It's always been this way - a tank's true role

[ZemX]

16 hours ago, tidge said:

Funny thing about this... resistance toggles below level 10 are IMO barely worth toggling on, and really not worth slotting... especially for "SO" theory crafting. So exactly what is an "Alpha Tanker" doing with the build before this point?

 

Sure, 1-10, not much makes a huge difference and if you blink you'll miss it anyway these days, but I still TAKE those toggles when they are available because I want them there and at least 3-slotted for resistance by around 15ish (since I try not to run the first TFs/SFs until I hit their max level to ensure I am not being sidekicked).   If I want them and slotted by then, yeah, I need to start picking them up before 10.  It's usually a couple toggles, a mez protect, and a taunt aura I want if I am going to join a TF team, even a Posi TF, as a Tanker.  Then somewhere between 15 and about 30, I'll add another slot or three depending what sort of IO sets I am shooting for.

 

I hardly think 50% resistance is something to sneeze at if I am tanking on a team, even at that level.  Soloing some damage-focused Tanker is a whole other ball of wax, sure.  But I don't think that's what this thread is about.  We recently ran Frostfire on TTT with our Dark/Stone newbies and I was plenty happy to have my resistance toggles there.  It was still dicey even then.  But it's a weird arc given it's typically started at a high diff level to account for all the leveling you'll do just in each mission.

 

But the main thing is that on a team, you can't turn off punch-voke.  You're getting a lot of, if not all of the aggro, for a team and at a relatively low level.  50% resistance is no soft-capped defense, but it's something and adding an orange or two when needed pushes that into respectable territory as well.

[Icono04]

9 minutes ago, ZemX said:

But I don't think that's what this thread is about. 

Very true. But then again, does anyone really know what this thread IS about? In fact, CAN anyone ever really know what a thread by this OP is about? (The latter might be a more philosophical/existential question than a practical one). 

[Hyperstrike]

3 minutes ago, Icono04 said:

Very true. But then again, does anyone really know what this thread IS about? In fact, CAN anyone ever really know what a thread by this OP is about? (The latter might be a more philosophical/existential question than a practical one). 

Bah!  Enough of this BS and existential questions!

SOMEBODY COME ON UP AND WHACK ME IN THE FACE!

[ZemX]

13 minutes ago, Icono04 said:

Very true. But then again, does anyone really know what this thread IS about? In fact, CAN anyone ever really know what a thread by this OP is about? (The latter might be a more philosophical/existential question than a practical one). 

 

Setting aside WHO created the thread, it is about tanking on a team and it presents the usual tired notions about purely defensive tankers which are in need of debunking, not for the benefit of the person who just rolled into the tanker forum and thought they'd tell us definitively how tankers work, but for anyone else who might be reading and is not yet familiar with how tankers actually work.  I mention the thread topic because that's what my comments are about: team tanking.  Someone with a different goal like farming or soloing, will have different build priorities.

 

As most of us know, you can build a terrifically nigh-indestructible team tanker without skimping tremendously on offense as the OP suggests.  As others have pointed out too, you can also trade some of that toughness for offense and still have "good enough" survivability for most tasks.

[Infinitum]

I don't know how I have missed these. I have been on HC since 2019. 

 

Well shoot, maybe I just forgot.  That happens a lot more the older I get. lol

[Hyperstrike]

7 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Sorry! This still feels like you missed the point of my post originally. In a team scenario, team buffs will overshadow anything a single player can make their toon do, so if you know you're going to be teaming almost all of the time, why put all of your bananas into mitigation? Especially on an AT with inflated armor values?

 

Even as an aside, interaction with the IO system and Incarnates means my Tankers will have the mitigation of a Tanker and hit like a Blaster. I think that's pretty good for a solo venture.

 

I have 4 years on you! Muahahaha- augh my back

In team/League scenarios, all danger is shallow.

Sorry, I don't build EXPECTING teaming.

