Minimal FX Kheld Forms

[ValiantBlu]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Question for the Lore Purists and needing forms for extra damage/tankiness…

 

Can Requiem, Arakhn, and Romulus (all Nictus; identical to Warshades in all but philosophy) inflict and take damage like an archvillain while remaining in human form?

 

If so (and it is), then your interpretation of the lore about needing the forms for firepower or resilience is just wrong.

For me the main point is that the lore does not expressly forbid being powerful without transforming, it just lists transforming as one avenue to doing this, and since the powers you gain from the forms are identical to your human powers there’s absolutely no lore reason why you should have to transform to gain these powers… but from a gameplay standpoint, as these are objectively your best toggle buffs, they really shouldn’t be ignored depending on your build goals. 

 

I will concede that teleporting as a PB and flying as a WS was once only possible with the use of transformations, but that restriction has long been lifted and can now be achieved with pools. 
 

It’s squares and rectangles here, and the idea that you can’t have these power boosts as a HEAT without transforming is like saying that any shape not a square is also not a rectangle. It doesn’t logically follow. This argument isn’t to say that it’s consistent with the intention of the lore, idk I didn’t write it. But it’s also not inconsistent with what’s written either, that argument is invalid. 
 

the lore also implies that (at least some) Kheldians should have access to other forms beyond the squid and lobster, so the suggestion to add fully customizable forms would be consistent with the lore as well. 

Edited August 13 by ValiantBlu

[EmperorSteele]

I feel bad for the poor kheldians when they take a new host, and it's like, "Ooh, this big form is really tough! And this squiggly form hits hard! What's this 'hoo-man' one do?"

 

"Oh, that's Steve. He doesn't do anything special."

 

"Nothing at all?"

 

"Yeah, it was a crap deal. 7 billion people, half of them with super powers, and I got saddled with an accountant from the suburbs who decided to use my powers as an excuse to live out his mid-life crisis."

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

I feel bad for the poor kheldians when they take a new host, and it's like, "Ooh, this big form is really tough! And this squiggly form hits hard! What's this 'hoo-man' one do?"

 

"Oh, that's Steve. He doesn't do anything special."

 

"Nothing at all?"

 

"Yeah, it was a crap deal. 7 billion people, half of them with super powers, and I got saddled with an accountant from the suburbs who decided to use my powers as an excuse to live out his mid-life crisis."

👍

[Ghost]

I’m curious @ValiantBlu

What would you be willing to give up in order for this change to happen?

 

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I’m curious @ValiantBlu

What would you be willing to give up in order for this change to happen?

 

I'm waiting for "The forms" as response....

[ValiantBlu]

3 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I’m curious @ValiantBlu

What would you be willing to give up in order for this change to happen?

 

Nothing

 

Question, why should a cosmetic option come with a caveat?

[Owl Girl]

this isn't a trade-off sorta thing because no functional advantage is being gained. that's like asking what Spines should lose for getting the option to visually appear as metal spikes instead of organic bananas.

[Ghost]

54 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

Nothing

 

Question, why should a cosmetic option come with a caveat?

Well, just about everything that can be said has been said about this topic - so I was curious if this was a “I’d be willing to compromise” or a “Gimme gimme gimme cause I want want want” request.

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, Owl Girl said:

this isn't a trade-off sorta thing because no functional advantage is being gained. that's like asking what Spines should lose for getting the option to visually appear as metal spikes instead of organic bananas.

Except it is. When a character goes Nova or Dwarf form, they lose access to all their human form powers, including any powers that may be shared between them, to gain access to 4 attacks that hit harder than normal or to gain access to better damage resists. If this was a cosmetic change, then the Kheldian character would not lose access to their human form powers. The human form powers would not be suppressed, and the shapeshifted powers could be used in human form.

 

Asking for an alternate animation for Spines to have it appear as bananas does not alter any of the power set's powers. All those powers in Spines would still be available as normal, just with a different animation. (Edit: As opposed to the OP which is asking for the Nova and Dwarf powers to be changed in how they work.)

 

Edited August 13 by Rudra

[ValiantBlu]

13 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Well, just about everything that can be said has been said about this topic - so I was curious if this was a “I’d be willing to compromise” or a “Gimme gimme gimme cause I want want want” request.

There's no reason for a compromise.

It's an option. People who don't like it aren't required to use it, so it doesn't affect people who disagree with it.

It's a cosmetic so there's no reason for any kind of balance change.

 

For the life of me I can't think of a single thing to give up that would make it a compromise. No one is losing anything by providing more options to all players.

