LBD's Moderate Mastermind Makeover

[shortguy on indom]

• VERILY APOLOGIZE TO ALL IF MY RESPONSE WAS TAKEN AS CONDESCENDING.
• IMHO NONE OF THE RESPONSES ADDRESSED THE OP ASK.  INCLUDING MINE.
• I LIKE TO VALIDATE W/TESTING, SINCE I AM NOT A MM PLAYER I CANNOT REPLICATE THE ISSUES AT HAND.
• "HARD SAYING NOT KNOWING." - QUOTE FROM A CO-WORKER.

[shortguy on indom]

• SO, BY INITIAL TESTING I CANNOT VALIDATE THE SURVIVABILTY SPREADSHEET NUMBERS.
• NOT SURE ANYONE CAN.
• WHAT IS SKEWING THE RESULTS IS:
  • THE ENEMIES ARE LOSING ENDURANCE, SO AS THEY LOSE END... THEIR RATE OF ATTACK IS DECREASING.
  • BECAUSE OF THAT MY SURVIVABILITY DPS AND TOTAL SURVIVABILITY IN SECONDS IS NOT WHAT THE SS IS SHOWING.
  • SS IS SHOWING ABOUT 1/3 LESS THAN I CAN ACTUALLY WITHSTAND.
• MAYBE IF SS WAS BASED IN UNITS OF 1 OR MORE MINUTES IT WOULD AVERAGE OUT CLOSER TO ACTUAL?... 
• WILL TRY AGAIN OVER AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME.
• HAS ANYONE TRIED THIS... ?

[tidge]

14 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• HAS ANYONE TRIED THIS... ?

 

16 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• WAS THINKING IF THERE WAS A WAY TO SEE HOW MMs HANG IN SURVIVING COMPARED TO OTHER ATs?...WAS ABOUT TO SEE ABOUT MAKING A SIMPLE TOOL, BUT DID A FORUM SEARCH AND FOUND THIS POST/GUIDE: The Survivability Tool - Guides - Homecoming BY BOPPER

 

As with at least one of the other recent 'spreadsheet' efforts (the "why don't I ever see six %damage"?), I think this question about trying to spreadsheet individual MM+henchmen survivability misses the point. The henchmen aren't a player class, the henchmen (can, if directed) increase the survivability of the Mastermind and/or (can, if directed) increase the DPS of the Mastermind.

 

As with the previous %damage spreadsheet effort, this ask is simultaneously too complicated (for many reasons, including the presence of the MM, and whatever the MM is doing) or would too simple to be meaningless (because henchmen, even if not in bodyguard mode don't go off on missions by themselves). My PoV is that this question (second quote box) is missing a lot of fundamental mechanics about not just the MM class but also the game environment, some as detailed by @Rudra above.

 

My own experience is: MM's are perfectly capable of surviving content, but they have to:

• Build for it, Defenses first for themselves and the henches
• Use Bodyguard mode and keep henches nearby to have "MaxHP Pool"
• Don't ignore resistances of the Henchmen... to a point
• Adjust tactics as necessary

[shortguy on indom]

• THE SPREADSHEET DOES ACCOUNT FOR HENCHMEN.  HOW IT DOES THIS, NOT SURE.  (IN SCREENSHOT BELOW, ITS ON LEFT SIDE LOWER AREA).

 

• RESULTS FOR MY DEFENDER ARE SHOWN.  PLEASE NOTE ALL THAT ZERO DEF/RES TOGGLES WERE USED, ALL DEF/RES SHOWN WAS FROM SET-BONUSES ONLY.
• SO, I BELIEVE I FIGURED OUT THE SPREADSHEET WITH MEGA AMOUNTS OF TRIAL AND ERROR ENTRIES.  KEPT ADJUSTING THE ITEMS HIGHLIGHTED UNTIL THEY MATCHED MY KNOWN SURVIVABILITY LIMIT WHICH I USED TO OBTAIN THE IMMORTAL BADGE SOLO.
• RESULTS ARE SHOWN.  MY ISSUE WAS THE 'REGENERATION' ENTRIES.  TRIED MULTIPLE ADJUSTING OF ENTRIES UNTIL THE FINAL APPROX. 97 DPS DAMAGE TAKEN NUMBER WHICH I AM SURE OF WAS REACHED.
• NOTE: TO BE 'SURVIVABLE MEANS THE HP/SEC RECEIVED IS MORE THAN DAMAGE RECEIVED.  (SEE MIDDLE COLUMN HIGHLIGHTED).

