Sooo, Labyrinth, huh?

[Nightmarer]

Mmmkay, yesterday I joined my 1st Labyrinth. It was on Excelsior and saw the announcement "Broadcast when in zone" so I went to Midnighter Club and followed some people who were also going that way.

 

Then, I arrive to some room that was empty and no clue what to do. Finally, I see a temp power for teleporting to team, so I use it and get in the middle of... some fight I guess. I got one shot (or close enough) so I craft a wakie and by the time I revive, I am alone with no clue where to go so I start using doors randomly until I read in League chat that apparently the thing is finished and everyone is "wooo" and gj" and shit.

 

I kept wandering a little more until i got tp'd again to the league who, apparently were killing some guys who appeared periodically and were saying something about tagging and recalling.

 

I thanked for the invite after a while killing some foes that showed up apparently randomly and left without even knowing what the hell happened there.

 

Sooo, my question is, is that it? there must be more to the Labyrinth and Minotaur and all that, right?

[Snarky]

46 minutes ago, Nightmarer said:

Mmmkay, yesterday I joined my 1st Labyrinth. It was on Excelsior and saw the announcement "Broadcast when in zone" so I went to Midnighter Club and followed some people who were also going that way.

 

Then, I arrive to some room that was empty and no clue what to do. Finally, I see a temp power for teleporting to team, so I use it and get in the middle of... some fight I guess. I got one shot (or close enough) so I craft a wakie and by the time I revive, I am alone with no clue where to go so I start using doors randomly until I read in League chat that apparently the thing is finished and everyone is "wooo" and gj" and shit.

 

I kept wandering a little more until i got tp'd again to the league who, apparently were killing some guys who appeared periodically and were saying something about tagging and recalling.

 

I thanked for the invite after a while killing some foes that showed up apparently randomly and left without even knowing what the hell happened there.

 

Sooo, my question is, is that it? there must be more to the Labyrinth and Minotaur and all that, right?

It is a deep pool with a lot of wading area.  There are badges and accomplishments in the "zone"  There are great rewards to be farmed.  There is a LOT of confusion (designed that way) because it is a "maze" and is not intuitive.

 

I know almost nothing about it other than what I just said.

 

I join a league, usually Goddess' on Excelsior.  I TP to a non Tank (you TP to a Tank or Brute, you die I have learned) I kill the things that boost league power.  We kill Minotaur.  Sometimes i get location badges.  Once we fought another thing that gave great rewards.  There are badges for killing X of Y in zone.

 

 

[caradoc1979]

This guide pretty much spells out everything

[Laucianna]

2 hours ago, Nightmarer said:

Mmmkay, yesterday I joined my 1st Labyrinth. It was on Excelsior and saw the announcement "Broadcast when in zone" so I went to Midnighter Club and followed some people who were also going that way.

 

Then, I arrive to some room that was empty and no clue what to do. Finally, I see a temp power for teleporting to team, so I use it and get in the middle of... some fight I guess. I got one shot (or close enough) so I craft a wakie and by the time I revive, I am alone with no clue where to go so I start using doors randomly until I read in League chat that apparently the thing is finished and everyone is "wooo" and gj" and shit.

 

I kept wandering a little more until i got tp'd again to the league who, apparently were killing some guys who appeared periodically and were saying something about tagging and recalling.

 

I thanked for the invite after a while killing some foes that showed up apparently randomly and left without even knowing what the hell happened there.

 

Sooo, my question is, is that it? there must be more to the Labyrinth and Minotaur and all that, right?

It sounds like you joined right as the league was fighting the Minotaur and you teleported right into that fight which is unfortunate for you but isn't unique to just Labyrinth. Then you were teleported to the Ballroom Blitz (Or officially the Font) where you kill a lot of mobs to spawn the next GM and farm XP like in an MSR ❤️

I can't say for the instructions given as I wasn't there (That I know of) but there is a ton more to the Labyrinth 😄 From the lore, the secret rooms, to the mote finding and badge collecting. The guide posted by @caradoc1979 is slightly outdated since the new updates to the Labyrinth but this one is the most up to date where it includes the new room: 

 

[Without_Pause]

Unfortunately, with the way things get blitzed in the game, even new content, it further reminds me of why I avoid this type of content. I have a couple times done TFs and it felt like I got TPed around and then the next thing I know we are done and people are saying 'Thanks,' and I'm left going, "What the hell just happened?" Sure, doing them again and learning how to do them would help. The problem is the things are so unfun I don't feel like doing them again anyway.