I build with tossing the tank in, bare naked, recovering from a hangover AND a head injury while being debuffed.

Is it a REALISTIC scenario?

Maybe...

When I go out to the shooting range, do I NEED to truck out a GAU-8 Avenger?

Maybe.

I don't do it because it's NECESSARY.

I do it because it's FUN!

[ZemX]

2 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

I don't do it because it's NECESSARY.

I do it because it's FUN!

 

Right there with you.  My tanker builds are probably overkill for most normal content and it means I have not procc'd all my attacks out to the gills, but for those few moments where things go really pear-shaped on a PuG and I can pull it together?  It feels great.

 

Or just the stupid fun moments like the end of a Ice Mistral with that huge ambush of CoT.  Team downs the AV, wins the Strike Force.... and then everybody but my Rad/TW tanker dies to the ambush.  I just keep fighting. Slowly.  Dead teammates shouting encouragement.  I can't even see my toon amid the pile of behemoths.   One of the team finally says, "Bro.. you can't die, can you?"

 

And it was true.  I was just barely staying ahead of the incoming damage.  Also true: I couldn't defeat them either. Not the bosses anyway.  Fought them to a stalemate and then we all said our goodbyes and punched out.

[Hyperstrike]

36 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Right there with you.  My tanker builds are probably overkill for most normal content and it means I have not procc'd all my attacks out to the gills, but for those few moments where things go really pear-shaped on a PuG and I can pull it together?  It feels great.

 

Or just the stupid fun moments like the end of a Ice Mistral with that huge ambush of CoT.  Team downs the AV, wins the Strike Force.... and then everybody but my Rad/TW tanker dies to the ambush.  I just keep fighting. Slowly.  Dead teammates shouting encouragement.  I can't even see my toon amid the pile of behemoths.   One of the team finally says, "Bro.. you can't die, can you?"

 

And it was true.  I was just barely staying ahead of the incoming damage.  Also true: I couldn't defeat them either. Not the bosses anyway.  Fought them to a stalemate and then we all said our goodbyes and punched out.

"That's OVERKILL!"

Me: Yes???  AAAAND?

There is no such thing as "Overkill".

There is simply "KILL" with ever greater confidence levels.

[Infinitum]

My conceptualization of Tanker goes back to the scene in Fight Club where Lou beats Tyler Durden to a bloody pulp who then proceeds to drown Lou in his own blood making Lou submit - then thanking Lou as he (Lou)walked away in dismay.   

 

Tyler Durden was a SR Tanker if there ever was one - dodges weaves - gets beat up eventually - shot in the face and keeps going with hp getting low but resistance growing stronger the lower it gets. 

 

That - can never be defeated. lol

[DarkRevelation]

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Calling me "Mister" is well above my pay grade,,,,

 

As for "better than the usual best possible".

Base Invincibility.



 

 

I'm sorry man, but those first two are not 'base' invulnerability. If you can't perma something it shouldn't be considered 'base'. I don't want someone who is researching builds at some point in the future to see that and wonder what is going on and try to hit those numbers and not understand why they are not hitting the same numbers.  "Invuln Math" is a sleight of hand trick to impress people on forum boards. Those are cooldowns being used (RoP/Melee) with Melee/Invinc in different combination of 10+ mobs and/or other incarnates. The third one is closest to a 'base', with no mobs or one mob in the area. Those look like your 'Much Mo' build, and the other variations of it with things turned off. The only set that can hit those numbers that you have for resists maxed across the board, except psi, on the top two images as a 'base' is Granite Stone.

 

 

[DarkRevelation]

On 5/15/2024 at 8:04 AM, Diantane said:

I have 3 Preventive Medicine in Particle Shielding (absorption). Gives me an extra 112.56). It also gives me a Large Increase Health Bonus (+35.14), Small Lethal Smash and Mez (2.25%). This was made for me by a friend about a year ago (unslotted it from an old alt). Other than that I have never used anything beyond SO's or done anything past filling Hybrid because I have no idea how it all works.

