It's always been this way - a tank's true role

[Diantane]

I've been playing COH since the first hour of LIVE. The team is assembled, they stand right before the enemy and then they freeze. Waiting for something that will start the battle. Its like they are waiting for someone else to do something. Starting the "Alpha" attack which will harm that player beyond belief.

 

I've seen this and decided to do something about it. To create an "Alpha Tank" that will immediately jump into a group of baddies and be able to take  plenty of punishment. These tanking players do the same on other mmo's, but there the healer is standing by ready to aid the tank. In this game its rarely that organized. So the tank that I create has to be defensive enough to take a beating without much help from the rest of the team.

 

Tried many combinations of tanks and kept failing. They had no staying abilities. So I created a list of goals:

 

1) High endurance recovery

2) Lower endurance use

3) Very high defense

4) Very high health

 

Tried Invul and it was a very good defense, but ran out of endurance quickly and all of the defensive toggles dropped. The same with Super Reflexes.

 

The best defense I tried was Radiation. Not only is the defense high, but they get the essence of two stamina's with Gamma Boost, a very high absorption (1,100 with single origin enhancements at 50) with Particle Shielding, a negative to-hit buff with Beta Decay, a substantial heal with Radiation Therapy and a emergency defense with very little loss when it ends with Meltdown.

 

As they say, your best defense is a good offense. I found that Ice Melee gives you the best "defense." Using Ice Patch keeps most from touching you. With two recharge reduction enhancements and Hasten, I can keep up to two patches going at once; casting another in 2-3 seconds. And Frozen Aura does just as much AoE damage as Foot Stomp does with Super Strength. Except all of my other attack powers slow the enemy down and accept a "Slow" enhancement.

 

In first creating this tank, I chose only defense powers with my first attack power at level 10 (Taunt) and my second at level 20 (Ice Patch). My third attack power came at level 30 -- tier 9's Frozen Aura. But by then I had all of my defenses including Tough and Weave. After that I filled in with the other secondary powers. I also trained Leadership's Maneuvers and Tactics so I could see through "blindness." As well as Teleportation to get Fold Space so I could tighten up nearby groups.

 

I've been working with this 50 vet often and he's definitely a team pleaser.

[PeregrineFalcon]

28 minutes ago, Diantane said:

Tried Invul and it was a very good defense, but ran out of endurance quickly and all of the defensive toggles dropped. The same with Super Reflexes.

Place a Performance Shifter Proc in Stamina and a Numina's and/or Miracle +End in Health and neither will ever have endurance issues.

 

My experience is that Stone and Invulnerability make the toughest tanks, bar none. I've heard good things about Super Reflexes, but my only experience with SR is on Scrappers.

 

And yes, Ice Melee is a good defensive secondary for tanks, but Dark Melee is just a bit better.

[Spaghetti Betty]

2 hours ago, Diantane said:

In first creating this tank, I chose only defense powers with my first attack power at level 10 (Taunt) and my second at level 20 (Ice Patch). My third attack power came at level 30 -- tier 9's Frozen Aura.

I'm so glad I can't read or I would've been highly offended by this.

[Ukase]

I'm glad you have found a way to make some music with an ice tank. I can only play the notes, but no music. 

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Diantane said:

I've been playing COH since the first hour of LIVE. The team is assembled, they stand right before the enemy and then they freeze. Waiting for something that will start the battle. Its like they are waiting for someone else to do something. Starting the "Alpha" attack which will harm that player beyond belief.

 

I've seen this and decided to do something about it. To create an "Alpha Tank" that will immediately jump into a group of baddies and be able to take  plenty of punishment. These tanking players do the same on other mmo's, but there the healer is standing by ready to aid the tank. In this game its rarely that organized. So the tank that I create has to be defensive enough to take a beating without much help from the rest of the team.

 

Tried many combinations of tanks and kept failing. They had no staying abilities. So I created a list of goals:

 

1) High endurance recovery

2) Lower endurance use

3) Very high defense

4) Very high health

 

Tried Invul and it was a very good defense, but ran out of endurance quickly and all of the defensive toggles dropped. The same with Super Reflexes.