[Laucianna]

33 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Unfortunately, with the way things get blitzed in the game, even new content, it further reminds me of why I avoid this type of content. I have a couple times done TFs and it felt like I got TPed around and then the next thing I know we are done and people are saying 'Thanks,' and I'm left going, "What the hell just happened?" Sure, doing them again and learning how to do them would help. The problem is the things are so unfun I don't feel like doing them again anyway.

Sadly that's the human nature coming through with speeding things, though I do believe this was a case of joining right at the boss fight and being overwhelmed, it would be like if someone joined the league during a Hamidon at the mito phase after the instructions were given out 🙂

[mechahamham]

39 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Unfortunately, with the way things get blitzed in the game, even new content, it further reminds me of why I avoid this type of content. I have a couple times done TFs and it felt like I got TPed around and then the next thing I know we are done and people are saying 'Thanks,' and I'm left going, "What the hell just happened?" Sure, doing them again and learning how to do them would help. The problem is the things are so unfun I don't feel like doing them again anyway.

 

Sadly, this is the post-40 game in general. There's very little skill involved. It's more about racing to see who can use their powers the fastest than it is even about learning the encounters. Having multiple teams means there's just that many MORE people to race against. Nobody waits to teach players new to the content how to excel.

 

The starred taskforces are a bit better about this, but even there it comes down more heavily on the side of 'Did you build your team correctly?' rather than 'Did you follow the boss's telegraphed attacks?' or 'Did you not stand in the fire?'

 

We've got a handful of really great leaders that *do* try to teach people how to do their best on the content, but they're not omnipotent.

Edited September 26 by mechahamham

[Without_Pause]

42 minutes ago, mechahamham said:

 

Sadly, this is the post-40 game in general. There's very little skill involved. It's more about racing to see who can use their powers the fastest than it is even about learning the encounters. Having multiple teams means there's just that many MORE people to race against. Nobody waits to teach players new to the content how to excel.

 

The starred taskforces are a bit better about this, but even there it comes down more heavily on the side of 'Did you build your team correctly?' rather than 'Did you follow the boss's telegraphed attacks?' or 'Did you not stand in the fire?'

 

We've got a handful of really great leaders that *do* try to teach people how to do their best on the content, but they're not omnipotent.

And I have so little desire to create a second build just for starred content. 

[Lunar Ronin]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

Unfortunately, with the way things get blitzed in the game, even new content, it further reminds me of why I avoid this type of content. I have a couple times done TFs and it felt like I got TPed around and then the next thing I know we are done and people are saying 'Thanks,' and I'm left going, "What the hell just happened?" Sure, doing them again and learning how to do them would help. The problem is the things are so unfun I don't feel like doing them again anyway.

 

It partly depends on which shard you play on.  Many Excelsior players will try to speed run everything, and even try to force it when you're the team or league leader.  It's one of the main reasons why I left the shard.  On the other hand, things tend to be ran nice and slow on Indomitable, with nary a Fold Space or Incandescence Destiny in sight, with The Underground Trials that take slightly over a hour.  It's quite nice.

[Nightmarer]

1 hour ago, Laucianna said:

I can't say for the instructions given as I wasn't there (That I know of) 

*cough*

[Laucianna]

4 minutes ago, Nightmarer said:

*cough*

I assume this means it was me leading? XD In which case I do post the instructions in league chat of what we are doing, why we are doing it, and what to avoid 😄 And even when people are confused still and ask in league or send me a tell I try my best to help them, sadly I am not omniscient so I do not know when one of the dozens on the league is: Knowledgeable on what to do without instructions, following the instructions I do post, confused by what is going on and needs that extra bit of guidance, or just afk for whatever reason ❤️

Majority of league leaders try their best to give clear instructions in their own way, and I do think I do a decent job in explaining what we are doing as we do it without just speeding people through with incans as the way I run Minotaur is as follows:

When hunting fogs every few minutes post:
Our goal is simple, to get enough level shifts to fight the Minotaur!
The best way to do this is searching the Labyrinth for Malevolent Fogs and killing them (They do not fight back so anyone can kill them)
So pick a random portal or door and start searching! Once we have enough level shifts I will gather us in one spot to await the Minotaur!

