'critter']

100% chance on Targets for 12 points of Smashing damage (all affected targets) every 0.4 seconds for 2.3 seconds, with an additional 15 Smashing/Psionic/Energy damage and -7.5% resistance/recharge/defense after 1 second with Perfection of Body/Mind/Soul 3 [if target>enttype eq 'player']

Savage Melee (Additional)
Apply "Grant Power" (Self Only) = Temporary.Powers.Temporary Powers.Savage Melee Blood Frenzy.Stalker (5 copies)
Apply "Revoke Power" (Self Only) = Temporary.Powers.Temporary.Powers.Savage Melee Exhausted

 

Street Justice (Additional)

Apply "Grant Power" (Self Only) = Temporary.Powers.Temporary.Powers.Combo Level 3
Apply "Revoke Power" (Self Only) = Temporary.Powers.Temporary.Powers.Combo Level 1
Apply "Revoke Power" (Self Only) = Temporary.Powers.Temporary.Powers.Combo Level 2

Super Strength (Additional)

Name changed to Fury Clap
Animation changed to match Super Strength.Hand Clap
100% chance for Mag 5 KnockUp

50% chance for Mag 1 Disorient [if target>enttype eq 'critter']

 

Titan Weapons (Additional)
Name changed to Fury Momentum

Animation changed to match Titan Weapons.Build Momentum
Set Mode (Fast Mode) (Self Only) for 16 seconds [Duration adjusted for extended cooldown]

 

[Power statistics modeled based on information from City of Data]

Edited April 20 by ThatGuyCDude
Forgot a stat

[CrusaderDroid]

You get a like for the attempt.

 

I like the core idea a bunch! My main concern is twofold:

 

1. Bottoming out Fury will require having to build it back up again for your normal damage. On live, this is a non-issue - three swings and you're capped off. This does limit other possibilities that may require slower Fury gain, though.
2. The magnitude doesn't scale, and Brute can't really access the +Mag benefits of Controller and Dominator, so realistically the targets you can hit with this are the same targets you can mow down with your own AoE attacks. That's a problem - especially since you've removed Build Up completely, so it now takes longer to clear the same enemies.

I think something in this ballpark might be part of the puzzle for Brute, though. It's worth considering and worth further drafts.

[Vanden]

Seems kinda overdesigned. Why not just make the damage buff from Build Up scale with Fury?

[gabrilend]

The formatting on this post is gorgeous! ^_^

 

I'm confused about the range: 0 feet tho - how would that work? Can you elaborate? I thoughts this was an AoE centered on the player, and a range of 0 feet means... nothing would get affected, right?

 

 

[ThatGuyCDude]

56 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

The formatting on this post is gorgeous! ^_^

 

I'm confused about the range: 0 feet tho - how would that work? Can you elaborate? I thoughts this was an AoE centered on the player, and a range of 0 feet means... nothing would get affected, right?

 

 

Doh!  I forgot a line.  After all that prep time, I forgot a line!  It's 20 foot radius centered on the user, the range of 0 feet indicates it's a point-blank effect.  The City of Data website lists PB powers in this fashion.

@Vanden Any damage buff shunts the problem onto Scrappers.  Any defense buff shunts the problem onto Tankers.  The goal here is to sidestep that by giving Brutes a role mechanic neither Scrapper nor Tanker ever explores... a full control power.

Edited April 20 by ThatGuyCDude

[Lyone_Manes]

I don't think the idea is without merit, but rather than draining Fury, why not have it use the "Current Fury" without draining it?

 

Also...I think you're looking at the wrong skill. I could be wrong, but I've always thought that the "Taunt" on the Brute needs an adjustment. Scrappers have the single-target, Tanks have the AoE, having Brutes be a weaker "Taunt" but with a Troll Effect or such might be a nice way to differentiate them?

[Lyone_Manes]

Just now, Lyone_Manes said:

I don't think the idea is without merit, but rather than draining Fury, why not have it use the "Current Fury" without draining it?

 

Also...I think you're looking at the wrong skill. I could be wrong, but I've always thought that the "Taunt" on the Brute needs an adjustment. Scrappers have the single-target, Tanks have the AoE, having Brutes be a weaker "Taunt" but with a Troll Effect or such might be a nice way to differentiate them?

After I typed this I had another thought, but different:

 

What if it was an "Auto" Power rather than a clicky? Something "Always on" and effectively giving Fury another purpose based on the Power Set you choose?

[gabrilend]

1 hour ago, Lyone_Manes said:

After I typed this I had another thought, but different:

 

What if it was an "Auto" Power rather than a clicky? Something "Always on" and effectively giving Fury another purpose based on the Power Set you choose?

 

Maybe an auto-power that drains more and more fury the longer you have it on

 

while toggled, it applies a CC effect to nearby enemies in an increasing radius with increasing strength/duration the longer it's been on.