 

Edited August 1 by shortguy on indom
ADDED SCREENSHOT

[plainguy]

Two camps here for me.
 

1. Pet upgrades should just be automatic and replaced with 2 NEW Powers for the Player to be able to use.  
   • The issue is then you would not be able to slot IO sets into those upgrade powers anymore and the 2 NEW powers might not workout to have the right sets you need or needed before the change.. So that would upset everyone. 
   • Personally I do not slot any IOs in the pet upgrades on my builds.
   • My simple gripe is no other AT has a semi useless power that is required to upgrade another power.. Meaning without the Pet Upgrade, you pets don't acquire new attacks and defenses. 
     • Imagine creating an Assault Rifle character and needing an upgrade power just to be able to shoot full auto for example. 
   • At the end of the day having 2 new powers will not make you overpowered for the simple fact of the Mastermind Endurance issue. 
     • Having 8 Petless Masterminds I can assure you, that you CANNOT level a Mastermind with just attacks and no pets.. The endurance cost just maket this task Impossible.
     • The only way I was able to achieve this is being power leveled and creating the right build in MidsReborn that covers the endurance cost at level 50.. 
2. Keep the pet upgrades as they are, but again once picked, they are automatic and do not need to be cast. 
   • The play here is basically like with any other Archtype, you upgraded the pets as you leveled.. So you improved you Robots, Your thugs leveled up with you to be stronger, ETC..
   • Again no clue what the issue is here with this.. To me it falls in line with my gripe in number 1.. You got better.. You shouldn't need to reattach swarm rockets to your robot everytime.. 
   • Again No other AT needs to do this. No clue why this was implemented or the gripe with it being automatic regardless. 

This issue above doesn't seem like a big deal UNTIL you are playing against AVs and Elite Bosses ETC and you discover you can't even buff them and upgrade them fast enough because they are getting wiped as soon as they are resummoned. 

Basically you can buff them, they will not attack, BUT THEY CAN BE ATTACK and DAMAGED. 
I made an old post on this several years back. I did some timing and it was upwards of 10 seconds where they can't do anything between being summoned and upgraded.. Again that is a LONG TIME.. 

The common answer is run away and resummon. But again no other AT needs to do this.. 

So this where this automatic upgrade would kill this dead space of 10 seconds to some degree. 

Personally Now if I get a wipe on ROBOT MM.. I summon the other bots and then the Assault BOT but use the 2nd upgrade FIRST so the Assault Bot will fire off Swarm which makes mobs run away and then I try to resummon the other pets because now I have some breathing room. 

In the end Masterminds are or can a difficult Archtype and get limited support because Masterminds are not the games bread and butter..  Even from what has been explained in the past the coding is different compared to other Archtypes which makes it difficult to enhance or improve.

I think this is just something when playing a mastermind you have to accept and live with..   

 

 

 

[Rudra]

29 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Imagine creating an Assault Rifle character and needing an upgrade power just to be able to shoot full auto for example. 

Technically, you do. It is the tier 9 power and it is called Full Auto. The difference being that you have to click it each time you want to use it whereas the MM pet upgrade powers only need to be used once per pet summonings.

 

29 minutes ago, plainguy said:

This issue above doesn't seem like a big deal UNTIL you are playing against AVs and Elite Bosses ETC and you discover you can't even buff them and upgrade them fast enough because they are getting wiped as soon as they are resummoned. 