Once we have enough level shifts:
We now have enough level shifts ready to fight the Minotaur! For now keep searching for fogs and if you see the Minotaur, IF YOU SEE THE MINOTAUR SHOUT "MOOOOOOOO" (✿◠‿◠)

Once the Minotaur is found I will incan the league behind them whilst taunting the Mino away for cone attacks and post:
SUMMON ALL OF YOUR PETS NOW!
Soon a prompt will appear asking you to teleport to his arena, press accept and continue killing the minotaur inside!
The Minotaur will also spawn Gladiators during the fight at low health and they NEEd to be killed ASAP as the Minotaur is immune to damage otherwise! Try to avoid the Tornados too.
If you are tanking, face him away from the league! If you are damaging, do it from behind!

Once the Minotaur is dead and someone runs off to head to the next room:
Well done all! Hold here for incan to the Ballroom Blitz if you would like tons of great XP and Influence! But if you are heading off take care and hope you had fun (✿◠‿◠)❤️

Once we are teleported to the new room it is either:
Soon the Mr Handsy will be spawing here and they have ONE simple mechanic to remember!
Around the room you will see friendly "Mythic Fog"s, we will hug these like they are our best friends! This will prevent you being pulled into your instant death (✿◠‿◠)

If the avatar is spawning or if not:
Very simple gang! We stick together and nuke EVERYTHING that dares spawn here! Using things like [Fold Space] is a god send here (✿◠‿◠) ❤️ So get your murder shoes on for this Ballroom massacre!
Oh! And don't step off the edges or in the direct centre of the room! You will die 😄
 

[JKCarrier]

4 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I have a couple times done TFs and it felt like I got TPed around and then the next thing I know we are done and people are saying 'Thanks,' and I'm left going, "What the hell just happened?" Sure, doing them again and learning how to do them would help. The problem is the things are so unfun I don't feel like doing them again anyway.

Same. The difficulty in these large group activities tends to be very binary. Either you're an expert, or you're a liability. The learning curve is a vertical line. 😛 

[Kaika]

Keep in mind, you don't NEED to do any of that as well, you can go in with a few people, or are just strong enough on your own, and just fight stuff. Sure it's easier if you know how the place works but you don't really have too, and the enemies in there give massive amounts of XP and influence. It's like never ending, harder radio mission, with a insane variety of enemies that can actually give a bit of a challenge to teams. I rarely see anyone just in there for casual murder (outside of the EB room) but I highly recommend it.

Edited September 26 by Kaika

[Ukase]

6 hours ago, mechahamham said:

There's very little skill involved.

So, I have to call BS on this. There is skill involved. Skill in developing the build. Skill in using the tools at our disposal - such as, Popmenus provided to us by other players. Skill in navigating the maps and recognizing patterns. Skill in recognizing positional awareness. If there were so very little skill involved, then the group of us that got clobbered by "the suck" (despite my best efforts to hide behind a pillar) have less than very little skill. And I just don't buy that. You'll never persuade me that speeders have very little skill. 

I get it, zipping around, ensuring you have an active stealth empowerment buff from the buff station that's across the hall from the labyrinth entry point, and using a draught of fog inspiration to get even more stealth so pretty much 90% of the bad guys in there can't see you - that kind of thing isn't for everyone. And it doesn't have to be! 

We had an MM in the labyrinth tonight. And when we were finally able to convey how to use Follow through the Fog, the malevolent fog was defeated and we went looking for more. 

