Broadsword is depressing.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

I mean, I know on newer sets they are, but a lot of OG sets weren't balanced with these things in mind, so if BS never got a once over (not sure if it has or not) then it's probable that it isn't actually balanced around animation/root times.

I happen to have a copy of the Issue 6 Prima guide saved on my hard drive. The current cast times are significantly shorter than those from 2005, so at least the BS animations have gotten a once over.

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, Nightmare Shaman said:

I've solo'd ITF and done almost all difficult game content.  Been playing since 2004.  I make my own builds and am well versed in def, res, debuffs, hard caps, etc.  With all that in mind, I can tell you Parry is a power from a bygone era.  An era long before i/o set bonuses, and the ability to set mission difficulty, and increases to damage scales, etc..  I've seen so many people on forums only talk about parry and its uses and I can tell you with certainty if your build relies someone on parry, well you're doing it wrong (or you're playing on minimum difficulty and don't really understand what is happening behind the scenes).  The only thing parry brings to your arsenal is a decrease in dps.  I like the way it looks (BS version), but it simply does nothing for your build in terms of actual survivability and actual kill times.  It's just a waste of time and slots.

And, the only reason I even mentioned parry is because someone actually tried to compare it to clobber.  

I will say this - if you're using parry and think it is serving a purpose, try doing the same mission without using it and see if you die.  Also, try timing a mission with and without using parry in your rotation and see if there is a difference.  You know what would be awesome and change the game?  Make parry give 10-15 seconds of ddr.  Then I would use it, and it would functionally serve a purpose again.  Or, just give it mid tier or high tier damage similar to how clobber was adjusted.  Then, everyone would take it and the def bonus would just be lagniappe.  

Cool story, bro. I've been around since 2005 so you've got a year on me. 👍 I'm not interested in measuring [broad sword]s.

[Frostbiter]

I'm a masochist. I have a BS/DA Brute. By far one of my most survivable characters once you fix the end problems (and hoo boy there were some end problems). Really fun to play. Very crunchy. The lower damage vs other sets is really only noticeable in Slice and Whirling Sword. Those could use a little boost.

[Nightmare Shaman]

40 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Cool story, bro. I've been around since 2005 so you've got a year on me. 👍 I'm not interested in measuring [broad sword]s.

Buh bye.

[Nightmare Shaman]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

When it comes to the different powers and power sets, everything is factored. The damage each power does, the animation times of those powers, the endurance cost of those powers, the secondary effects of those powers. Everything.

 

For instance:

War Mace: Bash: 1.05 base accuracy, 7 feet range, 1.33 cast, 0.5 seconds before effect, 4 second recharge, 5.2 endurance, 10% chance of Mag 2 Stun for 5.96 seconds, 62.5615 damage.

Broadsword: Hack: 1.05 base accuracy, 7 feet range, 1.33 cast, 0.7 seconds before effect, 8 second recharge, 8.528 endurance, 100% chance of -7.5% target defense for 10 seconds, 102.6009 damage.

 

Edit again:

Broadsword: Slash: 1.05 base accuracy, 7 feet range, 1.33 cast, 0.5 seconds before effect, 4 second recharge, 5.2 endurance, 100% chance of -7.5% target defense for 6 seconds, 62.5615 damage.

 

Edit yet again:

Let's also take a look at Crowd Control vs. Head Splitter.

War Mace: Crowd Control: 1.05 base accuracy, 8 feet range, 2 second cast, 0.9 seconds before effect, 12 second recharge, 11.856 endurance, 180 degree arc, 10 target max, 100% chance of Mag 0.67 KB (KD), 100.724 damage.

Broadsword: Head Splitter: 1.05 base accuracy, 10 feet range, 2.33 second cast, 1.233 seconds before effect, 14 second recharge, 13.52 endurance, 20 degree arc, 5 targets max, 60% chance of Mag 0.67 KB (KD), 100% chance of -7.5% target defense for 10 seconds, 162.6599 damage.

 

Powers are not just animation time and damage. So if you want to have Broadsword changed, you need to provide justifying data that the devs can readily check to convince them to change it.

 

 

You just provided the useful information (not just data) that justifies it, as did I earlier.  

WM hits more targets, has a wider arc, has arguably a "better" damage type (smashing), hits harder with most attacks, and has the hardest hitting single target attack with the lowest animation.  So, what are you saying exactly?  -def justifies lower damage, less targets, less arc, and no clobber equivalent?

Head Splitter and Crowd Control are NOT similar powers.  Head Splitter and Shatter are similar.  Why would you compare a 180% arc power with a 20% arc power but to muddle the discussion?  Clearly, that doesn't make any sense.  Why are you so vested in defending a clearly, tangible, mathematical difference that is most readily observable in the manner I listed earlier?  (i.e. spreadsheet style)  It's an indefensible point, which is why you attempt to muddle the details instead of analyzing simple, relevant comparisons.  

