MM-like AT that leads from the front...

[biostem]

I love playing masterminds, but one thing I'd like to see is a variation on the class that leads from the front and mixes things up/tanks for their pets.  The way I'd see this implemented would be something like this:

 

The AT's primary would be similar to a tanker's melee set.  The secondary would be nearly identical to a Mastermind's primary, but the personal attacks and special power would be replaced with various defensive and status protection toggles/powers.  As a class ability, I'm thinking of a passive effect called "Lead by example", which heals your pets for a % of all healing you receive, (while they're within a certain distance of you), and a damage bonus based upon you having aggro and them not being targeted by said enemies, (or perhaps tie the damage buff into the taunt from the melee primary set).  Your thoughts?

 

As an example, here's a modified MM primary, (which would be this AT's secondary):

 

1. Temp invulnerability

2. Soldiers

3. Dull Pain

4. Equip Mercenary

5. Unyielding

6. Spec Ops

7. Invincibility

8. Commando

9. Tactical Upgrade

[Doctor Brainbottle]

I have a thugs/pain mm that already plays like this. I took the fighting pool, and my playstyle is to run in and start punching things, and let bodyguard mode soak up the damage, which my pain secondary powers are very good at healing. Pretty much any mm secondary with a pbaoe heal power can "tankermind". It's already a thing.

[biostem]

I have a thugs/pain mm that already plays like this. I took the fighting pool, and my playstyle is to run in and start punching things, and let bodyguard mode soak up the damage, which my pain secondary powers are very good at healing. Pretty much any mm secondary with a pbaoe heal power can "tankermind". It's already a thing.

 

Well, that's true to an extent - you're basically dipping into power pools and relying on out-healing the incoming damage.  I want to be able to play the tank for my own little group of minions, without having to spam heals or rely on weaker power pool attacks...

[malonkey1]

Yeah, the "archetype" exists, but the Archetype doesn't yet, and it's likely that a true "Tankermind" AT would likely have a greater variety than just building a Mastermind that can tank.

[Legree]

Would this AT have bodyguard mode?  If so then unequivocally no to this idea - it'd be far more powerful than an actual MM unless the buff/debuff sets and/or pet powers were made less effective than those of an MM.

 

The  other big issue is that few MMs actually take their personal attack powers, except for fun or flavor - so swapping them out for defensive toggles and a self heal is extremely unbalanced.

[biostem]

Would this AT have bodyguard mode?  If so then unequivocally no to this idea - it'd be far more powerful than an actual MM unless the buff/debuff sets and/or pet powers were made less effective than those of an MM.

 

The  other big issue is that few MMs actually take their personal attack powers, except for fun or flavor - so swapping them out for defensive toggles and a self heal is extremely unbalanced.

 

This AT would NOT have bodyguard mode, (instead would be the mechanic where your pets share in a portion of any healing you receive and they're damage gets buffed by them not having enemy aggro or just a damage buff based upon how many enemies have aggro on YOU).  Your point about few MMs taking their personal attacks is noted, but by adding in the defensive toggles in their place, it'd make passing over any such powers a tough decision to make, (as it should be, IMO).

[malonkey1]

Would this AT have bodyguard mode?  If so then unequivocally no to this idea - it'd be far more powerful than an actual MM unless the buff/debuff sets and/or pet powers were made less effective than those of an MM.

 

The  other big issue is that few MMs actually take their personal attack powers, except for fun or flavor - so swapping them out for defensive toggles and a self heal is extremely unbalanced.

 

Honestly, it might be neat to do the reverse: You're bodyguarding your pets.

[Vuhart]

Why would this AT need a full powerset devoted to personal damage when they have pets? I'd recommend a tanker primary instead and replace the MM personal attacks and utility power with melee ones. If the goal is for you to take most of the damage shouldn't the character be focused more on survivability?

 

In either case, you'd have to decide on whether you as the AT deal sub-tanker damage or the pets would need to be pretty heavily nerfed in damage.

 

I apologize if I come across as combative but I've seen a lot or suggestions for MM variants that have conditioned me against the concept. The inherent you proposed does help with the issue of pet survivability that definitely needs addressing.

[biostem]

Why would this AT need a full powerset devoted to personal damage when they have pets? I'd recommend a tanker primary instead and replace the MM personal attacks and utility power with melee ones. If the goal is for you to take most of the damage shouldn't the character be focused more on survivability?

 

In either case, you'd have to decide on whether you as the AT deal sub-tanker damage or the pets would need to be pretty heavily nerfed in damage.

 

I apologize if I come across as combative but I've seen a lot or suggestions for MM variants that have conditioned me against the concept. The inherent you proposed does help with the issue of pet survivability that definitely needs addressing.