Mind if I ask how you are deploying your MM and pets? Because I can solo AVs, EBs, and GMs and for most of them, never lose my pets. (Well, I haven't tackled any GMs since they got buffed, so maybe that has changed? Though active pet control goes a long way to mitigating pet wipes.) Some have really bad AoEs, and they get problematic, but you don't need upgraded pets to clear them. (You can also throw your summon location outside of the enemy's reach, and your pets will appear safely.)

 

Edited August 2 by Rudra
Edited to correct "summoned" to "summonings".

[tidge]

I can answer part of @Rudra question about henchmen and nuGMs.

 

For most GMs, it is exceptionally rare that I lose more than one henchman at a time to any GM attack... and I'd say that 80% of the time I resummon a henchman right at the feet of a GM... which is not smart, but I've got a LOT of the aura thing going on. I'l target another nearby henchman or pet, and cast the defensive/resistance buff on that, as soon as I see the new henchman appear in the pet window. Some fraction of time, the new henches are defeated, but it is uncommon enough that I haven't changed my strategy (for most GMs). The hench buffs act like AoE casts, so I can get the newly summoned buffed before I can select them (watch the pet window to see this work).

 

There is one other thing I try to do with GMs... I try to make sure that they have something to hit so that their streakbreaker is less likely to come up in one of the GM big attacks. This isn't a particularly well-considered strategy, but it's something I'll do, often by having a simple buff pet out to be hit by the GM.

 

The other reason I don't try to summon new henchmen away from the MM (when fighting GMs) is because most MM henchmen will immediately move to be adjacent to the MM... and my MMs are almost always in the thick of it, base-to-base with the GM anyway. I may as well get the MM auras on the henches ASAP.

[plainguy]

On 8/2/2024 at 6:15 PM, Rudra said:

Technically, you do. It is the tier 9 power and it is called Full Auto. The difference being that you have to click it each time you want to use it whereas the MM pet upgrade powers only need to be used once per pet summonings.

 

Mind if I ask how you are deploying your MM and pets? Because I can solo AVs, EBs, and GMs and for most of them, never lose my pets. (Well, I haven't tackled any GMs since they got buffed, so maybe that has changed? Though active pet control goes a long way to mitigating pet wipes.) Some have really bad AoEs, and they get problematic, but you don't need upgraded pets to clear them. (You can also throw your summon location outside of the enemy's reach, and your pets will appear safely.)

 

Technically Full Auto is a NEW and DIFFERENT power.. 

Regarding your comment on Soloing AV and EB and GM and I will add in AV.. I can do the same on a petless master mind or with only one pet.. You can click on the link in my signature to see this.

But without a doubt you do loose pets.. What you are saying is a bit of a lie, you can and do loose pets even with a tankermind build. 
But regardless we are not discussing outliers and min and max builds.. We are discussing the average player.. 

Unless the next debate is your doing it wrong.. 

Simple example to this I could NEVER play just using the icons to controls the pets in my power tray.. I MUST use the numpad keybind to do so..  I couldn't imagine someone doing it otherwise.. BUT players do..

Again you want to address something I said.. Please address the whole issue.. Not part of it as if didn't mention anything else..
What I mean by that is simply, the delay of summoning pets and upgrading them makes the pets attackable for around 10 to 14 seconds where the pets cannot return attacks. 
So it NOT just the issue of a pet upgrade or a summoning issue, it is the culmination of both.

If they addressed the upgrade issue then maybe the summoning part would not be so bad.. 
Again just simply use this comparison to any other ArchType and imagine they had to stand around for 10 seconds not being able to do nothing while taking damage.. This is why so many players do NOT take crash powers and request to make the powers crashless and why the Devs have actually changed the crash powers.. 

Just like someone would not want to use a power and have all their endurance drained, No one wants to summon pets and upgrade and have them be defenseless and unuseable for 10 to 14 seconds.. 

At least now if the upgrades were required to be taken and they came upgraded, Then at least when summoned they would be ready to fight.. So 7 ot 8 seconds becomes more bearable or at least accepted ..  
 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

Regarding your comment on Soloing AV and EB and GM and I will add in AV..