I suspect this player was expecting to be with the league as a whole - not running off on their own looking for something they'd never seen before. (Malevolent Fogs) 

Now, we could easily have each team sticking together looking for fogs, but here's some issues with that: 

1. a number of folks are looking for motes, and only shout out fogs if they see one. I get it. Initially, I confused the motes for the history plaques and thought I'd get a badge once I got all of them. Now I've learned they give tiny buffs. Nifty, but not necessary. It slows things down. 
I completely understand that some folks like a slower pace. But that can be done after the mino is killed. (and you're not worried about him clobbering you) 
2. Time. To be fair, I don't think it's been tried yet, so not real sure how much longer it would take. As it is, when the fogs are announced, players port to the fog and help clobber it. The result is more fogs are beaten in a shorter span of time. At least, that's how it seems to me. When you have 8 players on a team, all with varying travel powers, their ability to traverse through various maps is going to change. Add to that - not all doors are going to lead to the same place for everyone. They're random. So, it would be pretty rough to keep the team together without using Follow through the Fog. And since we'd need to use that anyway, might as well have everyone run off and look, right? 

 

3. Given the temporary nature of the buffs, it makes sense to get them as fast as you can and clobber the mito before they wear off.  

Being leisurely in this trial doesn't align very well with a smooth run. At least, I don't see how being leisurely could work out well. 




 

[Ukase]

Oh yeah: 



It is mind boggling to me how many people enter the labyrinth and never take the time or trouble to right click on these black icons to see what they're about. They just ask for tp. Lazy! 
On the one hand, I get it, but on the other hand, lazy! Reading is a skill, too. 

So is reading comprehension. I'm still trying to master that one. 

[mechahamham]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

On the one hand, I get it, but on the other hand, lazy! Reading is a skill, too. 

 

I've got family members who are dyslexic. Online ANYTHING that's not strictly voice-only is a nightmare for them, so much so that they avoid things that require anything like reading comprehension. The anxiety it gives them to be expected to read something and understand makes any positives about the rest of the experience just not worth it.

 

However, I think that there's a lot more of what I call 'functional literacy' coming to the forefront, exposed by the modern shift to do everything online. That is, someone is literate enough to read labels on store shelves, or fill out a job application, but actually reading something to understand it is not something they've ever developed a habit for.

 

A while back, I saw some online drama around a certain streamer. One of the videos showed this fellow attempting to read a wikipedia page because someone, iirc, called him a fascist, and he had to look up what it meant. The page was its own special labyrinth for him. He tried to predict multi-syllable words based on the first couple letters and had to back up and restart reading them repeatedly. He had to sound out single- and double-syllable words to understand them. A lot of words and sentences he just gave up on entirely.

 

This guy SOMEHOW has a career making videos for the internet, but struggles to read a Wikipedia page.

 

I think that same general level of literacy is a lot more common than anyone would like to believe.

 

Something that's not uncommon at all seems to be blurring attention over the chat window, except for 'keywords'. Something that's happened to me *many* times is that I'll be explaining what something means in /help chat and happen to type a few letters that are or adjacent to some content name.

 

The most common version of this is that I'll say something like "DFB is 'Death From Below', a low level trial that's great for new players."

 

I immediately get several one word tells, "invite", despite not chatting in /lfg.

 

I don't get those tells if I don't actually use 'DFB' in my explanation, even if I do spell out 'Death from Below'.

Edited September 27 by mechahamham

[Without_Pause]

15 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

It partly depends on which shard you play on.  Many Excelsior players will try to speed run everything, and even try to force it when you're the team or league leader.  It's one of the main reasons why I left the shard.  On the other hand, things tend to be ran nice and slow on Indomitable, with nary a Fold Space or Incandescence Destiny in sight, with The Underground Trials that take slightly over a hour.  It's quite nice.

Reunion is my second home as I was looking to get back the name for one of my characters who had to change it due to a server move, and Reunion was the only server where it was available. The added XP makes it a good place to duo box as well. I'll likely spend some more time there getting on teams. 

[Ukase]

9 hours ago, mechahamham said:

I think that same general level of literacy is a lot more common than anyone would like to believe.

This hits me kind of hard. Now I feel badly. I have always tried to remind myself the player behind the keyboard could very well be a 9 year old kid. It's ridiculous of me to expect people to think the way I would. (and lord help 'em if they did - it hasn't always done me favors, lol) 

Still, is the onus of leadership to literally have to spell things out for players? Sure, some details. Like where it is. If it is true that most folks don't read patch notes, the only reason they even might be aware of the labyrinth is from word of mouth. So, I would think it a fair question to ask how they get there. 