 

How is this not a troll?

[tidge]

5 minutes ago, DarkRevelation said:

How is this not a troll?

 

[DarkRevelation]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

 

Darmok and Jalad, at Tanagra

 

❤️

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, DarkRevelation said:

The only set that can hit those numbers that you have for resists maxed across the board, except psi, on the top two images as a 'base' is Granite Stone.

 

You can do it with Dark, Rad, and Elec also - hitting every category but 1 - Elec is 2 categories - but gets close. 

 

I am ok with saturating invincibility and posting a screenshot as the norm - I usually specify that - because the norm as tankers is that we are and should be surrounded.  As we get to lower saturations the drop in defense won't matter (I usually have melee softcapped on invul to offset this) plus resistances take over.  Plus you also have dull pain as an effective HP barrier. 

[DarkRevelation]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

You can do it with Dark, Rad, and Elec also - hitting every category but 1 - Elec is 2 categories - but gets close. 

 

 

Fire gets hosed again on the resist sets. 

 

TY for the info. I've seen Rad get close, but missing two categories. I haven't played enough Dark/Elec tanks yet to see, but I am working on one of each. 

 

  

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I am ok with saturating invincibility and posting a screenshot as the norm - I usually specify that - because the norm as tankers is that we are and should be surrounded.  As we get to lower saturations the drop in defense won't matter (I usually have melee softcapped on invul to offset this) plus resistances take over.  Plus you also have dull pain as an effective HP barrier. 

 

I build my Invuln builds for perma DP for that reason. 

 

Edited May 16, 2024 by DarkRevelation
missed the 2nd part of the quote

[Infinitum]

Just now, DarkRevelation said:

 

Fire gets hosed again on the resist sets. 

 

TY for the info. I've seen Rad get close, but missing two categories. I haven't played enough Dark/Elec tanks yet to see, but I am working on one of each. 

 

 

 

Fire also has healing flames and Moar damage. 😁. It's just fine. 

 

I think I got fire to all but 3 categories.  Maybe 4.memory is fuzzy there

[DarkRevelation]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Fire also has healing flames and Moar damage. 😁. It's just fine. 

 

I think I got fire to all but 3 categories.  Maybe 4.memory is fuzzy there

 

The love/hate relationship with Burn has been interesting from the beginning. 

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, DarkRevelation said:

 

The love/hate relationship with Burn has been interesting from the beginning. 

No doubt.

 

I remember back in the day always wanting a controller to come with my Fire tanker - when Burn caused scatter - to hold them in place so I could campfire them. 

[DarkRevelation]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No doubt.

 

I remember back in the day always wanting a controller to come with my Fire tanker - when Burn caused scatter - to hold them in place so I could campfire them. 

 

I heavily invested in Quicksand on my spines/fire scrapper for the same reason. I'd have to pull to a V corner and get them stuck in there before I let it fly. 

 

The questions about Burn were from literally the beginning. So many nerfs and unnerfs and back again over the course of time. I question if any other single power has been changed as often as Burn over the 20 years? 

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, DarkRevelation said:

I question if any other single power has been changed as often as Burn over the 20 years? 

 

Single power changes - I doubt it. Burn has to be at the top, if not it's up there. 

[Neiska]

30 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Single power changes - I doubt it. Burn has to be at the top, if not it's up there. 

 

There's an "Add-Infinitum" joke to be made here, but my wit fails me. My ancestors look on in shame. Forgive me.

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

There's an "Add-Infinitum" joke to be made here, but my wit fails me. My ancestors look on in shame. Forgive me.

 

My name is an interesting story. Ended up straight from geek ville. Which I still currently reside - and not ashamed of that. lol

 

This was back in 2005 ish I had gotten this game for Christmas from my wife - our first year of marriage. Every name I tried was taken. 

