More pull-in effects for control sets

[Thezanman]

When playing a Mind Control character with the new version of Telekinesis, I found that being able to consistently group up enemies was a lot of fun and felt like a natural fit for the role of a control character. It makes for a more interesting and active playstyle of trying to pull as many enemies together as you can, allowing your team to use area attacks more effectively and compensating for the fact that an immobilizing power like Telekinesis doesn't do much to protect your team compared to other types of crowd control.

 

This is in contrast to the typical AoE immobilize powers in control sets (Fire Cages, Roots, etc.), which often end up counterproductively stopping enemies before they can naturally group up around melee teammates. For Controllers especially, these powers are a large part or all of their AoE damage potential, but if you use them immediately when engaging an enemy group you can potentially slow down your team by keeping the enemies scattered. 

 

Because of this, I think it would be an interesting idea to add a relatively small pull-in effect to these AoE immobilizes which would pull other enemies toward the enemy you target with the power. Telekinesis comes with a long cooldown and is an iconic Mind Control power, so I would give the other immobilizes a weaker effect similar to Axe Cyclone to avoid overshadowing Telekinesis. It would bring nearby enemies into a cluster immediately, but to fully pull in enemies from the edge of the area you would need multiple casts. Controllers would benefit from a unique way to support their team as well as more ways to synergize with secondary sets like Storm Summoning which are effective against clustered enemies, while Dominators would have more incentive to use a relatively low damage control ability to get more value out of their own area attacks.

[Uun]

Gravity Control has Wormhole and its pet has Gravitational Pull. There's also the pool power Fold Space. I have nothing against adding more powers with reverse repel, but it needs to be consistent with the set's theme. There's nothing about Fire, Ice or Earth control that would suggest that kind of ability and I think adding it to AoE immobilizes across the board  would be inappropriate.

[Thezanman]

I don't see any problem with inconsistent theming when it's already a given that most control sets can physically restrain enemies by shaping their respective element into a cage of some sort. From there, it's not much of a leap to say that you could move enemies after encasing them in ice or stone, especially since both of those sets already have powers that can move enemies by knocking them into the air. Fire and Electric Control may not have solid physical restraints, but they still have powers that can move enemies with intense flame or by causing muscle spasms. Probably the least logical circumstance would be Symphony Control, since it seems like it immobilizes enemies by affecting their mind rather than actually blocking their movement, but even then mind control could be a valid reason to force them to move.

 

In any case, the intent is to improve the usability of all AoE immobilizes without leaving any sets behind, and I don't think a small movement effect is enough to break immersion. Plenty of small compromises for the sake of gameplay already exist, like the fact that non-physical control sets such as Fire and Electric can immobilize enemies in cages in the first place. People probably wouldn't expect to have such an ability when thinking of a character that can control fire, but it also isn't such an unreasonable concept that anyone would complain about it. Ultimately, it's a good thing to ensure that all sets have a baseline level of effectiveness even if it doesn't strictly match with the ideal conception of their theme.

[Rudra]

Fire contains you through threat of burning. Ice and stone contain you by encasing your legs so you can't move. Electric contains you by overloading your nervous system. None of those imply any form of pull in. Gravity implies being able to move targets. So as far as theme goes? Applying pull in effects to the immobilizes doesn't make sense for most sets.

 

As for the immobilizing enemies keeps them scattered and you want them to be pulled together to make it easier to take them down en masse? That falls under tactics. Getting the enemies' attention and having them charge into a group, then immobilizing them in place. I don't see the point of adding a draw in effect to powers whose purpose is to lock down enemies in place when just a little bit of set up does the same thing without having to re-code powers.

[megaericzero]

As with Uun, I'm all for spreading draw-in to fitting powers. Emphasis on fitting, though. Spreading it for parity's sake and dismissing the powers' themes isn't something I would like.

 

And, Rudra already beat me to the punch, powers like Ring of Fire / Fire Cages already do have reasons they'd immobilize someone. They were designed with that in mind, even if some reasons are flimsier than others; they were not designed with any explanation on how someone would get pulled-in.

Edited November 3 by megaericzero

[Greycat]

21 hours ago, Thezanman said:

 

This is in contrast to the typical AoE immobilize powers in control sets (Fire Cages, Roots, etc.), which often end up counterproductively stopping enemies before they can naturally group up around melee teammates. For Controllers especially, these powers are a large part or all of their AoE damage potential, but if you use them immediately when engaging an enemy group you can potentially slow down your team by keeping the enemies scattered.

 

 

This is a player issue, not a powers issue. (Plus you don't necessarily know if it was "counterproductive" when the power was used. If a bunch of enemies are rushing the controller, melee is otherwise engaged and what they have is an AOE immob, they're using an AOE immob instead of hoping they survive until something else has aggro.)

 

Yes, the "collect" mechanic is interesting. No, it doesn't need to be copied over to every set. Yes, theme is important. As is diversity in powers and playstyle.