 

The best defense I tried was Radiation. Not only is the defense high, but they get the essence of two stamina's with Gamma Boost, a very high absorption (1,100 with single origin enhancements at 50) with Particle Shielding, a negative to-hit buff with Beta Decay, a substantial heal with Radiation Therapy and a emergency defense with very little loss when it ends with Meltdown.

 

As they say, your best defense is a good offense. I found that Ice Melee gives you the best "defense." Using Ice Patch keeps most from touching you. With two recharge reduction enhancements and Hasten, I can keep up to two patches going at once; casting another in 2-3 seconds. And Frozen Aura does just as much AoE damage as Foot Stomp does with Super Strength. Except all of my other attack powers slow the enemy down and accept a "Slow" enhancement.

 

In first creating this tank, I chose only defense powers with my first attack power at level 10 (Taunt) and my second at level 20 (Ice Patch). My third attack power came at level 30 -- tier 9's Frozen Aura. But by then I had all of my defenses including Tough and Weave. After that I filled in with the other secondary powers. I also trained Leadership's Maneuvers and Tactics so I could see through "blindness." As well as Teleportation to get Fold Space so I could tighten up nearby groups.

 

I've been working with this 50 vet often and he's definitely a team pleaser.

 

 

Are you running without extensive set bonuses?   Or set bonuses of any kind? 

[Erratic1]

25 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

 

Are you running without extensive set bonuses?   Or set bonuses of any kind? 

 

Or endurance reduction...or recovery enhancement?

[Thraxen]

This is all in my opinion. A lot from many vet levels. 
 

stone is unkillable and never runs

of end. Mine is build in granite for the sole purpose of tanking and not dying while holding aggro. 
 

SR is pretty much the same. Has 80-90% defense which is way over for incarnate but helps that high while doing four star ITFs. 
 

most tanks don’t run out of endurance if their attacks are slotted for end redux. Dark and ice are end heavy. I’ce had its own fill up. Rad is end heavy but has its own fill up. 
 

putting 3 procs on health and two slotting stamina with end redux in stamina solves 75% of end problems on this game.  

Edited May 15 by Thraxen
Grammar and autocorrect

[Riverdusk]

I've rarely seen any teams "standing around" waiting for someone to take the alpha, especially since level 50 was mentioned.  I can usually take an alpha with almost any AT I play by the time I hit 50 and I've seen the same from most other players.    Tank is going to be very good at it of course and have an easier time of it.   My controllers though in particular also tend to have a pretty easy time breaking alphas (just don't lead off with an aoe immobilize).

 

I find more often when people stand around is when the map is at a crossroad and people just don't necessarily want to choose which way to go.   Or people are just waiting for the brute or tank because that's what is 'expected'.  They do make good team point people to help keep the team all going the same way.

 

 

[Apogee]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

 

 

Are you running without extensive set bonuses?   Or set bonuses of any kind? 

 

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Or endurance reduction...or recovery enhancement?

 

It sounds like he is running without any attacks.  If you don't take any attacks even Dark Armor is fine without slotting up Stamina.

[Diantane]

11 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

 

Are you running without extensive set bonuses?   Or set bonuses of any kind? 

I have 3 Preventive Medicine in Particle Shielding (absorption). Gives me an extra 112.56). It also gives me a Large Increase Health Bonus (+35.14), Small Lethal Smash and Mez (2.25%). This was made for me by a friend about a year ago (unslotted it from an old alt). Other than that I have never used anything beyond SO's or done anything past filling Hybrid because I have no idea how it all works.

[Diantane]

12 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

I'm so glad I can't read or I would've been highly offended by this.

Getting defense was a priority. The team does most of the damage anyway. My defense aids the team so they don't have to receive much damage. Training weak secondary attacks up front is pointless.

Edited May 15 by Diantane

[tidge]

Checks name of OP.

 

[Diantane]

10 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

I've rarely seen any teams "standing around" waiting for someone to take the alpha, especially since level 50 was mentioned.  I can usually take an alpha with almost any AT I play by the time I hit 50 and I've seen the same from most other players.    Tank is going to be very good at it of course and have an easier time of it.   My controllers though in particular also tend to have a pretty easy time breaking alphas (just don't lead off with an aoe immobilize).