[megaericzero]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Except it is. When a character goes Nova or Dwarf form, they lose access to all their human form powers, including any powers that may be shared between them, to gain access to 4 attacks that hit harder than normal or to gain access to better damage resists. If this was a cosmetic change, then the Kheldian character would not lose access to their human form powers. The human form powers would not be suppressed, and the shapeshifted powers could be used in human form.

Wut? (To my understanding) this thread has always been a purely cosmetic request; everything would still function the exact same except for the model swap.

[ValiantBlu]

23 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Except it is. When a character goes Nova or Dwarf form, they lose access to all their human form powers, including any powers that may be shared between them, to gain access to 4 attacks that hit harder than normal or to gain access to better damage resists. If this was a cosmetic change, then the Kheldian character would not lose access to their human form powers. The human form powers would not be suppressed, and the shapeshifted powers could be used in human form.

 

Asking for an alternate animation for Spines to have it appear as bananas does not alter any of the power set's powers. All those powers in Spines would still be available as normal, just with a different animation. (Edit: As opposed to the OP which is asking for the Nova and Dwarf powers to be changed in how they work.)

 

I'm sorry but I just want to make sure I understand

Are you under the impression that I want access to the nova and human attacks simultaneously?

 

I expect the forms to function exactly as they do now, but without looking like a squid or a lobster

You would still hit the transformation button

You would still lose access to all of your human form powers

You would still gain access to the same 4 attack powers

 

Not one person is asking for a functional change, I just don't wanna look like a squid or a lobster

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Wut? (To my understanding) this thread has always been a purely cosmetic request; everything would still function the exact same except for the model swap.

 

19 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

I'm sorry but I just want to make sure I understand

Are you under the impression that I want access to the nova and human attacks simultaneously?

 

I expect the forms to function exactly as they do now, but without looking like a squid or a lobster

You would still hit the transformation button

You would still lose access to all of your human form powers

You would still gain access to the same 4 attack powers

 

Not one person is asking for a functional change, I just don't wanna look like a squid or a lobster

When a person asks for an alternate animation, all that is changed is what animation the power(s) use(s). When a player chooses one of the available animations for a given power, all the game has to store is a pointer to the correct animation for that power. When a person asks for a minimal FX option, all that is changed is whether or not the existing animation retains special visual FX like glitter. When a player chooses a minimal FX option, all the game has to store is a pointer to a stripped down version of the animation. Asking to change Nova and Dwarf is asking to change the powers themselves. When you click the Nova form or Dwarf form power, the power does a call to the game that removes your character model and replaces it with another character model around which the now available powers are animated, while also suppressing all powers not assigned to the chosen form. The request is not for an alternate animation or even for minimal FX, it is a request to change how the powers themselves work. So that the power has to change whether it does a call for model replacement or not. And then the linked powers for the Nova or Dwarf form have to then also make a call for animations appropriate to the new model. (Which only really applies to the Nova form, I believe, since I think the Dwarf form uses humanoid animations.)

 

What does this mean? Let's go with 'just keep my current appearance'. The Nova and Dwarf shapeshift powers are changed so that they grant the player the ability to either use the Nova/Dwarf form or their current character model, and no other choices. In the case of Nova, now the associated attacks for the Nova form have to make a different call, automatically, to use humanoid animations instead of hovering squid animations, but only if the Bright Nova/Dark Nova power is assigned by the player to not replace their character model. Otherwise, the 4 attacks have to still use their normal animations for being a non-humanoid character model. And those attacks have to do so without added player input for form/appearance. Even when the form itself glitched and Nova didn't transform the character as someone earlier said, the animations for the Nova's powers did not line up with the character model being used because they were the wrong animations. So the emanation points didn't connect correctly with the character model.

 

Then you get into the "design your own alien life form appearance". The Nova and Dwarf shapeshift powers will now have to have added checks not just for whether to use the existing Nova/Dwarf model and their associated animations or the current character model and its associated animations, but will now also have to do a check through all the character's available costume slots to find the correct appearance character model and then figure out whether to use the regular Nova animations or humanoid animations. This is only slightly more complicated than previous because the player would presumably be able to simply point the game during power selection (when leveling or in the tailor) to the desired costume slot. However, now not only do you have the game tracking whether to use the correct normally assigned character model or the existing player made character model, but now you have the game tracking whether to use the regular Nova character model, the current character model, or a different character model in one of the character's available costume slots not currently being used. And in doing so, it also has to automatically correctly assign the correct animations for the form's 4 attacks in relation to if the character model is a Nova model, a male model, a female model, or a huge model to properly line up the powers' animations. Nowhere near as simple as just an alternate animation for a given power or a minimal FX option for a given power. And then you get into the MM custom pets but at the cost of player costumes debate. Because to do this, unless the devs come up with a way for the player to edit/replace the Nova/Dwarf character models without using a character costume slot, it will take a character costume slot to do so.

