Are there any powersets which are better on Brute than on other AT's ?

[Without_Pause]

There are absolutely maps, see caves, which make it harder for larger mobs to be generated. I've seen all sorts of mobs where it hardly felt like it was actually x8. Tankers will be slower to take down a boss, see pylon times. Even if the trash mobs are quicker to take down, I feel the longer time to take down a boss even if the overall time is faster. Hell, I've carried bosses to the next mob so I can continue to work on them while taking on additional targets.

 

Tankers are absolutely easier to make so they can't be killed and run on a higher diff. I have a build check arc, and so far not only will my Shield/fire do it at the intended diff setting, it will cakewalk it. But here's the thing. I can make a Brute which is more than durable enough for a high 90% of the content, and I just find being the can't be killed AoE death machine isn't as fun for me as it is for others. If you want to talk about soloing where being closer to doing any map at +4/x8 is a benefit then I get it even if soloing at the setting I don't deem being fun. In terms of teams? That durability is vastly wasted and practically any Blaster is going to make a Tankers bigger AoEs irrelevant. If being the can't be killed AoE death machine is your jam. then great. It's just not even remotely needed. I made a Ice/stone Brute who soloed Council at +4/x8 before even being 50, and Ice Patch wasn't even needed.

We can talk all about numbers about what is the 'best.' The best for me is Brutes as I actually feel like I need to be engaged in what I'm doing. I feel like I actually have to look at my health bar on a Brute. 😀

[Erratic1]

34 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

There are absolutely maps, see caves, which make it harder for larger mobs to be generated. I've seen all sorts of mobs where it hardly felt like it was actually x8. Tankers will be slower to take down a boss, see pylon times. Even if the trash mobs are quicker to take down, I feel the longer time to take down a boss even if the overall time is faster. Hell, I've carried bosses to the next mob so I can continue to work on them while taking on additional targets.

 

Bosses aren't pylons. Elite bosses, which are not common, might at times approximate one (e.g. Protean*). Caves tend to have big rooms containing multiple spawns. So advantage Tanker there where in the hallways, with constrained spawn sizes it's more breakeven. But advantage + breakeven = advantage. And most missions are not caves in any event.

 

44 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Tankers are absolutely easier to make so they can't be killed and run on a higher diff. I have a build check arc, and so far not only will my Shield/fire do it at the intended diff setting, it will cakewalk it. But here's the thing. I can make a Brute which is more than durable enough for a high 90% of the content, and I just find being the can't be killed AoE death machine isn't as fun for me as it is for others.

 

You're talking an IO'd, endgame Brute. Talk to me about levels 20-49 and SOs. And as goes endgame, against the big, end of trial/TF, you want a Tanker. If the survivability of Tankers is overkill, then you have no objections to Brutes getting some of that...say half the difference now between Brute and Tanker values? Or maybe Tankers not getting any higher values and having to reach cap like Brutes do, through set bonuses and not skipping Toughness?

 

Back on topic, I have yet to see anything substantiating Claws/Fire performance being better on a Brute versus a Tanker. The entire calling card of Fiery Aura is Burn, which favors Tankers. 

 

*I play every character I make against Protean. I can assure you the Tankers have an easier time than the Brutes.

[Without_Pause]

What are SOs? Seriously, I don't slot them. Again, I soloed the Brute at +4/x8 before hitting 50, so no Incarnates either. I literally have to actively find maps which gives that build issues. Also, I actively said Tankers will have an easier time. My point is what is more fun. You know, the point of gaming.

[Erratic1]

5 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

What are SOs? Seriously, I don't slot them.

 

I don't slot SO, but rather crafted IOs, but that is neither here nor there to the point of perhaps your view being distorted as I actually exam people when I team and far fewer are Set IO'd to the gills than are.

[Maelwys]

19 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Back on topic, I have yet to see anything substantiating Claws/Fire performance being better on a Brute versus a Tanker. The entire calling card of Fiery Aura is Burn, which favors Tankers. 

 

Question: How does Burn favor Tankers these days whenever neither Gauntlet's Target Cap nor AoE radius buffs apply to it, but Fury Buffs do?

 

(Note the "Max Targets Hit" field being hardcoded to 5; and the "Strengths Disallowed: Radius" red exclamation mark flag at the top left in its CODv2 entry. However the Pseudopet entity summoned has the caster's boosts copied to it and uses the caster's modifiers, so Damage boosts from Fury apply to both the frontloaded damage spike and at least some of the DOT ticks)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[EDIT] - I had a spare 20mins this morning so here's a quick example of it in action:
 

Setup = a Lv50 Brute versus an even-level RWZ Pylon.