Broad Sword is simply inferior to katana, War Mace, and Battle Axe, and all it takes is simple math (addition and/or subtraction) to witness this.  The only subjective point would be arguing the value of -def versus knockdown, or stun chances, etc.  

You keep saying versions of the same tired argument ... "many things come into play in assessing value" then you post the numbers that clearly prove Broadsword is objectively inferior.  If you take clearly similar powers from each set and put them side by side, there is never an instance where BS comes out on top.  Compared to katana, the animations are significantly longer with barely more damage.  Compared to War Mace, as I've demonstrated so many times, the animation times are similar, the endurance is similar, yet war mace does more damage and to more targets and has a significantly better single target attack with fast animation.  And, BA has similar advantages to WM, but with the added convenience of a pbaoe whirlwind with two true aoe's that don't require positioning.  

It's the bottom of the pack with no discernable advantages over the others (aside from ability to be used with shield compared to katana).

[Without_Pause]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

(Edit: I would also ask that you prove that "a lot of OG sets weren't balanced with these things in mind", because even back on Live, there was great discussion about how the sets were balanced, and the animation times were part of those discussions.)

 

(Kinetic Melee enters the chat)

 

I've only lightly done dives into DPS for melee, but I've done enough to where I've stopped trying to have it make sense. 

[Kaika]

I don't know why people are comparing BS to WM or Axe, other then visual/thematic similarity the sets aren't really much alike. WM has a much bigger focus on big hits with clobber and crowd control both being insanely powerful and defining the set, with a different damage type and secondary effect. Axe after the rework isn't even comparable out side of visual similarity, it's a very unique set now. While we can certainly compare different sets, outside of theme, theirs no real reason to focus on WM and Axe over comparing to any other melee set.

 

Katana on the Other hand is basically 1 for 1, and comes out on top in just about every power comparison, with only hack coming out on top of Sting of the wasp really, which still isn't a win since gambler cut beats it out in DPS with a extremely low 3 second base recharge, and sting of the wasp easily beats slash. As a stalker main, with how stalker play these days, I would go Ninja blade over BS any day, maybe back before the rework I could see BS having advantages but stalkers are far more scrappy now, DPA is more important, and the faster animations make it easier to build up assassin's focus quickly.

Edited October 2 by Kaika

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Nightmare Shaman said:

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

When it comes to the different powers and power sets, everything is factored. The damage each power does, the animation times of those powers, the endurance cost of those powers, the secondary effects of those powers. Everything.

 

For instance:

War Mace: Bash: 1.05 base accuracy, 7 feet range, 1.33 cast, 0.5 seconds before effect, 4 second recharge, 5.2 endurance, 10% chance of Mag 2 Stun for 5.96 seconds, 62.5615 damage.

Broadsword: Hack: 1.05 base accuracy, 7 feet range, 1.33 cast, 0.7 seconds before effect, 8 second recharge, 8.528 endurance, 100% chance of -7.5% target defense for 10 seconds, 102.6009 damage.

 

Edit again:

Broadsword: Slash: 1.05 base accuracy, 7 feet range, 1.33 cast, 0.5 seconds before effect, 4 second recharge, 5.2 endurance, 100% chance of -7.5% target defense for 6 seconds, 62.5615 damage.

 

Edit yet again:

Let's also take a look at Crowd Control vs. Head Splitter.

War Mace: Crowd Control: 1.05 base accuracy, 8 feet range, 2 second cast, 0.9 seconds before effect, 12 second recharge, 11.856 endurance, 180 degree arc, 10 target max, 100% chance of Mag 0.67 KB (KD), 100.724 damage.

Broadsword: Head Splitter: 1.05 base accuracy, 10 feet range, 2.33 second cast, 1.233 seconds before effect, 14 second recharge, 13.52 endurance, 20 degree arc, 5 targets max, 60% chance of Mag 0.67 KB (KD), 100% chance of -7.5% target defense for 10 seconds, 162.6599 damage.

 

Powers are not just animation time and damage. So if you want to have Broadsword changed, you need to provide justifying data that the devs can readily check to convince them to change it.

 

 

Expand  

You just provided the useful information (not just data) that justifies it, as did I earlier.  

WM hits more targets, has a wider arc, has arguably a "better" damage type (smashing), hits harder with most attacks, and has the hardest hitting single target attack with the lowest animation.  So, what are you saying exactly?  -def justifies lower damage, less targets, less arc, and no clobber equivalent?

Head Splitter and Crowd Control are NOT similar powers.  Head Splitter and Shatter are similar.  Why would you compare a 180% arc power with a 20% arc power but to muddle the discussion?  Clearly, that doesn't make any sense.  Why are you so vested in defending a clearly, tangible, mathematical difference that is most readily observable in the manner I listed earlier?  (i.e. spreadsheet style)  It's an indefensible point, which is why you attempt to muddle the details instead of analyzing simple, relevant comparisons.  

