Are there any powersets which are better on Brute than on other AT's ?

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

If you gave them huge amounts of survivability such that, like Tankers, they could start to devote a ton of build space to procs, they might surpass Scrappers and then we'd have two ATs again -- Tankers and Brutes.

 

As opposed to having Scrapper and Tankers, eh? It is quite literally suboptimal to bring Brutes to a group.

 

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

If you gave them huge amounts of survivability such that, like Tankers, they could start to devote a ton of build space to procs, they might surpass Scrappers and then we'd have two ATs again -- Tankers and Brutes.  That's not preferable to the current situation of two valid ATs: Tankers and Scrappers.

 

Everything after the word "If" above is you, given I quite literally wrote (and you quoted), "The simple solution would be to give Brutes a boost in their survivability. To Tanker levels? No." Everything that follows is you knockdown your own creation and nothing I put forth.

 

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

This is crazy.  The Tanker buff was just an overcorrection.  Nobody set out to rub their hands together and try to invalidate Brutes, they just misunderstood how powerful the buff was.

 

You forget, Brute damage caps were nerfed. So Brutes brought down in damage and Tankers buffed. Not just Tankers boosted and nothing else occurred.

 

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

Seems like a lot of work to go and do that to a very uncertain reward and hard to really explore the playtesting.

 

You're right. Let's do what has been happening...NOTHING.

 

Well, glad we solved that. "We'd love to do something but nothing can be done, not even fix the utterly craptastic ATO Brutes have" because "It might go too far." 🙄

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

With respect, touch grass.

 

I am going to offer true respect and say nothing to this.

[Erratic1]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

 

Here you go @CYPHERPUNK, plenty of people who do not play Brutes, ("I just prefer other ATs, honestly.") and only show up in this thread but otherwise do not discuss Brutes, building them, or playing them, asserting that Brutes are fine. This is why Brutes are as they are and will remain as they are.

 

Good luck with your Brutes. I've made my final one. To the extent I play CoH, for melee I do Tankers and Scrapper. I would advise you to do the same.

[aethereal]

5 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

As opposed to having Scrapper and Tankers, eh? It is quite literally suboptimal to bring Brutes to a group.

 

You're so emotional about this topic that you don't read what people say, and you're like, "Oh my god I'm going to shock you by saying this: Brutes are suboptimal!"

 

I said right from the start that Brutes are invalidated by Scrappers and Tankers.  Yes, they're quite literally suboptimal.  You aren't arguing with anyone.  But despite your deeply emotional beliefs, no, it's not in fact better to have Brutes invalidate another class than it is for another class to invalidate Brutes.  If we can't figure out a way for all three of Brutes, Scrappers, and Tankers to be valid at the same time, there's no point in fixing Brutes.  No, it's not about turns or retribution or penance.

 

5 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Everything after the word "If" above is you, given I quite literally wrote (and you quoted), "The simple solution would be to give Brutes a boost in their survivability. To Tanker levels? No." Everything that follows is you knockdown your own creation and nothing I put forth.

 

I don't think you read what I wrote, which was about Brutes invalidating Scrappers, not Tankers.

 

Just to be clear, though: the likely result of slightly raising the defensive values of Brutes is "nothing."  They probably remain just as invalidated as ever: Tankers continue to outclass them in clear-speed (because they continue to have better AoE and largely similar ST), and Scrappers continue to outclass them in DPS both AoE and ST, and Scrappers are durable enough that it doesn't matter if Brutes are a little more durable than Scrappers.  Again, remember that back before the Tanker buffs, Tanks were largely invalidated by Brutes despite having way better defensive scores.

 

But the build environment is complex, and it's hard to predict exactly when builders will be able to leverage additional baseline durability into higher proc performance that would allow Brutes to out-damage Scrappers.  There's no real way for Brutes to outclass Tankers this way: the extra target caps are too potent.  But maybe at some point they do outclass Scrappers.

 

5 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

You're right. Let's do what has been happening...NOTHING.

 

Well, glad we solved that. "We'd love to do something but nothing can be done, not even fix the utterly craptastic ATO Brutes have" because "It might go too far." 🙄

 

Homecoming's whole balance doctrine is not based in "let's make a speculative change, see what happens, and tweak."  This is nothing particularly to do with Brutes.  They just don't say, "Well, this current status quo is bad and we don't quite know what to do, so let's make a change for the sake of a change and see how the environment responds."

 

Like, look at regen.  Obviously has been in a bad way forever.  Are they making little changes again and again?  Nope.  Or Kinetic Melee.  Or Broadsword.  Energy Blast.  Archery.

 

They make big changes that they think will conclusively solve a problem with a strong theory for what the new status quo will be.

 

Is that a good doctrine of balance change?  Eh.  I'm not personally in love with it.  But it's not insane: they clearly think that constant change is frustrating for players and perhaps strains their very limited development resources.  Whether they're right or wrong, it's got nothing to do with Brutes.

[Maelwys]

10 hours ago, aethereal said:

Given that we are in a status quo in which we have two of three of Brutes/Tankers/Scrappers valid, it doesn't make sense to go and try to make a change to switch which two are valid.

 

This.

 

IMO when you're soloing there's not a huge amount of difference, Brutes still underperform offensively but their higher mitigation caps can still be relevant and it's basically just the ATOs that are to blame for the Scrapper dominance, not the rest of the AT.

 

 

However on teams...

 

Tankers are valid because they're the AoE damage Melee AT. And they can tank harder stuff with minimal support.

 

Scrappers are valid because they're the Single Target damage Melee AT. And they can still tank stuff, although choosing one of the secondary sets that has a Taunt Aura definitely helps.

 

Stalkers can sometimes be more useful than a Scrapper depending on the team's goal and composition. They approach Scrapper levels of Single Target damage (especially if there isn't a Kin on the team since they can lean more into build up autorecharges) and they get stealth and some limited aggro control. They do just fine at [Elite] boss-killing but they can't really tank and their AoE damage is typically worse than a Scrapper.

 

Brutes are currently what you pick if you can't get one of the others, or if you like the player and have a "pity spot" free.

 

Want aggro control and AoE damage? Tanker.

Want Single Target damage and aggro control? Scrapper.

Want only Single Target damage and Stealth and/or don't have a Kin? Stalker.

Want aggro control and lesser Single Target damage plus X? Brute.

 

Realistically something needs to change so that we can find a decent value for X.

 

Personally I still like the idea of making Fury and/or the Brute ATOs provide minor AoE effects - buffs to teammates or debuffs to enemies. But whatever it is it'll be a balancing act so as not to invalidate either Scrappers or Tankers.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

You're so emotional about this topic that you don't read what people say, and you're like, "Oh my god I'm going to shock you by saying this: Brutes are suboptimal!"

 

You don't know me, so don't presume you know my emotional state. 

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

I said right from the start that Brutes are invalidated by Scrappers and Tankers.  Yes, they're quite literally suboptimal.

 

And you are fine with them being suboptimal. Not much more needs to be said.