Thoughts on Fold Space Etiquette on Leagues and Teams

[mistagoat]

7 hours ago, Crysis said:

 

If you've got the height, I find if you leap upwards as high as you can and trigger FS at the apex of the leap, they fall down in a nice tight "ball" and as a bonus, many are falling as if they've suffered a Knockdown effect.  

 

My experience anyways.  Do it this way in the outdoor ITF a bunch for clumping and burning in the killboxes.  But I've seen it being done at the Murder Apartments in PI during TOT events also so I know I'm not the only one who has figured this out.

Thank you! I'm excited to try this!

[Laucianna]

Fold space can gather 16 very spread out mobs within a 100ft area into a single point instantly every 30-45 seconds or so, which unless you enjoy walking from mob to mob killing it and AoEs being used on 2-3 mobs max is a net benefit to all. ITF is a perfect TF where Fold Space can honestly shine so much with how often the groups of mobs are spread out and makes it easy for a tank (Tank not just Tanker) to gain agro as they will be pulled within their taunt aura/pboae taunt powers, before the split up mobs have a chance to destroy your squishes.

Bottom line is Fold Space is a power that when used well is super useful and it's not hard to learn how to use it well imo, unlike things like knockback where you either need an enhancement slot to turn it to knockdown or play a game of orbit around the mobs using it to make sure they are going into the middle which is much harder to do on most teams I find myself joining with how fast everybody kills.


If someone is Fold Spacing mobs away from the tanker (On purpose and not bugged as it sometimes is) it's up to the team lead to be social and say "Hey, can you use Fold Space when on top of the tank instead of randomly? To gather them all up there :)"

If that player refuses and the team lead thinks it is hindering the rest of the team too much, you kick them. The team lead has that power for a reason, and it is fully okay to use as unless you are a jerk with kicking (Right before the reward at the end of a TF) you're not suddenly going to get a terrible reputation and no one join your teams.

#KickSelfishPlayers

[srmalloy]

On 10/7/2024 at 12:18 PM, mistagoat said:

My only beef with fold space is how it arranges baddies. Occasionally it'll nicely clump them up but more often it drops them in 1 long conga line. Just 1 long single file line and if you got a good number of baddies, that line is a good bit larger than a fire rain or ice patch or similar. I want to love it more but its more a novelty on the toons that I've taken it with.

I wonder whether this is the same issue that the HC staff fixed with the invasion events, where the spawns used to migrate to the northeast as the event continued. I've noticed the same thing with my Grav/Traps controller, where I'll put down a spread of mines, then Wormhole a nearby spawn onto the mine field, only to have the Wormholed spawn trail off in a line to the northeast with the mobs at the end out of the blast radius of the mine field.

[Andreah]

13 hours ago, Crysis said:

 

If you have enough global accuracy and +ToHit you don't need Ultimates.  I'm doing it regularly with a single slotted 50+5 Fold Space and Tactics with a bunch of +Acc and +ToHit bonuses.

 

 

It's not accuracy, you have to have enough teleport magnitude to move them even if you hit them.

[Shin Magmus]

9 minutes ago, Andreah said:

It's not accuracy, you have to have enough teleport magnitude to move them even if you hit them.

     This is correct.  The Halloween event seems to cap out at lv53 enemies, whereas TFs and MSRs will have lv54 Bosses and EBs; those are the situations that actually require Ultimate Insps.

[Andreah]

6 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     This is correct.  The Halloween event seems to cap out at lv53 enemies, whereas TFs and MSRs will have lv54 Bosses and EBs; those are the situations that actually require Ultimate Insps.

Also, in most incarnate content it is easier to FS bosses and EB's, due to the the players' +2 and +3 shifts turning on if they have them.

[Excraft]

@Crysis @Andreah @Shin Magmus - you're straying off the topic at hand for this thread.  If you'd all like to have a discussion about how Fold Space works, I kindly ask you to please create a guide or start a separate thread for that.  This thread is for people to discuss the etiquette of using Fold Space or not on leagues like ToT.  Thank you.

[Crysis]

2 hours ago, Andreah said:

It's not accuracy, you have to have enough teleport magnitude to move them even if you hit them.

 

True, although I often don't want to miss so I go overkill on Accuracy and ToHit anyways.  

 

But you just educated me....didn't realize Ultimate would do anything if I'm already topped out at 50+3 in iContent, or 50 for zone events like ToT so I've ignored them.

[Andreah]

27 minutes ago, Crysis said:

But you just educated me....didn't realize Ultimate would do anything if I'm already topped out at 50+3 in iContent, or 50 for zone events like ToT so I've ignored them.

If you are rich enough, you can enjoy the multitude of benefits from and additional level shift as often as you like. There are circumstances where you can't use the inspirations though.