[kelika2]

On 11/3/2024 at 8:56 AM, Uun said:

Gravity Control has Wormhole and its pet has Gravitational Pull. There's also the pool power Fold Space. I have nothing against adding more powers with reverse repel, but it needs to be consistent with the set's theme. There's nothing about Fire, Ice or Earth control that would suggest that kind of ability and I think adding it to AoE immobilizes across the board  would be inappropriate.

fire: backdraft. replace it with cinders or merge it with cinders.  air sucking out holds because also heat inhalation

ice: ice funnel, think frostfire mission

earth: crater/sinkhole, everything falls to the center

Edited November 14 by kelika2

[Rudra]

8 hours ago, kelika2 said:

fire: backdraft. replace it with cinders or merge it with cinders.  air sucking out holds because also heat inhalation

Backdrafts occur when a fire is in an oxygen depleted area and suddenly gets a rapid flow of oxygen. For instance, a burning room where the fire has almost burned itself out for lack of remaining air, and someone opens the door to get in will cause a backdraft. We aren't fighting in areas where backdrafts make sense. And even if backdrafts were added to the game, it would be a KB effect away from the point of origin, not a draw in effect.

 

8 hours ago, kelika2 said:

ice: ice funnel, think frostfire mission

What are you talking about? Do you mean the ice terrain we have to navigate to get through the map? Because Frostfire doesn't have any ice funnel powers.

 

8 hours ago, kelika2 said:

earth: crater/sinkhole, everything falls to the center

Sinkholes require holes for things to fall in. Something the game's terrain can't do. The closest I can see an earth immobilize doing for this would be a sand trap where you place an area of entrapping sand that is "falling" into an unseen hole in the middle of the effect drawing targets towards its center, but then the targets can either just leap out, fly out, or even just run out if they are faster than the flowing sand. (Edit: Which would also apply to a sinkhole or crater. Targets can just leap out, fly out, or even just run out.) Which makes it worthless as an immobilize.

 

Edited November 14 by Rudra
Edited to remove "d" from "an".

[OEM61]

Players have these power sets.  They have used these power sets.  They may like their set the way it is.  Changing these sets at this time because someone thought that pull-ins were "better" than some other options might leave some other people with some sour feelings about the changes.
And this is not to ignore that a pull-in might be a real stretch for some of them.

Maybe it is something they could look more closely at for some hypothetical future sets and see if they make sense, be they single target or mass pulls, but they should leave existing sets alone.

 

[srmalloy]

On 11/3/2024 at 2:05 PM, Greycat said:

This is a player issue, not a powers issue. (Plus you don't necessarily know if it was "counterproductive" when the power was used. If a bunch of enemies are rushing the controller, melee is otherwise engaged and what they have is an AOE immob, they're using an AOE immob instead of hoping they survive until something else has aggro.)

And I would rather see an increase in player awareness of the situation, rather than just arbitrarily slapping reverse repel on all/most AoE immobilization powers as a counter to the "before anyone else can react, slap down my AoE immobilization" fetish that leaves mobs scattered all over the place.

[Heliphyn34u]

Adding a "pull-in" mechanism to certain AoE mez powers would be nice, but I agree that it would need to fit the powerset's theme.  I can't really think of a good reason for ice or fire to draw mobs in, but an argument could be made for adding that effect to Quicksand.  It's a targeted AoE Slow, but having it slowly drag mobs to the center would make thematic sense.  It would make sense for Whirlpool, too.  I know, not Immob powers, but you get the idea.  Plus, it would be fun to watch mobs getting dragged backwards as they try to escape, mwahaha.

 

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Heliphyn34u said:

but an argument could be made for adding that effect to Quicksand.  It's a targeted AoE Slow, but having it slowly drag mobs to the center would make thematic sense.  It would make sense for Whirlpool, too.

I can get behind that. Sure.

[Owl Girl]

tbh it's laughably easy to justify this kind of change with any powerset. the real issue with broad suggestions to changing powers like this is that people have been using these powers and refining their tactics for like, twenty years. if You are a newer player then You may want to consider adopting the practices of the locals before attempting to suggest alterations to the game in ways that would have sweeping changes to the way people engage mobs.

 

You can absolutely disregard arguments about theme or flavour tho: other people's lack of flexibility or imagination holds zero merit in discussions like this imo.

[kelika2]

9 minutes ago, Owl Girl said:

adopting the practices of the locals

i didnt know you existed until a few minutes ago.

i say that to put it into perceptive on how impossible it is to do what you said

[Owl Girl]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

i didnt know you existed until a few minutes ago.

i say that to put it into perceptive on how impossible it is to do what you said

so that is your first problem! You are a Stranger in a Strange land and You need to learn what's up before You will be likely to come up with popular or actionable suggestions ❤️

[kelika2]

Just now, Owl Girl said:

You need to learn what's up

Yeah

no one is going to do that

[Owl Girl]

well, then their suggestions will get shot down for obvious reasons and they will feel like they are getting picked on, when in reality they are just ignorant and naive 😛

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

Yeah

no one is going to do that