Different IO types

[DrRocket]

Maybe one of these days when the devs release another IO series, some different effect IOs can be added

 

For example:

 

We can extend how far an AOE can go, but we can't increase the actual radius of the AOE

We can extend the duration of a hold but not increase the magnitude strength of the hold (there is proc that does this, but its not the point)

We can extend how long or how far we can use a Debuff, but we can't increase the magnitude of the Debuff

We can have a power recharge quicker, how about lasting longer?

How about giving a power that affects a single target, have an IO that would enhance it with an AOE effect; that would have rather interesting effects and add tremendous fun and abilities to the game

 

Any thoughts, as always make this a learning opportunity for me

 

Thank you

[Rudra]

Okay, you really need to clarify what you are asking for.

 

IOs that can extend how far an AoE can go? Slot any with a range component. However, if you are asking for an IO that expands the AoE radius? Probably never going to happen. Those radii and max number of targets the AoE powers can affect is part of their balance consideration.

 

IOs that can extend the duration of a hold but not increase its magnitude? Any hold enhancement. IOs that can simply increase the magnitude of said holds? Slot the proc. It is a proc because of how the game works mechanically.

 

IOs that extend the duration of a debuff? Slot any appropriate IO for that debuff. IOs that make those debuffs stronger? What part of the debuffs exactly are you looking to make stronger?

 

IOs that make powers last longer? We already have those for the mezzes and debuffs. What exactly are you asking for?

 

IOs that turn ST attacks into AoEs? Never going to happen. That takes the powers' balance considerations and throws them out the window.

[Uun]

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

We can extend the duration of a hold but not increase the magnitude strength of the hold (there is proc that does this, but its not the point)

All mezz enhancements (hold, stun, fear, immobilize, confuse, sleep) currently work this way.

 

15 hours ago, DrRocket said:

We can extend how long or how far we can use a Debuff, but we can't increase the magnitude of the Debuff

Debuff enhancements (-def, -tohit, slow) work the opposite way - they increase the magnitude of the debuff. The duration of the debuff can't be enhanced. Could they create a new enhancement that increases duration? I suppose so, but I'm not sure there's enough demand for it since many debuffs are toggles. 

[DrRocket]

22 hours ago, Rudra said:

Okay, you really need to clarify what you are asking for.

 

IOs that can extend how far an AoE can go? Slot any with a range component. However, if you are asking for an IO that expands the AoE radius? Probably never going to happen. Those radii and max number of targets the AoE powers can affect is part of their balance consideration.

 

IOs that can extend the duration of a hold but not increase its magnitude? Any hold enhancement. IOs that can simply increase the magnitude of said holds? Slot the proc. It is a proc because of how the game works mechanically.

 

IOs that extend the duration of a debuff? Slot any appropriate IO for that debuff. IOs that make those debuffs stronger? What part of the debuffs exactly are you looking to make stronger?

 

IOs that make powers last longer? We already have those for the mezzes and debuffs. What exactly are you asking for?

 

IOs that turn ST attacks into AoEs? Never going to happen. That takes the powers' balance considerations and throws them out the window.

I was l looking for the radius of the AOE to be larger, the debuff to be greater say from 5% to 10%, etc

[DrRocket]

8 hours ago, Uun said:

All mezz enhancements (hold, stun, fear, immobilize, confuse, sleep) currently work this way.

 

Debuff enhancements (-def, -tohit, slow) work the opposite way - they increase the magnitude of the debuff. The duration of the debuff can't be enhanced. Could they create a new enhancement that increases duration? I suppose so, but I'm not sure there's enough demand for it since many debuffs are toggles. 

Instead of having a mez with a say a strength of 1, use IOs to increase it potency to say 2 or 3, was the intent

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, DrRocket said:

I was l looking for the radius of the AOE to be larger,

 

23 hours ago, Rudra said:

However, if you are asking for an IO that expands the AoE radius? Probably never going to happen. Those radii and max number of targets the AoE powers can affect is part of their balance consideration.

 

 

1 hour ago, DrRocket said:

the debuff to be greater say from 5% to 10%, etc

Then slot the appropriate enhancement for it. They already exist.

[biostem]

On 9/10/2024 at 6:05 PM, DrRocket said:

Any thoughts, as always make this a learning opportunity for me

The problem, IIRC, is how the game was originally implemented - some power attributes were hard-coded and others were inserted as variables, (or at least were able to be affected by external sources).  Things like the actual radius of an AoE or the magnitude of mez effects cannot be so easily buffed - which is why every dominator control power has to have extra coding inserted to apply the extra magnitude only while domination is active... 

Edited September 11 by biostem

[JasperStone]

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

 

 

Then slot the appropriate enhancement for it. They already exist.