[Andreah]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

@Crysis @Andreah @Shin Magmus - you're straying off the topic at hand for this thread.  If you'd all like to have a discussion about how Fold Space works, I kindly ask you to please create a guide or start a separate thread for that.  This thread is for people to discuss the etiquette of using Fold Space or not on leagues like ToT.  Thank you.

I believe how Fold Space works and what affects it is absolutely on-topic for discussing the etiquette of when, where, and how it's used.

[ZacKing]

8 hours ago, Laucianna said:

If someone is Fold Spacing mobs away from the tanker (On purpose and not bugged as it sometimes is) it's up to the team lead to be social and say "Hey, can you use Fold Space when on top of the tank instead of randomly? To gather them all up there :)"

 

Please don't take this the wrong way as it isn't directed at you personally, but has the game and player base gotten to the point where we can't be arsed to even move anymore?  Mobs have to be teleported to us and insta-nuke them in 1 hit?  I just can't see the enjoyment there. 

[Crysis]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

I'd explain the real reason, but my opinions have no value, so yeah, we're lazy.

 

One player = one opinion.  Yours is no less than mine.  Speak your mind!

[ZacKing]

18 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I'd explain the real reason, but my opinions have no value, so yeah, we're lazy.

 

Haha.  I guess we're not getting any younger! 

[Spaghetti Betty]

I love Fold Space! And this is coming from someone who got used to doing a lot of old school herding.

 

It's definitely a misunderstood power and often utilized incorrectly. Communication (or godlike awareness) is key! Me and some buddies of mine have created some absolutely massive balls of chaos when using herding and Fold Space efficiently. It's one of the reasons our small-team beta testing of the Labyrinth went so well!

 

It boils down to "something something great responsibility", or whatever the guy on the box of rice said!

[Shin Magmus]

2 hours ago, Krimson said:

I'd explain the real reason, but my opinions have no value, so yeah, we're lazy.

Well I hope you feel better and know that your opinions do have value.  I recommend a break from this blighted forum, it can do wonders.

[Laucianna]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

Please don't take this the wrong way as it isn't directed at you personally, but has the game and player base gotten to the point where we can't be arsed to even move anymore?  Mobs have to be teleported to us and insta-nuke them in 1 hit?  I just can't see the enjoyment there. 

Games are made to make you feel good, when you group up 16 scattered mobs into a single area so your team can nuke them it activates the dopamine in your brain 💛 Same as when you use a heavy hitting attack and do half an enemies hit points, it's not you are too lazy to use weaker powers to do it slower, but you get a hit of dopamine when you do something effective especially when it has a visual affect like fold space where you can see it take place 🙂

[ZacKing]

On 10/9/2024 at 5:26 PM, Laucianna said:

Games are made to make you feel good, when you group up 16 scattered mobs into a single area so your team can nuke them it activates the dopamine in your brain 💛 Same as when you use a heavy hitting attack and do half an enemies hit points, it's not you are too lazy to use weaker powers to do it slower, but you get a hit of dopamine when you do something effective especially when it has a visual affect like fold space where you can see it take place 🙂

 

Well yeah, that's true.  It's also a dopamine hit to be on a melee character fighting a large mob.  When someone uses Fold Space to pull them away from you, that's where the fun gets taken away. 

[Lunar Ronin]

46 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Well yeah, that's true.  It's also a dopamine hit to be on a melee character fighting a large mob.  When someone uses Fold Space to pull them away from you, that's where the fun gets taken away. 

 

Bingo.  The nukeball meta of teleporting mobs away to nuke them is great for ranged players, at the expense of melee players.

 

Edited October 13 by Lunar Ronin

[Shin Magmus]

     ...Fold Space literally benefits melee players more than ranged players as melee AoEs are universally smaller in size, and (outside of Tankers) have reduced target caps compared to ranged AoEs.  Fold Space benefits the melee ATs by grouping enemies together more closely, enabling them to get reliable target-saturated multihits with melee cones such as Flashing Steel and Crowd Control, that the default spacing of an enemy spawn is too spread out to allow.  Ranged ATs can just stay where they were and shoot the far away enemy, while melee ATs would've had to move over to them (costing time).  Fold Space is most beneficial to the melee ATs in the party, and often used by them.

[Crysis]

^^^^ basically this.

 

Melee characters -specifically- benefit from Fold Space, maybe more than any other class, as they can cover themselves with critters and generally sustain the swarming effect better than their unarmored peers.  In fact I almost always try to fit in FS on my melee characters for just this reason.

 

I think what I see with this thread is a case of “But I should be the one doing….”-ism, and people are feeling like their perceived “role” is being usurped by a pesky “other AT” with Fold Space.  Which it can be if used appropriately or at the very least used to assist the process.