Pylons have 20% Resistance to everything; so the expected base damage of a Brute's Burn is:
60.0591*0.8 = 48.04728 (for the initial hit of Burn)
3.3366*0.8 = 2.66928 (for the ticks after Fury Buffs expire)
 

Trial #1 - [No damage buffs/slotting]

48.04 (initial hit with no prior Fury)
3.19 (tick damage, with Fury from Burn Activation)
2.66 (tick damage, without Fury)

Trial #2 - [3x level 50 Dam IOs: +99.08 damage]

95.64 (initial hit with no prior Fury)
5.84 (tick damage, with Fury from Burn Activation)
5.30 (tick damage, without Fury)
 

Trial #3 - [3x level 50 Dam IOs plus a Full Fury Bar and half a tray of Red Insps]

336.52 (initial hit with Full Fury)
18.68 (tick damage, with Full Fury)
18.65 (tick damage, without Fury)

Note in particular the numbers whenever both the Brute themselves and the Burn Pseudopet are at their respective damage caps:
Initial hit damage: 336.52/48.04728 = 7.00393
Tick damage: 18.68/2.66 = 7.02255
...so both are dealing almost exactly 700% of Base damage

Therefore (as expected from the "Entity has creator's modifiers" Tag present on the Burn Pseudopet in CoDv2) currently all of Burn's damage is demonstrably using the 700% Brute Damage cap, as opposed to the regular 400% Pseudopet damage cap.
Damage buffs present on the caster are also being copied across correctly to the pseudopet; although any damage buffs granted to it via Fury will only persist for a few seconds before their duration expires; resulting in the later Burn ticks dealing a smidge lower damage.

Whilst Tanker base numbers are a good bit higher, Brutes will start to pull ahead at ~27 Fury (Initial Hit) and at ~38 Fury (average damage including all ticks)

 

 

Edited October 3 by Maelwys

[Erratic1]

Quote

Question: How does Burn favor Tankers these days whenever neither Gauntlet's Target Cap nor AoE radius buffs apply to it, but Fury Buffs do?

 

I admit, I had been considering Burn's area being boosted but had not checked that point.

 

Were you using Follow Up to boost damage on both or looking at Burn in complete isolation? If I am following your numbers correctly, that would bring the final set of numbers to roughly 171 for the Tanker initial hit, vs 168 for the Brute, 9.55 ticks for the Tanker and 10.94/7.54 for the Brute. Totals would be 295.15 for the Tanker, 279.22 for the Brute.

 

Mind, I am not saying the Tanker is better off but that the Fury break even point is pushed higher (you have established pretty solidly Burn working roughly evenly). Moreso if Follow Up is stacked twice.

 

And keep in mind Claws was found to favor Tankers. So overall it still looks to me Claws/Fire favors Tankers, just not so much as I thought.

 

 

Edited October 3 by Erratic1

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Were you using Follow Up to boost damage on both or looking at Burn in complete isolation?

Complete Isolation. 
(The toon in question is a Battleaxe/FA Brute rather than a Claws/FA) 😁

100% agree that applying an identical flat damage buff to both ATs (regardless of whether it's from Follow Up or Rage or whatever) would favour Tankers... and even without it, as soon as you take any AoE power that does get affected by Gauntlet's Target Cap and Radius Increases then Tankers will start pulling ahead anyway. (Even with Fury buffing DoT damage; last I checked about the only relevant powerset that ends up performing a bit better on a Brute than on a Tanker is Dual Blades... the likes of Savage, Fire and Spines just gain so much more from Gauntlet...)
That said, I still rate Fiery Aura (because Burn isn't affected by Gauntlet but is by Fury) and Stone Armor (because Brimstone Damage Procs get affected by Fury too) as substantially better performing on Brutes than the average player might expect.
 

Edited October 3 by Maelwys

[Without_Pause]

16 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I don't slot SO, but rather crafted IOs, but that is neither here nor there to the point of perhaps your view being distorted as I actually exam people when I team and far fewer are Set IO'd to the gills than are.

I don't know how my view is distorted as any build I do is compared using IOs*. My standards for builds are the same. How is the build leveling? How is it at 50? How is it once T4ed? While modifications need to be made to my sig, my one Tanker at 50 still wouldn't make the list. It is still rather high though and should stay there. Duo boxing my Claws/ea Scrapper at +3/x8 going through RWZ story arcs last night was more fun than the entire time I have played my freshly Level 50 Tanker, and yes, I vastly soloed the Tanker without 2x XP boosters. The Scrapper's teammate is a Ice/Stone Brute who I have switched over to in specific situations or to simply change things up.  In case it works, I can even have the Brute on follow for the free damage aura. That was so not the case last night. The #1 issue last night was learning about the mob type and what they did. Once I got that figured out, my Scrapper was fine. Not a Brute. A Scrapper at +3/x8 against genuinely difficult mobs and not radio fodder. If I had my Claws/ea Brute doing the same content +4/x8 would absolutely be on the table. I'm pretty sure my Scrapper could have done it. Also, the final mob was all of 5 targets. The one before it with the named boss wasn't much bigger. So again, being the can't be killed thing AoE death machine isn't as an amazing selling point for me.

 

I don't build check other people. Someone struggling in a mission is enough.

 

As pointed out, I prefer Claws on a Scrapper. That still doesn't change the fact that for me Claws is still the most fun melee set in the game. Even if a Tanker gets bigger AoEs, Lethal damage with Tanker values is going to be a snooze fest against certain mobs. It's honestly hard to find sets which are distinctly better on one AT versus the other. I will say Ice is great on a Brute.