Yes ...

But I thought a Range IO would only increase the range you can cast it, not the size of the Area Cast?

[Trickshooter]

On 9/10/2024 at 6:05 PM, DrRocket said:

We can extend how far an AOE can go, but we can't increase the actual radius of the AOE

 

It's possible to have enhancements that do this (in fact, there is already an enhancement color for Radius in the game files), but the radius of AoE powers is typically part of the balancing of a power, so it would be a can of worms to introduce this as an enhancement. We'd probably have to have a global nerf to the radius of all AoEs to account for the ability to enhance them if this were done.

 

On 9/10/2024 at 6:05 PM, DrRocket said:

We can extend the duration of a hold but not increase the magnitude strength of the hold

 

Also possible, but complicated. The Control Hybrid powers that add Mag are an example of how it could work, but there are limitations. Namely that extra Mag that is added would likely not be boosted by enhancements that improve duration. Also, probably some balance issues with AoE control powers suddenly being able to always affect bosses.

 

On 9/10/2024 at 6:05 PM, DrRocket said:

We can extend how long or how far we can use a Debuff, but we can't increase the magnitude of the Debuff

 

We actually can do that, just not for ALL debuffs. Both Defense Debuff and ToHit Debuff enhancements already increase the debuff value.

 

I think what you're asking for are Damage Debuff and Damage Resistance Debuff enhancements, but unfortunately those are never going to happen for complicated reasons. It's not an issue of balance, but an issue with how the game was designed.

 

On 9/10/2024 at 6:05 PM, DrRocket said:

We can have a power recharge quicker, how about lasting longer?

 

This isn't impossible, but again kind of complicated and TONS of manual work. It's possible to make an individual effect's duration vary with an expression that could be affected by an enhancement. However, it would have to be manually added to every individual effect in a power, and then to every power players have access to. And similar to possible Radius Enhancements, we'd probably get a global nerf to duration for all powers to account for the ability to enhance them.

 

On 9/10/2024 at 6:05 PM, DrRocket said:

How about giving a power that affects a single target, have an IO that would enhance it with an AOE effect

 

This is both easy and not so easy to accomplish. Easy in the sense that it's already possible to create an IO that adds an AoE effect to a power. But not so easy in the sense that it would not work like how you want, I'm assuming. It would not be able to turn Shout, for example, in to an AoE that does it's full damage and secondary effects to all enemies in an AoE; it would have to be a totally separate effect that would not benefit from damage enhancements in the power, may not even do the same damage type or have any secondary effects, would likely have to be a proc for balance reasons and you would definitely not be able to slot more than one.

Edited September 12 by Trickshooter

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Yes ...

But I thought a Range IO would only increase the range you can cast it, not the size of the Area Cast?

Please don't link my response to one part of something I am addressing to my response to something else I am addressing. What you are quoting is only in reference to the enhanced debuffs, not the AoE. The AoE question is addressed by my quoting myself to show @DrRocket that his/her/their quote of me asking to improve AoE radius was addressed in that quote.

[JasperStone]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Please don't link my response to one part of something I am addressing to my response to something else I am addressing. What you are quoting is only in reference to the enhanced debuffs, not the AoE. The AoE question is addressed by my quoting myself to show @DrRocket that his/her/their quote of me asking to improve AoE radius was addressed in that quote.

Sure thing.....

 

I see you list three quotes.

 

Your first quote, paired with your statement, caused my question.

 

Please have more clarity when posting multiple quotes and a single statement in the future. 

 I read a tremendous amount of research papers.

Were I to see this in paper, the ONLY assumption would be that your single statement covers BOTH quotes.

[Enamel_32]

For the AoE radius proposal specifically, that's at least doable. Some of the older players might recall there used to be cone width enhancements, so there's precedent for this style of modifier as well.

 

On 9/12/2024 at 9:02 AM, Trickshooter said:

We'd probably have to have a global nerf to the radius of all AoEs to account for the ability to enhance them if this were done.

Agreed that balancing that would be... Very Difficult. If you don't enhance the stat very much, it's not going to be worth slotting. If you do too much it becomes easy to always hit the target cap for AoE powers. There is a cap, which perhaps helps things from getting out of hand, but a change like this requires significant consideration.

Edited September 13 by Enamel_32

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Enamel_32 said:

For the AoE radius proposal specifically, that's at least doable. Some of the older players might recall there used to be cone width enhancements, so there's precedent for this style of modifier as well.

If I am remembering correctly, those enhanced the arc of the cones, not the radius. Like you said, the cone's width, not reach. So there still isn't precedent for what the OP is asking for.