Why are you adding AVs to my list of AVs, EBs, and GMs? AVs are already listed.

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

I can do the same on a petless master mind or with only one pet.. You can click on the link in my signature to see this.

Congrats! I don't need to see proof. Doesn't affect the discussion about being able to field pets and keep them alive, but good on you.

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

But without a doubt you do loose pets.. What you are saying is a bit of a lie, you can and do loose pets even with a tankermind build. 

That depends on the enemy, the difficulty settings, and how you are playing. Like I said, I have fought many EBs, AVs, and even GMs, and never lost a single pet as long as I maintained active control. If I stop bothering with commanding my pets and just leave them there? Yeah, they'll die. A lot against some enemies. (Though against others, my pets still never die despite the foe being an EB or AV.)

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

Unless the next debate is your doing it wrong.. 

Nope. Players are free to play however they want within the CoC. They may even find better ways to deploy their pets to keep them alive than what is currently being shared. However, MMs are a very complicated AT and they are intentionally designed to be a challenge as far as I can tell. So players that don't want to worry about those parts of playing MMs are free to do so, but they should expect to have difficulties until they find an approach that works for them.

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

Technically Full Auto is a NEW and DIFFERENT power.. 

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

Again you want to address something I said.. Please address the whole issue.. Not part of it as if didn't mention anything else..
What I mean by that is simply, the delay of summoning pets and upgrading them makes the pets attackable for around 10 to 14 seconds where the pets cannot return attacks. 
So it NOT just the issue of a pet upgrade or a summoning issue, it is the culmination of both.

Except I was considering it. In order to use your assault rifle on full auto, you have to click the Full Auto power every time. Once your pets are summoned, they keep fighting until they die or you make them stop. And MMs get 6 pets discounting any from their secondary. And they don't even need to be upgraded to be effective, though it definitely helps. And you can upgrade any of your pets even when they are going through the summoning lock out. Just click a surviving pet or a combat NPC following you around and throw the upgrades on them. It still applies to the newly summoned henchmen even if they are still under selection lockout. And if you need to summon pets against a foe that keeps AoE'ing? Summon them outside the enemy's attack radius. Make use of your secondaries buffs and debuffs. Actively command your pets, including ordering them in or out of combat. If you use the NumPad to control your pets? Okay. No one says you have to use the icons. So I don't get why you felt the need to point that out.

 

Edit: And as far as the pets being attackable for 10-14 seconds while themselves not being able to attack back? We both know that is a lie. Once the pets get through their lockout phase of being summoned, they immediately start attacking anything that is currently attacking them or the summoning MM.

 

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

Again just simply use this comparison to any other ArchType and imagine they had to stand around for 10 seconds not being able to do nothing while taking damage..

What AT has to stand around for 10 seconds doing nothing while taking damage? Now if you're talking about ATs while they are Held or Stunned, okay, but that isn't part of this discussion. MMs do not have to stand around for 10 seconds doing nothing except eat damage. Even if they need to summon pets. MMs do have their own attacks they can use. MMs can be throwing debuffs on the enemies. And even if all the MM does is summon pets, that is 6.09 seconds. And those pets, as already stated, are more than capable of killing any foe even without their upgrades. So if you're in a tight spot and having to re-summon everything? Throw your summons, maintain your buffs/debuffs, and attack. Then summon new pets as needed. If you are just standing there twiddling your thumbs for 10 seconds and you aren't mezzed, that's on you.

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

Just like someone would not want to use a power and have all their endurance drained, No one wants to summon pets and upgrade and have them be defenseless and unuseable for 10 to 14 seconds.. 

The pets are only as defenseless as you choose to leave them. They may be useless outside of soaking up your MM's damage until they finish getting through their summoning, but they can still soak damage for you and you can still upgrade them even when they can't be targeted/selected by you. (By the time you finish using a summon power, any previous summon is already selectable for anything you want to do. So even your time frame is wrong. They are unavailable for at most 2.03 seconds.)