 

I find more often when people stand around is when the map is at a crossroad and people just don't necessarily want to choose which way to go.   Or people are just waiting for the brute or tank because that's what is 'expected'.  They do make good team point people to help keep the team all going the same way.

 

 

I obviously didn't start at 50 🙂  So I see this reaction from players waiting for someone else to start it at the brink of combat. Now it doesn't matter what type of AT I'm playing, I always take the alpha as the team leader unless there is a rare tank on the team that knows their role. The best tanking defender is one with Personal Forcefield. I also like tanking with Sentinels.

 

Even if there is a low level tank on the team, I don't expect them to just jump in the middle of a group on alpha if their powers are 50/50 between primary and secondary. Only a  "defensive" tank can handle the onslaught. I jump into the group with my tanks at any level as they were all defensive (taunt is the only attack for quite some time). The team does most of the damage anyway.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Diantane said:

I have 3 Preventive Medicine in Particle Shielding (absorption). Gives me an extra 112.56). It also gives me a Large Increase Health Bonus (+35.14), Small Lethal Smash and Mez (2.25%). This was made for me by a friend about a year ago (unslotted it from an old alt). Other than that I have never used anything beyond SO's or done anything past filling Hybrid because I have no idea how it all works.

 

I was speaking more towards your issues with invul and SR. 

 

Mainly because Shield is the only one I would rank higher than those 2 although very close with all 3 - without the penalty of Stone. 

 

All 3 have the potential for end issues, but the end issues can be overcome in a variety of ways and then be able to tank anything in the game without hesitation. 

 

That's why I was asking.   What your outlook was when you made the determination the end issues were too great to overcome on those. 

[Glowworm]

The idea that tanks have "weak secondary attacks" is untrue. Tank's melee damage scalar is .95; for comparison Blaster and Stalkers are at 1.00. Tanks are capable of doing significant damage, especially when you take into account their large AoEs with high target caps. Tanks are ideal for taking out the trash and then keeping hard targets focused on them. More to the point, they can slot up their attacks well and still be tough enough to tank hard content. The idea that you have to gimp yourself in order to survive and hold aggro just isn't true.  (And attacks are a significant way of generating and holding aggro anyway).

 

Yes, eating the alpha has traditionally been a tank's role but lots of ATs can do that well enough. Tanks excel at it but any big -ACC debuffer or an AoE controller or dominator can blunt it enough to get the job done.  So the idea of a tank who just eats alphas and doesn't otherwise contribute to damage output of the team is pretty underwhelming; I mean, I can see that being a thing at level 10 but if at level 29 that's still the only contribution, that's not what I would expect or want.

[PyroBeetle]

17 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

My experience is that Stone and Invulnerability make the toughest tanks, bar none.

 

I will second Stone for this list, not even factoring in Granite which I did not take, because of its downside. 

 

I recently have been playing a Stone/Fire tank, and this is what he does, he jumps in first wipes out the trash, and the keeps attention while the bosses are whistled down by the team. He can carry a poor team, if necessary.

[LordRabies]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

Checks name of OP.

 

 

It's always a good day when Diantane decides to post something while being unhinged.

[UltraAlt]

17 hours ago, Diantane said:

at level 10 (Taunt)

 

This is pretty much hidden in your post.

I'm tired, but I had to use the chrome search option to search your post to see if it was actually in there.

 

People play tanks differently. I know that there are a good amount of players that think that they should be damage dealers and shouldn't taunt at all, but I think taunt is extremely important for a tank.

I don't consider a tank that doesn't taunt to be a tanker if they are on a team.

 

I usually slot up my taunt so it recharges faster. I put that https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Perfect_Zinger:_Chance_for_Psionic_Damage and a couple (2) other Perfect Zingers in there. Who doesn't want a zero-end power that has chance to do damage? and psionic at that! Really get those enemies mad at you!

 

You can taunt them run behind a corner. A controller runs out as they rush up and glues them down so they can't get LoS (line of sight) to target you, and you are safe from all damage until you pop your head round the corner to taunt them down again.  Meanwhile, the rest of the team is battering them senseless and they can't attack anyone but you!

 

Sure you can jump in the middle of them if you want. Wade in and keep them hitting you left and right while your teammates are safe to batter them down, but some tactics are good unless you just plan on end-gaming steamrolling.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

Checks name of OP.