 

And then, you guessed it, back to the lore. Even if the Kheldians allowed for custom alien form appearances that players design for themselves, they would not be Novas or Dwarfs. So they would not retain their existing linked powers and would need new linked powers assigned to them.

 

So again, this is not just an alternate animation or minimal FX request.

[Owl Girl]

Rudra, please refer to the title of the post 😃

[ValiantBlu]

Quote

When a person asks for an alternate animation, all that is changed is what animation the power(s) use(s).

Yes that's what I asked for

 

Quote

When you click the Nova form or Dwarf form power, the power does a call to the game that removes your character model and replaces it with another character model

Yes this happens every time you /cc without any powers being tied to it

 

Quote

replaces it with another character model around which the now available powers are animated.

1) The dwarf form needs absolutely no changes, the powers are already animated for a humanoid:

 

2) And powers already exist with multiple animations, just add humanoid animations as alternates for the Nova powers with the same cast time...

Quote

while also suppressing all powers not assigned to the chosen form.

Considering this happens every time you exemp, I feel like this can be accomplished without necessarily model swapping

 

Quote

 In the case of Nova, now the associated attacks for the Nova form have to make a different call, automatically, to use humanoid animations instead of hovering squid animations, but only if the Bright Nova/Dark Nova power is assigned by the player to not replace their character model

1) the game already does this, when you cast glinting eye as a nova (the one human power allowed in this form) it performs an alternate animation

2) if for some reason this can't be done, just add the option for an alternate animation on each power, and let players choose between normal human looking Nova powers or semi wonky eye/face blasts if they choose the "minimal fx" option

 

 

Quote

Even when the form itself glitched and Nova didn't transform the character as someone earlier said, the animations for the Nova's powers did not line up with the character model being used because they were the wrong animations. So the emanation points didn't connect correctly with the character model.

They've added entire zones, modified entire enemy factions, and added entire powersets and ATs... I think a couple animation tweaks is within the realm of possibility

 

Quote

 Because to do this, unless the devs come up with a way for the player to edit/replace the Nova/Dwarf character models without using a character costume slot, it will take a character costume slot to do so.

I don't know seems like Null the Gull could add a costume slot to the list

Or maybe a Kheldian-exclusive contact could give you a tailor-like mish to complete to unlock a new costume slot (used specifically for transformations)

Or... idk, a Kheldian exclusive tailor in Pocket D who can "help you recall your previous forms" (modify costume slots A and B)

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, Owl Girl said:

Rudra, please refer to the title of the post 😃

And as I responded back on the first page, the very first response to the OP, it is not a minimal FX request. It never was.

[Rudra]

Just now, ValiantBlu said:

Quote

When you click the Nova form or Dwarf form power, the power does a call to the game that removes your character model and replaces it with another character model

Yes this happens every time you /cc without any powers being tied to it

Exactly. When you do a costume change, you are not making a minimal FX power choice. You are changing everything the character's power sets call to for animations depending on whether you use the same character model or not.

 

3 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

Quote

Even when the form itself glitched and Nova didn't transform the character as someone earlier said, the animations for the Nova's powers did not line up with the character model being used because they were the wrong animations. So the emanation points didn't connect correctly with the character model.

They've added entire zones, modified entire enemy factions, and added entire powersets and ATs... I think a couple animation tweaks is within the realm of possibility

This is not a couple animation tweaks. This is a power code change. And an extensive one at that. (Leaving out the whole lore aspect of what the Kheldians are doing and why, which is still a fundamental part of any RPG.)

 

5 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

Quote

 Because to do this, unless the devs come up with a way for the player to edit/replace the Nova/Dwarf character models without using a character costume slot, it will take a character costume slot to do so.

I don't know seems like Null the Gull could add a costume slot to the list

Or maybe a Kheldian-exclusive contact could give you a tailor-like mish to complete to unlock a new costume slot (used specifically for transformations)

Or... idk, a Kheldian exclusive tailor in Pocket D who can "help you recall your previous forms" (modify costume slots A and B)

There is a reason why player characters are limited to 10 costume slots. VEATs technically have an 11th, but it cannot be accessed except through the use of slash commands.

[Ghost]

Give it up @Rudra

Some players are determined to turn this into City of Generics.

Just let the thread die and disappear.

[ValiantBlu]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm waiting for "The forms" as response....

I’d be willing to give up 2 costume slots 🙂

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

When you click the Nova form or Dwarf form power, the power does a call to the game that removes your character model and replaces it with another character model around which the now available powers are animated, while also suppressing all powers not assigned to the chosen form. The request is not for an alternate animation or even for minimal FX, it is a request to change how the powers themselves work.