 

Idk if that really fits with the fantasy of the Brute tho?

[Lyone_Manes]

3 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

 

Maybe an auto-power that drains more and more fury the longer you have it on

 

while toggled, it applies a CC effect to nearby enemies in an increasing radius with increasing strength/duration the longer it's been on.

 

Idk if that really fits with the fantasy of the Brute tho?

I was more meaning like:

Darkness - Terrorize with effectiveness based on your current Fury, if it's "Auto" instead of "Toggled", maybe apply it to anyone hit by the Brute?

 

Toggle Aura would be cool too...just less unique. 😛

[ThatGuyCDude]

5 hours ago, CrusaderDroid said:

The magnitude doesn't scale, and Brute can't really access the +Mag benefits of Controller and Dominator, so realistically the targets you can hit with this are the same targets you can mow down with your own AoE attacks. That's a problem - especially since you've removed Build Up completely, so it now takes longer to clear the same enemies.

Rolling a magnitude boost to 4 is part of the Controller/Dominator archetype bonus.  I wasn't sure it was fair to give that same effect to this new Brute power.  Perhaps as a chance roll if a certain Fury threshold is met before use, like say 60 points?  Or a roll with higher and higher probability the higher the Fury bar is when the Roar is activated?

 

1 hour ago, Lyone_Manes said:

I don't think the idea is without merit, but rather than draining Fury, why not have it use the "Current Fury" without draining it?

 

Also...I think you're looking at the wrong skill. I could be wrong, but I've always thought that the "Taunt" on the Brute needs an adjustment. Scrappers have the single-target, Tanks have the AoE, having Brutes be a weaker "Taunt" but with a Troll Effect or such might be a nice way to differentiate them?

The reason for replacing Build Up was two-fold: (1) In a team, when pressing against the damage cap, a Brute gets little opportunity to benefit from Build up, and (2), Build Up is shared between Scrappers, Stalkers, AND Brutes, often in a copy-paste format.  To distinguish Brutes from Scrappers, it helps to reduce the number of powers they have in common.

Brutes need the Taunt to fill their Tank role (although they aren't as good at it as a Tanker, in part due to their target cap which I'd rather NOT be touched).  While it could be changed, adding a crowd control to a Taunt would make it ineffective, especially in content where it is necessary to lead a taunted foe to an advantageous position (such as "Not standing in pink death circles").  That's not to say that Taunt shouldn't be changed in another way for Brutes, perhaps with a heavy debuff matching their power's theme?  So Dark Melee Brute Taunt would have -ToHit?

Draining the Fury bar is the crash penalty for having such a potent Control at such a low tier: other classes get holds like this much later in the game and while they affect more targets, they have a higher recharge time to match.  It's thematic to the power, too... the Brute lets their fury out and that petrifies their foes.  Mechanically, the power is intended as a panic button and signifies a switch in role from Damage Dealer to Tank (or Controller, rather), so the damage crash dovetails with that idea.

 

1 hour ago, gabrilend said:

 

Maybe an auto-power that drains more and more fury the longer you have it on

 

while toggled, it applies a CC effect to nearby enemies in an increasing radius with increasing strength/duration the longer it's been on.

 

Idk if that really fits with the fantasy of the Brute tho?

Changes involving Auto Powers are much harder to notice on the player end: they fall under the umbrella of spreadsheet balance.  The other thread talked about "Big Click" powers that feel like they have a definite impact on gameplay, which is the goal of a Brute rework.  We want the change to be dramatic and noticeable... we want the player to FEEL it when they smash that Roar button.

[Shin Magmus]

It does feel extremely overdesigned to me as well.  Remember that Brutes like being attacked, so giving them powerful CC options prevents enemies from freely building up Fury for them. 

[CrusaderDroid]

8 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Draining the Fury bar is the crash penalty for having such a potent Control at such a low tier: other classes get holds like this much later in the game and while they affect more targets, they have a higher recharge time to match.  It's thematic to the power, too... the Brute lets their fury out and that petrifies their foes. 

You might be able to sidestep @Shin Magmus's concerns (and my own) if Roar didn't drain Fury, but locked it at its current level for the duration. That way you aren't trading away your offense for CC when you could have just AoE spammed your way to victory without it.

 

Also: Careful about theme! Themes are great guides for gameplay, but gameplay is more important than theme. Ideally we get the two to work together, but janky thematic mechanics are worse than generic mechanics that Just Work. In this case, I can just as easily argue that a Brute angry enough to be Roaring at people has hit the point where their Fury really isn't going to stop.

[Luminara]

16 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

replacing the mundane primary T4 Build Up

 

Nope.