 

 

What am I missing here?  

 

Is this an Admiral Akbar situation and I need to full reverse? 

[Maelwys]

30 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

What am I missing here?  

Is this an Admiral Akbar situation and I need to full reverse? 

 

If you really want to know, do a post history search.
 

But honestly, no, you're *really* not missing anything.
(I'm pretty sure some of the rest of us are down several wasted hours though...)
 

Edited May 15 by Maelwys

[Erratic1]

2 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I'm pretty sure some of the rest of us are down several wasted hours though...)

 

I spent this morning trying to figure out which of several nearly identically named reports in the legacy report system was the right one to refer to in figuring out how to fulfill a request in the new system. Having found what looked like the right report, I ran it to find all numbers matched the results provided from last year except for one column. It then took digging through the code and tweaking it to get down to detail level to find the indexes on one of the tables is full of junk and will not link with the patient database. Somebody had procedure XYZ done on May 3rd last year and paid $40 for it...I just cannot tell you who.

 

Half my day wasted with no telling how much effort it will take to get things fixed.

 

I NEED this type of entertainment.

 

 

 

Edited May 15 by Erratic1

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

 

What am I missing here?  

 

Is this an Admiral Akbar situation and I need to full reverse? 

 

It is IMO pointless to engage with the OP with anything approaching constructive dialog, based on the long history of the OP

1. Starting blunt, nuance-free threads explaining "how ____ is bad, and that's just how it is" (often the blank is filled with an archetype)
2. Offering a tangential rationalization for the blunt statement, often with some peculiar baseline
3. Harboring an apparent unwillingness to rethink any part of (1), no matter the topic or to reconsider an review of (2), because... there is no such thing as a shared reality?

Even when good advice is posted on one of these threads, I don't think the advice benefits anyone... because players looking for advice wouldn't start with such a thread and... I want to believe... those other players would ask "what am I missing about ____?" and not immediately start with judgemental nonsense.

 

In this particular case, the thesis of the OP is prima facie absurd. Viewed in the context of other claims made by the same account in the last 24 hours (been playing since hour 1 of Live, hosting teams for 4.6 years) it is inconceivable that this player has seen a team "frozen before battle" or "cracked the code" and come up with the tank that has now saved the game for the rest of us. Does anybody really think that Invulnerability is a bad Tanker primary after having tried it? What could possibly have been the metric? Fighting Vahzilok at level 6 in the early days of Live?

 

Y'all have been sweethearts, but we've seen this before.

[Triumphant]

Yeah, it's just more of the same.  *blank* AT is bad, because *blank*.  Then following up with several paragraphs of nonsense, which demonstrate that the OP understands little to nothing about the mechanics of the game (even after having it explained to them multiple times in past similar threads).

[Diantane]

When I post something on a strong topic such as this, and the replies start coming in, I look for constructive replies, but somehow I get a lot of flaming. They should make an AT called Forum Flamer. 

[ZemX]

12 minutes ago, tidge said:

It is IMO pointless to engage with the OP with anything approaching constructive dialog, based on the long history of the OP

 

Not entirely pointless.  You might not get the OP to change their mind, but other people reading who aren't yet very familiar with Tankers could be confused by this nonsense.  It is very common nonsense actually.  I've seen a tanker or two in game that never attacks.  Look at their power sheet secondary powers and you see just the Tier 1 they had to take and maybe Taunt.    And we've probably all seen "pure" Defenders that only heal/buff/debuff.   Same "pre-school" of thought, really.

 

Funny about saying they took Taunt as their "first attack".  I really like Taunt and never skip it but I do usually delay it into the middle of my build at least.  Definitely don't take it at 10.  Too much other stuff I want to fit in early and there's just no burning need for it when taunt aura and punch-voke do most of the taunting anyway.  Nem Staff and Blackwand are my Dollar-Store ranged Taunt powers when I am leveling a newbie Tanker.  No range debuff and they can miss, but they get the job done of pulling aggro off the Blaster.  Get a Kismet and the DFB accuracy buff in those early levels and it hits pretty reliably as long as you aren't inadvisably trying to punch well above your weight.