 

Well, think of it sort of like the tanker<->scrapper or defender<->corrupter dynamic - whereas a regular MM is damage & support focused, this AT would be centered around tanking/crowd control and damage.  I fully acknowledge that such a class would need a lot of tweaking, but I feel there is a niche to be filled for players who want pets, but also want to be in the thick of things, trading blows with the enemy up-close...

[Vuhart]

Well, think of it sort of like the tanker<->scrapper or defender<->corrupter dynamic - whereas a regular MM is damage & support focused, this AT would be centered around tanking/crowd control and damage.  I fully acknowledge that such a class would need a lot of tweaking, but I feel there is a niche to be filled for players who want pets, but also want to be in the thick of things, trading blows with the enemy up-close...

 

Ok, that's a good analogy to base the discussion around. I still think it might be better to have the defensive powers in the primary but maybe you want to hybridize it with something else? If the defense is in the same set as the pets I feel that limits build flexibility since all 9 powers would be must-haves.

[biostem]

Well, think of it sort of like the tanker<->scrapper or defender<->corrupter dynamic - whereas a regular MM is damage & support focused, this AT would be centered around tanking/crowd control and damage.  I fully acknowledge that such a class would need a lot of tweaking, but I feel there is a niche to be filled for players who want pets, but also want to be in the thick of things, trading blows with the enemy up-close...

 

Ok, that's a good analogy to base the discussion around. I still think it might be better to have the defensive powers in the primary but maybe you want to hybridize it with something else? If the defense is in the same set as the pets I feel that limits build flexibility since all 9 powers would be must-haves.

 

Well, I can see your point regarding the secondary power set, but I don't think putting the defenses in the primary would work out better.  What would you put in the secondaries, then?  Other support powers, perhaps?  What if each summoned pet contributed to your defense in a more active way - like for each T1 pet, you get a bonus to s/l res, the T2's give energy/neg energy, toxic, fire, cold res, and the T3 gives some status protection?  Thus you're incentivized to keep your pets alive, and could theoretically do without one or more of the defensive toggles, as long as you keep your pets alive?  Feels too much like the bodyguard mechanic, IMO.  *shrugs*

[Doctor Brainbottle]

If you ask for an "MM-like AT that leads from the front", MMs are the very definition of being MM-like, and I don't feel they're lacking in the lead-from-the-front department.

 

If what you really want is a "Tank-like AT that also has pets", that could be an entirely different discussion, but then we have to talk about how wimpy the pets have to be to not totally outperform existing tanks that don't have pets.

[malonkey1]

If you ask for an "MM-like AT that leads from the front", MMs are the very definition of being MM-like, and I don't feel they're lacking in the lead-from-the-front department.

 

If what you really want is a "Tank-like AT that also has pets", that could be an entirely different discussion, but then we have to talk about how wimpy the pets have to be to not totally outperform existing tanks that don't have pets.

 

I had a suggestion for a Melee-ish Pet AT called the Duo. My thought was that reducing the pets to a single pet would help alleviate both the risk of an OP AT as well as making it easier to manage, and modifies defensive toggles to double as support auras.

[biostem]

If you ask for an "MM-like AT that leads from the front", MMs are the very definition of being MM-like, and I don't feel they're lacking in the lead-from-the-front department.

 

If what you really want is a "Tank-like AT that also has pets", that could be an entirely different discussion, but then we have to talk about how wimpy the pets have to be to not totally outperform existing tanks that don't have pets.

 

Well, in my original proposal, your secondary consists of your pets and your defenses, so you're sacrificing a good deal of survivability in order to have those pets, and they only really add to your damage.  The current MM is more of a "lead from the back" implementation, where you send your pets in to do the dirty work and support/command them from the rear.  Sure, certain builds can run in with bodyguard on then blast/attack personally, but it's not the same as what I'm talking about...

[Vuhart]

How about this:

Tanker primary as primary, maybe replace one power with taunt

MM primary as secondary, replace boss pet, utility power and ranged attacks with melee so you get a full attack chain and at least 1 aoe.

 

If the goal is for you to be in the action, taking and dealing damage while also have pets, then the above is a middle-ground.

 

 

[biostem]

If you ask for an "MM-like AT that leads from the front", MMs are the very definition of being MM-like, and I don't feel they're lacking in the lead-from-the-front department.

 

If what you really want is a "Tank-like AT that also has pets", that could be an entirely different discussion, but then we have to talk about how wimpy the pets have to be to not totally outperform existing tanks that don't have pets.

 

I had a suggestion for a Melee-ish Pet AT called the Duo. My thought was that reducing the pets to a single pet would help alleviate both the risk of an OP AT as well as making it easier to manage, and modifies defensive toggles to double as support auras.

 

Your proposal is definitely intriguing, but it seems more like , well, just a duo of you and 1 powerful pet.  Mine is more of a single-player team, only with you on the front line instead of directing things form the back.  Still, very cool idea!