 

Set Costume "Reward_Carnival_Harlequin" (self only) every 0.7s for 0.6s (100% chance)

 

Set Costume "Kheldian_Nova_Peacebringer" (self only) every 3.0s for 2s (100% chance)

If replacing the player character model did "change how the powers themselves work", we wouldn't have temporary and prestige costumes.  Swapping the character model a Dwarf or Nova is exactly the same thing.  It's that one line that does it.

 

Also, Phantom Army calls the player character model (@CustomFX eq 'PhantomMirror') when the Mirror option is selected, so that's also viable in this context.

 

You're wrong.  Let it go.

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Set Costume "Reward_Carnival_Harlequin" (self only) every 0.7s for 0.6s (100% chance)

 

Set Costume "Kheldian_Nova_Peacebringer" (self only) every 3.0s for 2s (100% chance)

If replacing the player character model did "change how the powers themselves work", we wouldn't have temporary and prestige costumes.  Swapping the character model a Dwarf or Nova is exactly the same thing.  It's that one line that does it.

 

Also, Phantom Army calls the player character model (@CustomFX eq 'PhantomMirror') when the Mirror option is selected, so that's also viable in this context.

 

You're wrong.  Let it go.

And as your provided links show, that is a costume change, not minimal FX. (And it still ignores the game's lore.)

 

As @Ghost said though, it's time to just drop this conversation. So, I'm out.

[ThatGuyCDude]

Additionally, if you use the Changeling macros to rapid-toggle the forms on and off, every ability animates correctly (INCLUDING the Nova abilities)--there is no model animation complication that prevents a non-Nova model from calling those powers.  If you get the sticky press timing down right, you never see either form at all (not that that's a reason to refrain from further customization options).

I'd like to see the pulldown get a full list of costume options:
Nova
>Original
>Color Custom (No Tail)
>Mirror Costume 1
>Mirror Costume 2
et cetera to 6, since those are the slots that are unlocked by default.  Since a model switch would have to be involved, and since models can mimic player costumes, I'm hopeful they could pull from an existing slot instead of strictly the active slot.

With such a system, a player could 'shapeshift' into different forms or outfits based on which attack phase they're using... maybe they've got street clothes and a Kheldian style super-suit that they'd swap into for Nova, or a beast/different alien outfit to trade for Dwarf.  If it's a model swap it'd still override prestige costumes, which creates even more interesting scenarios.  And yes, it might encourage players who want to try the mechanics of the archetype without playing their character as a direct representative: I can use Arachnos Soldier to make a Family Mook, or a PPD Hardsuit officer, or a Crey Tank (and those are just off the top of my head).  All I can make with a Warshade is... a Warshade.

[ValiantBlu]

19 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

I'd like to see the pulldown get a full list of costume options:
Nova
>Original
>Color Custom (No Tail)
>Mirror Costume 1
>Mirror Costume 2

Very creative, similar to the illusion decoys, but still allowing for a custom transformation I love this

Edited August 14 by ValiantBlu

[Owl Girl]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

And as I responded back on the first page, the very first response to the OP, it is not a minimal FX request. It never was.

oh okay i think i see the confusion here: yes, it is a minimal FX request! it always was. it might entail some additional work when compared to altering the FX for Fire Blast but the OP is simply asking for a method to avoid visually transforming and definitely not asking to have Nova/Dwarf powers in human form or human powers in Dwarf/Nova form. is it physically impossible for this to be achieved? possibly yes, but probably not really. from a personal philosophical position i think that it's best if we avoid adding to or amending other people's suggestions beyond the scope of what they are actually asking for but i can understand why some others would disagree. it's certainly easier to come up with supporting arguments for or against something if we allow ourselves the liberty of putting words into other people's mouths!

this leaves only the lore issue unresolved. and while i can appreciate that some people would prefer to exercise control over other people's characters in order to reinforce their own vision for how the game "should be" (i myself often wish i could force people to refer to ouroboros as Owlboros!), i just don't think it's a good idea at the End of the day. it's not really my place to Judge the way that others want to interface with the lore, and my own subjective experience as a hypothetical Lore Appreciator really shouldn't be dictated by whether or not other players religiously adhere to it.

You often have very good Judgment and argumentation from what i have seen but with respect, i think the OP's suggestion is perfectly reasonable presuming it's possible to do without somehow destroying the way the powers actually function in play.

[biostem]

40 minutes ago, Owl Girl said:

is it physically impossible for this to be achieved?

I could be wrong, but for nova form, at least, the emanation points for some of the powers are all switched around, which would mean that you couldn't do a simple character model replacement.  Dwarf should be a lot easier since that form, at least, is humanoid.  I'm not necessarily against the idea, mind you, but it'd entail more work than might be readily apparent...