 

As someone said upthread there’s Tanker the AT and then there’s tanking using auras, status patches (eg; Bonfire) or control effects alongside Fold Space to do Tanker like aggroing for the team.  And that’s the heart of this whole “etiquette.”  Some players feel like their special whatever has been infringed upon and it makes them feel less whole as a result.  Nothing to do with the power or its function.  It’s player mentality of neat little boxes of roles and a mindset of scarcity of playstyles that is the real issue.

 

Now Group Fly…..that’s different as it it can completely disable certain powers from even activating on some players.  That’s infringement. Yess NtG can fix that but in the middle of a TF it’s usually too late to make that visit.  

[Laucianna]

11 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Well yeah, that's true.  It's also a dopamine hit to be on a melee character fighting a large mob.  When someone uses Fold Space to pull them away from you, that's where the fun gets taken away. 

This isn't an issue with Fold Space but an issue with the player then, as if say a blaster is Fold Spaceing them away from the melee into their own little corner to kill then that player should be asked to not do that. If we are going with the argument that Fold Space is bad because it affects mobs the same can be applied to all manner of CC:

Someone runs in with a nuke and knocks them all back away from the Melee and scattered.
The melee try to bundle the mobs together but the Controler/Dominator has just aoe immobilized them.
The leader or main tank is herding them all nicely to an area, but someone else is taunting them away scattering the mobs.
Someone used group fly and now some of the teams powers are unusable.
Level 50+1 uber player just nukes everything and makes the rest of the team feel useless.
Tank leaves behind a purple boss to go herd the next group as that purple boss wrecks havoc on the squishes.
Someone runs of to do their own thing in a mission. 

I could go on and on as these threads keep appearing hating on this power/AT/playstyle but the base line is: The player disrupting the team is the problem, so either encourage them to stop or if you are team lead remove them.

Personally if someone was doing something on a team I was leading that was hurting the team, I would suggest a better use for it, whether that is fold spacing onto the tank, turning off group fly, or sticking together as a team 💛

[Andreah]

37 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

I could go on and on as these threads keep appearing hating on this power/AT/playstyle but the base line is: The player disrupting the team is the problem, so either encourage them to stop or if you are team lead remove them.

This. If you are the team leader, set some rules if you feel you need them. If you aren't the team leader, do your best to follow the rules they set, find another team, or run your own.

[ZacKing]

38 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

This isn't an issue with Fold Space but an issue with the player then

 

Correct.  As several people already mentioned here, communication is key.  When/where/how to best utilize the strengths and abilities and skill of the team is found through communication.  If one person is doing something that impacts another, talk to each other and find a compromise.  I think that's the gist of this thread, at least to me. 

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

   ...Fold Space literally benefits melee players more than ranged players as melee AoEs are universally smaller in size, and (outside of Tankers) have reduced target caps compared to ranged AoEs.  Fold Space benefits the melee ATs by grouping enemies together more closely, enabling them to get reliable target-saturated multihits with melee cones such as Flashing Steel and Crowd Control, that the default spacing of an enemy spawn is too spread out to allow.  Ranged ATs can just stay where they were and shoot the far away enemy, while melee ATs would've had to move over to them (costing time).  Fold Space is most beneficial to the melee ATs in the party, and often used by them.

 

I agree with most of what you said here with the exception of the highlighted part.  I honestly don't see the need to have everyone stand around having stuff teleported to them to nuke it.  I personally don't think that's fun at all, but if you do then more power to you.  Play how you like.  Just seems like a very lazy way to play where people can't even be arsed to press some keys to move around. 

 

It reminds me of the whole Jellyfish ship debate over in STO.  Ever since Cryptic released that ship, AFKing in TFOs skyrocketed because people use that ship to just park and go AFK with the ship console doing the bare minimum damage to avoid the auto AFK penalty.  It's a lazy way to play if you ask me and I don't get the enjoyment of doing that, but that's just opinion.  Again, play how you like.   

[Shin Magmus]

15 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

I agree with most of what you said here with the exception of the highlighted part.  I honestly don't see the need to have everyone stand around having stuff teleported to them to nuke it.  I personally don't think that's fun at all, but if you do then more power to you.  Play how you like.  Just seems like a very lazy way to play where people can't even be arsed to press some keys to move around. 

 

It reminds me of the whole Jellyfish ship debate over in STO.  Ever since Cryptic released that ship, AFKing in TFOs skyrocketed because people use that ship to just park and go AFK with the ship console doing the bare minimum damage to avoid the auto AFK penalty.  It's a lazy way to play if you ask me and I don't get the enjoyment of doing that, but that's just opinion.  Again, play how you like.   

     This entire time you'd already convinced yourself that wherever you move and fight is right, and wherever anyone else moves and fights is wrong.  Whether they use Fold Space or not, you've already demonized your teammates in your mind because you keep using derogatory words like "very lazy".  They were never going to be able to please you, regardless of what they did.  I recommend solo play.