[jack_nomind]

What does this proposal offer solo, teamed, in TFs, or in PvP that existing MMs do not do?

[biostem]

What does this proposal offer solo, teamed, in TFs, or in PvP that existing MMs do not do?

 

What do Corruptors offer that Defenders don't?  Those aren't the sole criteria upon which a proposal should stand or fall.  Anyway, this AT would be able to contribute tanking and damage to any team they are on, plus with more targets brought to bear, they could further act as a buffer for their human teammates.

[Solvernia]

Primary: Armor, Secondary: Pets, wouldn't be so bad in. But you would have to scale down the pet damage to Tanker levels so that Tankers aren't made irrelevant.

 

Also AoE would still rip them apart, even moreso without buffs/debuffs.

[jack_nomind]

What do Corruptors offer that Defenders don't?  Those aren't the sole criteria upon which a proposal should stand or fall.  Anyway, this AT would be able to contribute tanking and damage to any team they are on, plus with more targets brought to bear, they could further act as a buffer for their human teammates.

 

Corruptors play redside.  They were introduced at a time when side-switching wasn't possible.  Because of the shake-out of faction crossing, Defenders, Tankers, and Scrappers to this day have an identity crisis.

 

MMs are already, explicitly, a tanking AT, and (as other posters have commented) are even capable of the play style your AT would use.  I think you'd do much better to propose something like a "golem" or "elemental" pets set with a Stone-Armor-like power as the specialty.

 

[ranevan]

I like this idea.  But, as has been said before, probably tone down damage from pets or even more likely tone down their HP so you NEED to be tanking for them to stay alive to do relevant damage.  Possibly have a brute like inherent so the more damage you take the more damage your pets do.  Probably replace the equip pets powers with self buffs or attacks that do practical CC.  Your own attacks should be melee range with maybe a focus on being low damage, but wide area? Possibly make your attacks cause weaknesses your pets can take advantage of for bonus damage so you are incentivised to attack instead of focusing on power pools for buffs.  Or make your minions' attacks give you openings. 

 

I don't know if this AT idea plays much differently than a normal MM, or at least differently to how a MM was expected to be played, but this feels like a different play style.  Make your attacks matter, and make it so your pets can't tank and you will probably feel quite different from the current play style even if it's a similar actual group role. Since in a sense controllers do the same thing as tanks, stopping your group from taking damage but with CC rather than taking all the hits themselves, it's not really the biggest deal if there is overlap in the tanking role.  Some might argue Tankers need buffs to be more versatile rather than other ATs shouldn't be in their space.

[Elthenar]

What do Corruptors offer that Defenders don't?  Those aren't the sole criteria upon which a proposal should stand or fall.  Anyway, this AT would be able to contribute tanking and damage to any team they are on, plus with more targets brought to bear, they could further act as a buffer for their human teammates.

 

Corruptors play redside.  They were introduced at a time when side-switching wasn't possible.  Because of the shake-out of faction crossing, Defenders, Tankers, and Scrappers to this day have an identity crisis.

 

MMs are already, explicitly, a tanking AT, and (as other posters have commented) are even capable of the play style your AT would use.  I think you'd do much better to propose something like a "golem" or "elemental" pets set with a Stone-Armor-like power as the specialty.

 

IT's true. You can make MM's that have fully soft capped defenses. Not just the MM, but the pets too. If you use /Time, you can be soft capped and still have powerful heals, buffs and debuffs.

[Sailboat]

this AT would be centered around tanking/crowd control and damage

 

Sounds like a competitor to Brutes for farming.

[Xaeon]

Honestly the new MM combo I'd want to see is a MM primary with a secondary that picks stuff from support and control pools designed to maximise the number of pets, recharge intensive pets, and pseudo pets you throw on the field (I.E not so much actual controls and supports so much as MORE PETS from the various sets related to the theme), with an inherent that gives a chance to "critical summon" for twice as many pets as the usual summon to make up for your pets being individually weak with almost no real buffs or forms of mitigation; just the sheer weight of numbers. Pave your way to victory upon the broken bodies of your minions. 

 

It'd be absolutely goofy and dumb and I would love every second of throwing wave after wave of disposable cannon fodder at my foes until they choke and die.

[Coyote]

MMs are already, explicitly, a tanking AT, and (as other posters have commented) are even capable of the play style your AT would use.  I think you'd do much better to propose something like a "golem" or "elemental" pets set with a Stone-Armor-like power as the specialty.

 

To be honest, if you make a couple of MM primaries with a mixture of melee attacks and a toggle shield that gives some defensive statistic (Regen, Defense, Resist, Absorb) plus status protection, and give the melee attacks a weak Taunt effect, you would end up with pretty much the same effect as the poster. You do lack some choice in number of attacks, but it would be a lot easier to add into the game than an entire new AT which would have to come with multiple powersets at the start.