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

At least now if the upgrades were required to be taken and they came upgraded,

Devs already said they will not allow that.

Edited August 12 by Rudra

[plainguy]

14 hours ago, Rudra said:

Why are you adding AVs to my list of AVs, EBs, and GMs? AVs are already listed.

 

Congrats! I don't need to see proof. Doesn't affect the discussion about being able to field pets and keep them alive, but good on you.

 

That depends on the enemy, the difficulty settings, and how you are playing. Like I said, I have fought many EBs, AVs, and even GMs, and never lost a single pet as long as I maintained active control. If I stop bothering with commanding my pets and just leave them there? Yeah, they'll die. A lot against some enemies. (Though against others, my pets still never die despite the foe being an EB or AV.)

 

Nope. Players are free to play however they want within the CoC. They may even find better ways to deploy their pets to keep them alive than what is currently being shared. However, MMs are a very complicated AT and they are intentionally designed to be a challenge as far as I can tell. So players that don't want to worry about those parts of playing MMs are free to do so, but they should expect to have difficulties until they find an approach that works for them.

 

 

Except I was considering it. In order to use your assault rifle on full auto, you have to click the Full Auto power every time. Once your pets are summoned, they keep fighting until they die or you make them stop. And MMs get 6 pets discounting any from their secondary. And they don't even need to be upgraded to be effective, though it definitely helps. And you can upgrade any of your pets even when they are going through the summoning lock out. Just click a surviving pet or a combat NPC following you around and throw the upgrades on them. It still applies to the newly summoned henchmen even if they are still under selection lockout. And if you need to summon pets against a foe that keeps AoE'ing? Summon them outside the enemy's attack radius. Make use of your secondaries buffs and debuffs. Actively command your pets, including ordering them in or out of combat. If you use the NumPad to control your pets? Okay. No one says you have to use the icons. So I don't get why you felt the need to point that out.

 

Edit: And as far as the pets being attackable for 10-14 seconds while themselves not being able to attack back? We both know that is a lie. Once the pets get through their lockout phase of being summoned, they immediately start attacking anything that is currently attacking them or the summoning MM.

 

 

What AT has to stand around for 10 seconds doing nothing while taking damage? Now if you're talking about ATs while they are Held or Stunned, okay, but that isn't part of this discussion. MMs do not have to stand around for 10 seconds doing nothing except eat damage. Even if they need to summon pets. MMs do have their own attacks they can use. MMs can be throwing debuffs on the enemies. And even if all the MM does is summon pets, that is 6.09 seconds. And those pets, as already stated, are more than capable of killing any foe even without their upgrades. So if you're in a tight spot and having to re-summon everything? Throw your summons, maintain your buffs/debuffs, and attack. Then summon new pets as needed. If you are just standing there twiddling your thumbs for 10 seconds and you aren't mezzed, that's on you.

 

The pets are only as defenseless as you choose to leave them. They may be useless outside of soaking up your MM's damage until they finish getting through their summoning, but they can still soak damage for you and you can still upgrade them even when they can't be targeted/selected by you. (By the time you finish using a summon power, any previous summon is already selectable for anything you want to do. So even your time frame is wrong. They are unavailable for at most 2.03 seconds.)

 

Devs already said they will not allow that.

The simple fact that your opening quote is complaining that I brought up AV twice clearly shows me that you are just looking to derail and just picking the fly shit out of the pepper.

I mean honestly.. The AV comment is up for debate now.. This is the direction you want to bring the topic to?

Then followed up by cutting my post in the next quote to represent me as giving misinformation or incorrect info clearly shows you don't to actually debate or discuss something here.. You just to post stuff knowing full well most are not going to read my full comment that you incorrectly took a snippet from to misquote me and of course based on that information, what you are saying sounds possibly reasonable or correct.

So basically you don't want to debate or discuss fairly.. 

Mind you if you just simply addressed the whole, you know Plainguy, I did some looking and testing and what you are saying is incorrect.. Summon pets near a group of hostile mobs does not make them get attacked or that they are immune to mob attacks during the summoning or that the pets can in fact attack back during the animation. So you are wrong when you say pets cannot fight back during this summoning period and also testing the upgrade time you are incorrect. I could accept and debate that..