Broad Sword is simply inferior to katana, War Mace, and Battle Axe, and all it takes is simple math (addition and/or subtraction) to witness this.  The only subjective point would be arguing the value of -def versus knockdown, or stun chances, etc.  

You keep saying versions of the same tired argument ... "many things come into play in assessing value" then you post the numbers that clearly prove Broadsword is objectively inferior.  If you take clearly similar powers from each set and put them side by side, there is never an instance where BS comes out on top.  Compared to katana, the animations are significantly longer with barely more damage.  Compared to War Mace, as I've demonstrated so many times, the animation times are similar, the endurance is similar, yet war mace does more damage and to more targets and has a significantly better single target attack with fast animation.  And, BA has similar advantages to WM, but with the added convenience of a pbaoe whirlwind with two true aoe's that don't require positioning.  

It's the bottom of the pack with no discernable advantages over the others (aside from ability to be used with shield compared to katana).

Are we reading the same things? First, smashing and lethal damage are the most resisted damage types in the game. Second, when you compare Slash to Bash, the powers that you said were equal and are, the only difference between them is Bash has a 10% chance of stunning a target while Slash has a 100% chance of reducing the target's defense, they are the exact same. Third, I compared Crowd Control to Head Splitter because both of those powers are the sets' capstone powers. If you compare a power you can get at level 2 from your primary to a power you can get at level 26 from your primary and expecting them to be anywhere near comparable, then either you want that T9 power you get late in the game to be a joke or you want that T3 you get almost at start to be god tier. Neither is acceptable. Fourth, when you compare the two capstone powers from the sets, they are comparable. Crowd Control has a wider arc, but Head Splitter has a farther reach. Crowd Control has a guaranteed KD if the target lacks KB resistance, but Head Splitter has a high chance of knocking down targets while also guaranteed to debuff their defense. Crowd Control can hit more targets, but Head Splitter hits roughly 2/3s harder.

 

Edited October 2 by Rudra
Edited to merge 2 sentences into 1 to complete the first sentence. And again to remove "power".

[Owl Girl]

as long as BS remains clearly inferior to Katana, i'm fine with any buffs to it. but there does need to be some sets that are weaker than the best sets (Katana, Beam-Rifle, Owl Technique, etc.) or my suspension of disbelief suffers.

[ZacKing]

I don't think that Broadsword is all that bad.  I had a SD/BS Tank on live that was really quite fun to play and tough as anything.  I think what makes it seem weak is because it's damage is so heavily resisted by just about everything.

 

Now I want to roll a SD/BS tank 😂

[mistagoat]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

I don't think that Broadsword is all that bad.  I had a SD/BS Tank on live that was really quite fun to play and tough as anything.  I think what makes it seem weak is because it's damage is so heavily resisted by just about everything.

 

Now I want to roll a SD/BS tank 😂

I'd be interested in hearing how you like it.

I had a BS/Will Scrap on live and remember it fondly, I felt like a real force of destruction! Then I made a BS/Ice Scrap on HC and I didn't like it at all, felt very weak. 

I don't think BS has taken any nerfs so I can only chalk it up other sets getting buffed/reworked and leaving BS feeling a bit weak and slow in comparison. 

I look forward to hearing about your tanking adventure!

 

[ZacKing]

40 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

I'd be interested in hearing how you like it.

 

I had one on live and really enjoyed playing it.  I just haven't gotten around to remaking all of my characters from back in the day yet.  😁  Sword and board was always a strong combo.

[Yomo Kimyata]

My main on Live was a BS/Inv scrapper and he was my main here when I started up on HC.  On Live, the argument was about how superior katana was to BS because of better dpa/dps numbers, but I don’t think people paid much attention to proc activation chances (at least after the switch to PPM).

 

I’m sure that the design was trade off of damage v. survival .  Parry is a wonderful survival power and a terrible damage power.  The PTB kept that trade off for things like Staff and Kinetic Melee, then looked away for Titan Weapons.  And now survivability is no longer a real concern in the meta.

 

Broadsword is fine, but it also is at the bottom of the pack right now.  I have zero doubts that it is going to be re-examined and power crept.

[Shin Magmus]

     I fully expect Broadsword to get touched up at some point, just like Battle Axe was.  Would I prefer if buffs to the weak powersets were a higher priority than pumping out weird underpowered new sets that often end up very unpopular after the honeymoon phase wears off (as least Marine Affinity is good)?  Yes, of course.  But since we can't control what sets get picked for buffs, we just have to wait and hope that Broadsword will one day become not-trash in the same vein as Battle Axe, Trick Arrow, FF, etc.

 

Oh hey, this post about Broadsword vs Katana looks relevant...

[lemming]

At least BS has the ability to use a shield over Katana...  (And yes, that's my one BS character.)

 

BS works, it's not the best like a lot of powers that aren't top of the line, but worst isn't that far off of best.