[FupDup]

7 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

It does feel extremely overdesigned to me as well.  Remember that Brutes like being attacked, so giving them powerful CC options prevents enemies from freely building up Fury for them. 

Yeah, maybe it could be a -res and -def debuff to enemies instead? Like a reverse-Buildup that achieves a similar effect but by weakening enemies instead of empowering the user. 

[Shin Magmus]

   Giving Brutes something to do with Fury, that also debuffs enemies, is going full circle.  I'm not saying that it would be bad, but it's LITERALLY just swapping Brutes to the position Tankers were in with Bruising.  The compensation for doing less damage than the other AT, is to be a shitty support and partially increase the team's damage.  Going this way also brings Brutes into "stepping on Sentinels' toes" territory, not that Sents are a good idea in any way.  Sents are an answer in search of a problem, but they're also currently the damage dealer / armor AT that has a -25% Resistance debuff as their inherent.  That debuff is single target BTW.  So you'd need to be really careful about giving an AoE -Resistance debuff to Brutes.

 

   I think most of these suggestions are overdesigned in principle: the solution always lies with Fury and only with Fury: no new active powers necessary.  Making Fury do more things or build in different ways is all that needs to be done.

[Vanden]

19 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

 Any damage buff shunts the problem onto Scrappers.  Any defense buff shunts the problem onto Tankers.  The goal here is to sidestep that by giving Brutes a role mechanic neither Scrapper nor Tanker ever explores... a full control power.

 

Not necessarily. Brutes at high Fury already outdamage Scrappers, but Scrappers' criticals make up for it. The criticals would still make up for it even if Brutes had the higher non-crit damage while running Build Up as well.

[ThatGuyCDude]

10 hours ago, CrusaderDroid said:

You might be able to sidestep @Shin Magmus's concerns (and my own) if Roar didn't drain Fury, but locked it at its current level for the duration. That way you aren't trading away your offense for CC when you could have just AoE spammed your way to victory without it.

 

Also: Careful about theme! Themes are great guides for gameplay, but gameplay is more important than theme. Ideally we get the two to work together, but janky thematic mechanics are worse than generic mechanics that Just Work. In this case, I can just as easily argue that a Brute angry enough to be Roaring at people has hit the point where their Fury really isn't going to stop.

I guess we could drop the crash, since Fury generation would be inhibited by reduced incoming hits.  I was concerned that without some sort of penalty the crowd control granted would be unfair to Controllers and Dominators, especially in leveling content where they don't have access to anything nearly as good.  It evens out around level 20 [and drops off to half-competition beyond that], but that 10-20 range would hurt MORE for those archetypes due to this change.

I wonder if the objections would still be so vocal if Roar continued to provide the Build Up damage and toHit bonuses?
 

6 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

   Giving Brutes something to do with Fury, that also debuffs enemies, is going full circle.  I'm not saying that it would be bad, but it's LITERALLY just swapping Brutes to the position Tankers were in with Bruising.  The compensation for doing less damage than the other AT, is to be a shitty support and partially increase the team's damage.  Going this way also brings Brutes into "stepping on Sentinels' toes" territory, not that Sents are a good idea in any way.  Sents are an answer in search of a problem, but they're also currently the damage dealer / armor AT that has a -25% Resistance debuff as their inherent.  That debuff is single target BTW.  So you'd need to be really careful about giving an AoE -Resistance debuff to Brutes.

 

   I think most of these suggestions are overdesigned in principle: the solution always lies with Fury and only with Fury: no new active powers necessary.  Making Fury do more things or build in different ways is all that needs to be done.

Therein lies the problem: if it's a straight race for damage then the Brute is going to lose out for Critical hits.  If damage is the only thing considered in the adjustment, then the melee archetypes are simply playing Hot Potato with the bad penny.  Stalkers don't have this problem because they have a mechanic unique to them: easy-access effective stealth for scouting and an on-demand major critical.

Tweaking Fury's interaction is going to come across as a passive change, and won't change the identity of the archetype [even if you come up with something bizarre like Fury rating -> Crit Chance, Crits drain Fury].  A crowd control or a debuff to be a swing-support is a direction they can move in: yes, Tanks were there before, but the Brute damage boost mechanic in place is better equipped to handle the lower output tradeoff of being an off-support archetype, and that utility would be enough to nudge them into consideration on teams: not just at endgame content but throughout the game.
It's also not really a 'new' power, it's a proliferated power from a Controller set: specifically the T7 "Gravity Distortion Field" with hold alone at half targets/duration.  If it was a rider on the existing Build Up mechanic, would the objections be as strong?

...Maybe Brutes and Sentinels need to share the same thought space.  If the Sentinel activated inherent was an AoE debuff instead [centered on current target], Brutes could get something similar on their Taunt.  Then the choice becomes threat (Brute) or range (Sentinel).