But not this BS.
You are going down this rabbit hole on your own..  

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

Summon pets near a group of hostile mobs does not make them get attacked

Summon your pets near hostile mobs, and those pets will be attacked unless something else is holding the mobs' attention.

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

they are immune to mob attacks during the summoning

Pets can most definitely be attacked and defeated by mobs during their summoning. As long as they are present in your pet window and their model is on the field, even if you cannot target/select them, mobs most definitely can.

 

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

the pets can in fact attack back during the animation

Pets cannot attack during their summoning animations.

 

I never claimed any of these things you are saying, so why are you attributing any of this to me?

 

Let me try to clarify what I said.

1) Pets can be upgraded with their upgrade powers even if you cannot select them/target them to apply the upgrades. As long as you have a usable target to apply the upgrade to, even if that target cannot be affected by the upgrade such as a combat NPC such as Back Alley Brawler or any other that is with you. So if you have a Dark Servant, you have a surviving primary power set pet, you have a fighting NPC with you, or you have anything else associated with your character at that time, you can target that something and apply the pet upgrade(s) and it will catch and upgrade even your freshly summoned pets that you still cannot target yourself.

2) Pets can still fight, and with no loss in combat ability, just a lack of some combat powers, even when not upgraded.

3) Pets do not have a 10-14 second lockout window. They are targetable by the player and start fighting attacking enemies not later than 2.03 seconds from when they are summoned. How much sooner? I don't know. I don't time them. However, I do know that my ninja pet summons take 2.03 seconds and any other pets I summoned before that summon is active before I even finish the current summon.

4) If fighting an enemy that keeps AoE'ing pets when they are summoned, you can prevent that by placing the summon location outside of the enemy's attack radius.

5) If fighting an enemy that is pressing you and your pets, you are not stuck doing nothing for 10 seconds. Even just summoning new pets takes 6.09 seconds. And you can summon pets around throwing your own attacks, adding debuffs to the enemy, buffing yourself, using inspirations, popping heals, or any other action you want or need to take.

6) Players will need to tailor their approaches to their enemy. Active pet control, which only MMs get, goes a long way to bolstering pet effectiveness and survivability. If a player wants to just summon pets and then leave them on autopilot like a Controller or Dominator? That is their choice, but then they are losing out on a large part of the MM's functionality.

 

And lastly, if you want me to address your post as a whole, then don't make multiple sections I need to address separately.

 

Am I saying that MMs as an AT are perfect and that nothing can or should be done to help them? Not even close. MMs have their challenges and their weaknesses. MMs struggle to maintain peak effectiveness in some content or difficulty settings. MM pets getting level shifts to make even the T1s equal in combat level to the incarnate shifted MM was a huge help to MMs. However, if you are going to argue for buffs to MMs, then you need to be honest about where MMs actually stand and accept what the devs have already told us about what they are not going to implement for MM changes.

[tidge]

I'll repeat: As near as I can tell, The period of time between when a henchman model appears on the field/pet window and when the player can actively select the henchman as a target appears to only be a combination of "animation lockout" (*1) and "server-client delay"(*2). I really don't think this is a "configurable" element... if this is make-or-break, it is pretty much only the players' wetware that can be modified.

 

(*1) I've observed this with henchmen (and pets): if the thing is in the middle of an animation, it is possible that the client (i.e. player) can't take certain actions. Specific to MMs and their henchmen: I can never drag an inspiration onto my T3 Assault Bot once it is engaged in battle, as it is constantly ycling through its attacks. Every other henchman (and pets!) on that mastermind can take an inspiration drop (unless the pet is forbidden, like a green insp on a Maintenance Drone).

 

(*2) Players can AoE/PBAoE enemies bore they can be targeted. (oh hai Super Stunner!) During a league event like a Rikti Invasion Henchmen and pets can target enemies before players can via the client.