[Enamel_32]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If I am remembering correctly, those enhanced the arc of the cones, not the radius. Like you said, the cone's width, not reach. So there still isn't precedent for what the OP is asking for.

 

You are indeed correct. However I don't think it's unreasonable to find the middle ground between the OP and the old enhancement type. We can look at them both as being ways of increasing a power's area of effect, which is what a player would ultimately care about. Honestly, I think enhancing a power's area of effect directly might be the level of scaling that makes sense for a newly proposed enhancement type like this. If you increased the radius of Fire Ball by 50% for example, you get 337% more volume.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

If I am remembering correctly, those enhanced the arc of the cones, not the radius. Like you said, the cone's width, not reach. So there still isn't precedent for what the OP is asking for.

No, it was the opposite. Cone enhancements increased the cone's radius, not its arc. Range enhancements now have the same effect. See patch note from I5 (8/31/2005) below.

• Cone Enhancements removed from the game. Increased Range Enhancements now have the same effect on Cone powers.
  • The difference between Cone enhancement and Range enhancement was confusing. Now one Enhancement works to increase the reach of all powers.

There has never been an enhancement that increased the arc of a cone or the radius of an AoE. The only thing that does this is Gauntlet (tanker inherent).

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Uun said:

No, it was the opposite. Cone enhancements increased the cone's radius, not its arc. Range enhancements now have the same effect. See patch note from I5 (8/31/2005) below.

• Cone Enhancements removed from the game. Increased Range Enhancements now have the same effect on Cone powers.
  • The difference between Cone enhancement and Range enhancement was confusing. Now one Enhancement works to increase the reach of all powers.

There has never been an enhancement that increased the arc of a cone or the radius of an AoE. The only thing that does this is Gauntlet (tanker inherent).

I sit corrected. Thanks.

[DrRocket]

On 9/12/2024 at 9:02 AM, Trickshooter said:

 

It's possible to have enhancements that do this (in fact, there is already an enhancement color for Radius in the game files), but the radius of AoE powers is typically part of the balancing of a power, so it would be a can of worms to introduce this as an enhancement. We'd probably have to have a global nerf to the radius of all AoEs to account for the ability to enhance them if this were done.

 

 

Also possible, but complicated. The Control Hybrid powers that add Mag are an example of how it could work, but there are limitations. Namely that extra Mag that is added would likely not be boosted by enhancements that improve duration. Also, probably some balance issues with AoE control powers suddenly being able to always affect bosses.

 

 

We actually can do that, just not for ALL debuffs. Both Defense Debuff and ToHit Debuff enhancements already increase the debuff value.

 

I think what you're asking for are Damage Debuff and Damage Resistance Debuff enhancements, but unfortunately those are never going to happen for complicated reasons. It's not an issue of balance, but an issue with how the game was designed.

 

 

This isn't impossible, but again kind of complicated and TONS of manual work. It's possible to make an individual effect's duration vary with an expression that could be affected by an enhancement. However, it would have to be manually added to every individual effect in a power, and then to every power players have access to. And similar to possible Radius Enhancements, we'd probably get a global nerf to duration for all powers to account for the ability to enhance them.

 

 

This is both easy and not so easy to accomplish. Easy in the sense that it's already possible to create an IO that adds an AoE effect to a power. But not so easy in the sense that it would not work like how you want, I'm assuming. It would not be able to turn Shout, for example, in to an AoE that does it's full damage and secondary effects to all enemies in an AoE; it would have to be a totally separate effect that would not benefit from damage enhancements in the power, may not even do the same damage type or have any secondary effects, would likely have to be a proc for balance reasons and you would definitely not be able to slot more than one.

Thank you for awesome reply

[srmalloy]

On 9/12/2024 at 4:09 AM, JasperStone said:

But I thought a Range IO would only increase the range you can cast it, not the size of the Area Cast?

With one exception. There used to be a Cone Range enhancement; this was taken out and folded into the Range enhancements, so that if you slot Range into a cone attack, it increases the depth of the cone, allowing you to hit targets further away. Because it doesn't change the cone angle, this increases the beaten zone for the cone attack, although the maximum number of targets doesn't change. Boost Range will do this to cone attacks like Full Auto and Flamethrower, allowing an Assault Rifle character to really reach out and touch someone.

[JasperStone]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

With one exception. There used to be a Cone Range enhancement; this was taken out and folded into the Range enhancements, so that if you slot Range into a cone attack, it increases the depth of the cone, allowing you to hit targets further away. Because it doesn't change the cone angle, this increases the beaten zone for the cone attack, although the maximum number of targets doesn't change. Boost Range will do this to cone attacks like Full Auto and Flamethrower, allowing an Assault Rifle character to really reach out and touch someone.

Beautiful answer. Thank you