 

* If the idea is that the game is balanced around SOs, that died the second the new difficulty setting got implemented.

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

As pointed out, I prefer Claws on a Scrapper. That still doesn't change the fact that for me Claws is still the most fun melee set in the game. Even if a Tanker gets bigger AoEs, Lethal damage with Tanker values is going to be a snooze fest against certain mobs. It's honestly hard to find sets which are distinctly better on one AT versus the other. I will say Ice is great on a Brute.

 

What a person finds fun is what THEY should be doing, but it is not a way to objectively view things and make an comparison of performance across ATs. I've had fun on objectively underpowered combinations, but that fun does not change the actual underpowered nature of the combo.

[TheMoncrief]

I don't think this is a popular assertion, but I like Super Strength better on a Brute than a Tanker.

 

Why?

1. Foot Stomp is not buffed by Gauntlet, so Brutes have the same AoE size and target cap as Tankers.

2. The lower Brute damage scale and high damage buff from Fury makes Rage less mandatory on Brutes, and I don't like dealing with the Rage crash.

3. Brutes deal superior single target damage with all the other attacks than Tankers, because that's what Brutes do.

 

So higher damage across the board, and a lesser sacrifice to get the less-annoying play style from the set. To me, that's a win for Brutes. It might be a contest if Foot Stomp were not excluded from the Gauntlet buff, though.

[Icono04]

Just popping in to say Thanks! to everyone who has pitched in with information in this thread. You guys have given me a lot to think on, and I really appreciate it; planning a new character is sometimes as much fun as actually making that char.

Hopefully others can benefit from reading this thread as well.

[Story Archer]

For fun AND effectiveness without needing a specialized set of skills to play, I'd suggest Staff/Electric. My Crimson Skye is one of the most fun characters that I've played.

 

As a Res-based secondary, it maximizes what a Brute is good at in that regard and grants you a damage aura to boot. Just as importantly, it keeps your Endurance topped off which you want when you're go-go-go, trying to maximize Fury. Meanwhile, Staff adds a nice defensive buff in addition to multiple cool-looking AoE attacks.

 

Besides, whipping around a staff, dealing all that AoE and crackling with red lightning is just too cool.

[Maelwys]

Staff has three AoEs (Guarded Spin, Innocuous Strikes, Eye of the Storm) all of which get affected by both the radius and the target cap increases from Gauntlet, so I'd be hard pressed to consider it better on a Brute. Elec Armor is definitely a decent resistance-based powerset though and it doesn't lose a huge amount from having an 8ft rather than a 12ft damage aura.

[RCU7115]

On 10/1/2024 at 2:19 AM, Snarky said:

please stop pointing out brutes are not so bad off.

 

you know they are itching to nerf hammer the AT for the 7th? time.....

You know they'll get back to nerfing the brutes but the have more important nerfing to do Regeneration first. Priorities.

[TheMoncrief]

10 hours ago, RCU7115 said:

You know they'll get back to nerfing the brutes but the have more important nerfing to do Regeneration first. Priorities.

I mean, there is a reason Brutes have access to Regeneration. Makes it easier to target the nerfs.

[RCU7115]

15 hours ago, TheMoncrief said:

I mean, there is a reason Brutes have access to Regeneration. Makes it easier to target the nerfs.

Ooohh double Whammie

[Greyhame]

On 9/30/2024 at 5:32 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

• Regen is absolutely better on a Brute than a Scrapper. A Brute has higher HP cap than a Scrapper. So it's Regen ticks are for substantially more. You also get a taunt aura (sadly it's linked to your mez protection, so it can have fun effects if you're trying to stealth through a mission).

 

A hopefully helpful callout - the 'only affect self' power is free or super cheap from S.T.A.R.T. vendors, and will allow you to keep aura powers toggled on while stealthed without alerting enemies. 

Edited November 13 by Greyhame

[H3LLP0P]

On 9/24/2024 at 3:21 AM, Maelwys said:

IMO since Fury has a big effect on Brimstone Procs; Stone Armor (non Granite) is a major contender for your secondary.
And since it also buffs DoT damage; Fiery Aura isn't bad either.

Sorry, but why does Fury affect Brimstone Procs. Fury is damage only, right? Not ToHit?
 

 

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, H3LLP0P said:

 

On 9/24/2024 at 11:21 AM, Maelwys said:

IMO since Fury has a big effect on Brimstone Procs; Stone Armor (non Granite) is a major contender for your secondary.
And since it also buffs DoT damage; Fiery Aura isn't bad either.

Sorry, but why does Fury affect Brimstone Procs. Fury is damage only, right? Not ToHit?

Brimstone Armor grants you a passive ability which has an 80% chance to add extra fire damage to each of your attacks.
This extra damage is unaffected by most damage buffs... but it IS affected by Fury.

(compare the Tanker version with the Brute version and note the extra "* (0.01 * source>kRage + 1)" bit of the formula!)