 

So i had this book I pulled out to look for inspiration.  I got this book back when I had aspirations to be the inventor of warp drive - this book was about cutting edge tech and future space travel tech (this was back in 1994). And there was a logo on a future spacecraft that said Ex Astra Ad Infinitum. 

 

The rest is history. 

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, DarkRevelation said:

 

I'm sorry man, but those first two are not 'base' invulnerability. If you can't perma something it shouldn't be considered 'base'. I don't want someone who is researching builds at some point in the future to see that and wonder what is going on and try to hit those numbers and not understand why they are not hitting the same numbers.  "Invuln Math" is a sleight of hand trick to impress people on forum boards. Those are cooldowns being used (RoP/Melee) with Melee/Invinc in different combination of 10+ mobs and/or other incarnates. The third one is closest to a 'base', with no mobs or one mob in the area. Those look like your 'Much Mo' build, and the other variations of it with things turned off. The only set that can hit those numbers that you have for resists maxed across the board, except psi, on the top two images as a 'base' is Granite Stone.

 

 

"That's not baseline..."

I don't build for "baseline".

I may as well advertise "No IOs">

And with variable values in things like INVINCIBLE which depends on the number of enemies in range, it's always going to be variable.

In that case, please tell me how much damage zero enemies are doing to you.  When even ONE steps into range and softcaps you.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

"That's not baseline..."

I don't build for "baseline".

I may as well advertise "No IOs">

And with variable values in things like INVINCIBLE which depends on the number of enemies in range, it's always going to be variable.

In that case, please tell me how much damage zero enemies are doing to you.  When even ONE steps into range and softcaps you.

 

I believe more is being said about the appearance of your res being capped across the board.  That is an illusion because it isn't perma - and you shouldn't advertise that as your baseline because there is no way it can be with invul.

 

Baseline in my opinion is static numbers 24/7 - which could apply to invincibility being saturated - because 10 ain't killing ya and as long as you don't kill them. It's static. lol

 

I get it and most longtime players will get it but newer players won't understand you likely have rune or melee core toggled on.   Now if you advertise it as baseline with melee core etc then - fair play. 

Edited May 17, 2024 by Infinitum

[DarkRevelation]

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

"That's not baseline..."

I don't build for "baseline".
 

 

I'm pretty sure you advertised those sleight of hand numbers as Base Invincibility. Just to make sure let's run it back and see.

 

17 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Calling me "Mister" is well above my pay grade,,,,

 

As for "better than the usual best possible".

Base Invincibility.



 

As for "better than the usual best possible".

Base Invincibility.

 

Your words, not mine. 

 

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

"That's not baseline..."

I don't build for "baseline".

I may as well advertise "No IOs">

And with variable values in things like INVINCIBLE which depends on the number of enemies in range, it's always going to be variable.

In that case, please tell me how much damage zero enemies are doing to you.  When even ONE steps into range and softcaps you.

 

 

You advertised those inflated numbers as Base Invincibility.  They are not the base for invincibility. You can't hit those resists outside of Unstoppable without using cooldowns/incarnates/inflated numbers of mobs around you. For someone who is new and doesn't know any better they will take those numbers and run with it, and wonder why they can't hit those. You can post whatever numbers/mobs/incarnates/cooldowns you want, but you can't call what you posted Base Invincibility. It's not, and no matter how much you want to have 10+ mobs around you to boost your defense numbers all of the time, that is not reality either. Let's call it what it really is;  You didn't like what Spaghetti Betty said so you cooked the numbers to try to make a point on a forum board by showing cooldowns/incarnates/max mobs from your old Much Mo build and called it Base Invincibility. It ain't, and no matter how much you pontificate on the grandeur of being a God tank, you can't hit those numbers without using all of those tricks, at least not on Invuln.  The 'I may as well advertise "No IOs"' is nothing but hyperbole. It is just more of the over the top exaggerated bravado that no one is buying.

 

I'd be happy to debate why using the old softcap number of 45% that you referred to is not the standard you should be using anymore unless all you fight is lvl 50 minions. Just let me know.