The event itself is not intuitive. My first time in there, I'm looking for these historical plaques, and was ignorant of the fact they were in this "core", a separate room accessed by a special tp macro you get when obtaining the Conqueror of the Labyrinth accolade. (or using the follow to someone who's already there) 

I think the biggest issue with the entire labyrinth feature is that someone who's never done it before would fare much better with a primer on how things work. Or at least, how they can work. 
Stealth. Cobalt has (and correctly, imo) made some adjustments to allow for people without stealth to at least get some measure of it. 

Like an idiot, I always assume every single player uses superspeed with a celerity stealth in sprint. I can't think of but maybe 2 characters of my hundreds that don't. It's such a no-brainer for me, but then again - people don't think and play like me. At least, certainly not all of them. There are still some players trying to experience a lot of content just using SOs. 

I see players in this trial die repeatedly, and I know it's because they don't have stealth, OR, they see they're level shifted, target a mob and see them con grey, but miss the EBs hiding in the crowd and get slammed as a result. There's definitely a learning curve. 

And as painful as that curve may be for the first timers, if the people they team with are interesting/fun enough, they can push past the curve and get at least somewhat of an idea what is going on. And, sadly, for some folks, the awkwardness of that learning curve, particularly when it seems like everyone but you has already mastered things, it can be daunting. It's like you've gone from a Senior in high school to a freshman in college overnight. You're unsure, don't know where to go, and your league leader is just telling you it's normal to be confused and feel lost. Small consolation when you want to understand what's going on. 

Kill fogs? why? For me, the level shifts are meaningless. I want the reward merits! It's why I'm there. The level shifts are just a by-product. The HC Wiki says each fog gives 50 points progress on some level shift bar, which I'm far too obtuse to have noticed. Still, to kill fogs is how the level shifts are most easily acquired so that's what we do. For a player new to the trial, killing something that can't hurt you, doesn't regen, and is just sitting there...well, where's the fun in that? I can see where someone who doesn't get what's going on would be questioning things. 

Still, for me, as someone who was just as lost as anyone else the first time, (and I was reading the patch notes - but damnit, they're long. It's a lot to take in and absorb) I finally get it. I'm still trying to figure out how to hide behind a pillar and still be anchored to the mythic fog. But, thanks to lemming and the goddess, I've learned to place the mark and recall at the proper spot to get the league to "Uncle Touchy" (that's so hilarious). It was damned rough, I tell you. But we did finally get our 75 merits. 

I think it's kind of fun...and I promise you, it wasn't fun for me at first either. But I got there. 

As for those who may be functionally illiterate? It hurts me, but we cannot be expected to teach people to read. And to give the OP their due respect, clearly they can read and write at a level high enough to comprehend anything I've ever written, except maybe one of my papers in Quantitative Analysis. And even that wasn't too hard, I don't think. 

[Laucianna]

Thinking more on this I do wonder if there is anything you @Nightmarer or anyone else here thinks a Lead can do to help the event be clearer to understand? As you would have a better insight into what would help you better then I would ❤️ Perhaps there is something I can do moving forward to help others understand the content better 🙂 

[Nightmarer]

6 hours ago, Laucianna said:

Thinking more on this I do wonder if there is anything you @Nightmarer or anyone else here thinks a Lead can do to help the event be clearer to understand? As you would have a better insight into what would help you better then I would ❤️ Perhaps there is something I can do moving forward to help others understand the content better 🙂 

 

I don't think you should do anything more, I'll read the guide for next run and see how it goes. For people who do not read forums, might be confusing but I guess if something in an MMO is confusing, then you should go to the forums.

 

Missing your UG runs though.

[Laucianna]

5 hours ago, Nightmarer said:

 

I don't think you should do anything more, I'll read the guide for next run and see how it goes. For people who do not read forums, might be confusing but I guess if something in an MMO is confusing, then you should go to the forums.

 

Missing your UG runs though.

I am always of the mind that there is something more I can do ❤️ Even if a word I am using is not clear it can help to swap it out for one that is for instance 😄 And I am going to start those up again after the MSR's most days as I really enjoy UG!

[Communistpenguin]

I'm not a fan of the Labyrinth. I find it confusing and unfun. The mobs are dangerous enough that squishies should move as a team, but good luck with that. I did it enough to get the badges and whatnot and I do not plan on doing it again.