Add Hitstop to Titan Weapons

[PoptartsNinja]

Titan Weapons has always felt kinda wrong to me, and after some chatting with the SG I realized the issue: it doesn't have hitstop.

For those not up on fighting games or (more appropriately), Monster Hunter: Hitstop is basically a state where your attack animation pauses for a brief period at the moment of impact to make the attack feel more impactful. Monster Hunter, notable big weapon game that Titan Weapons was patterned off of, has always been the master of using hitstop to make an impact feel really powerful.

 

In practice, this is what this looks like in Monster Hunter:

 

Titan Weapons lacks hitstop, so its attacks feel swooshy and anemic. It feels like you're swinging around a foam sword rather than a weapon. Worse, several of the animation effects associated with the hit are delayed which makes the set feel even weaker.

 

Compared to Titan Weapons:

 

 

 

My suggestion is to change the wind-up delay on momentumless Titan weapons into hitstop for everything but Whirling Smash, and add some minor hitstop (0.05 seconds?) to most of the Titan Weapons attacks when momentum is up.

What this change would entail: Animation timing changes for Titan Weapon swings. Since CoH doesn't track the moment of actual impact, adding an animation pause to the weapon swing at the moment it would hit a human-sized target (or human-sized primary target) would be sufficient. Some animations with awful lead-up animations (like Crushing Blow or Titan Sweep) could be sped up, and the awkward pause at the beginning/end of Titan Weapons attacks could be incorporated into the attack itself to make the set flow better even when momentum is down.

 

As an added bonus? Remove hitstop from Titan Weapons on misses entirely, so TW can "preserve the momentum" of a miss to chain it into the next attack. Since there's roughly a 1/20 miss chance, adding 1/20th of a second to each of TW's attacks via hitstop should even out with misses and make the set feel more responsive even when momentum isn't up.

 

 

 

I can't really change the animations, but I can change gif frame timing, so TW with Hitstop would look a bit more like this:

 

And, while we're at it, please add a nice meaty 'pow' sound effect at the moment of impact. Titan Weapons' sound design is really weak. It feels like you're trying to fight with air pressure rather than actually hitting them with a big heavy object.

Edited December 2 by PoptartsNinja

[biostem]

I'm not against your proposal, but reworking all the animations would probably not be with it...

[Triumphant]

1)  It would make attack chains slower to execute.  I wouldn't want that.

2)  It's a comic book world, where we assume that characters using this ridiculously massive weapons possess some degree of superhuman strength.  Because of this (the superhuman strength), the mass of the weapon does not affect angular momentum to the extent that it does in real life.

 

In short, I don't agree (also, I don't think the example video of the other game presents an animation that either 1) is more aesthetically pleasing and/or 2) more realistic in the context of the game.  And so, I must vote no.

[RikOz]

Honestly, TW's animations are such that there ought to be bisected enemies all over the floor.

[PoptartsNinja]

7 hours ago, Triumphant said:

1)  It would make attack chains slower to execute.  I wouldn't want that.

Not if they were compensated by removing some of the atrocious start-up / cooldown delays the set already has baked in.

The goal is for it to be less noticable when momentum is up, and more noticable when it isn't to smooth out the feel of the set when it's momentumless.

So basically if it takes an attack .8 seconds to wind up, .3 seconds to animate, and 1 second to do damage; it would instead basically do .5 seconds to wind up, .5 seconds to animate with .2 seconds of hitstop replacing .2 seconds of wind-up time (or whatever feels most natural), leaving an attack that still takes 1 second to animate. That should, and I admit I'm making assumptions, be a matter of adjusting animation timing / speed of existing animations rather than creating new ones. Which should be doable, given how much time has been shaved off attacks like Total Focus.

 

The end result is a set that hides its built-in delays a little better while also making it feel more impactful rather than its current weightless incarnation.

 

 

Edit: And some better impact sounds. Those always help. Energy Melee could use some too, but there's a mod for that at least.

Edited December 3 by PoptartsNinja

[Rudra]

Dumb question: why would titanic weapons with all their mass stop upon impact when light weapons still pass through? Wouldn't titanic weapons have an easier time punching through targets with all their mass than smaller weapons? (Edit: That was why execution swords and axes were so much more robust than combat weapons. To make sure they went through the target in one hit rather than risk the weapon not fully decapitating the target.)

 

Edit again: Another question: When you use one of Titan Weapons' four AoE attacks, would the hitstop apply just to the 1st enemy or would it have to trigger on each enemy in turn?

 

Edited December 3 by Rudra

[Zect]

Personally, I have always found TW too swishyswooshy and lacking in powpowkblam, so I support your proposition. I suspect that rejiggering animations is unlikely to happen though.

 

I especially like that you brought this up:

 

5 hours ago, PoptartsNinja said:

So basically if it takes an attack .8 seconds to wind up, .3 seconds to animate, and 1 second to do damage; it would instead basically do .5 seconds to wind up, .5 seconds to animate with .2 seconds of hitstop replacing .2 seconds of wind-up time (or whatever feels most natural), leaving an attack that still takes 1 second to animate. That should, and I admit I'm making assumptions, be a matter of adjusting animation timing / speed of existing animations rather than creating new ones. Which should be doable, given how much time has been shaved off attacks like Total Focus.

 

For anyone who doesn't know, powers in coh neither apply their effects at the start of the animation, nor at the end. There is a field in power data that indicates how far into the animation must pass before the effect is applied, appropriately called Animation Time Before Effect. Powers, especially damage powers, with long ATBE will feel very sluggish and unresponsive compared to powers with short ATBE, even given the same total animation time. I think a lot of Paragon's newer (post-GR) damage sets fall victim to this, as any beam rifle player can attest.

 

To illustrate how bad this issue is on TW:

 

Seismic Smash
Cast Arcanatime: 1.716 sec
Animation Time Before Effect: 0.833 sec (48.5% of the way through)

 

Rend Armor (slow)
Cast Arcanatime: 2.508 sec
Animation Time Before Effect: 2.267 sec (90.4% of the way through)

 

All I have to say is lmao.

[PoptartsNinja]

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

Dumb question: why would titanic weapons with all their mass stop upon impact when light weapons still pass through? Wouldn't titanic weapons have an easier time punching through targets with all their mass than smaller weapons? (Edit: That was why execution swords and axes were so much more robust than combat weapons. To make sure they went through the target in one hit rather than risk the weapon not fully decapitating the target.)

 

Edit again: Another question: When you use one of Titan Weapons' four AoE attacks, would the hitstop apply just to the 1st enemy or would it have to trigger on each enemy in turn?

 

 

1) Because hitstop is about feel. In fighting games, an attack with a longer hitstop feels stronger than an attack with almost none. Because the game is putting that extra emphasis on the hit, the hit feels more impactful. It's the difference between a quick jab and an uppercut, the extra pause when the uppercut hits makes it feel stronger to the user in that moment.

 

2) For the cones, it'd apply to the primary target of the cone. For Whirling Sword, it would be excluded since that's explicitly the "quick space-making AoE."

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, PoptartsNinja said:

an attack with a longer hitstop feels stronger than an attack with almost none.

 

I'm going to disagree with you.  Like Rudra said, the momentum of a giant weapon is significantly greater than the momentum of, say, a rapier.  Knowing this, a Titan Weapon would, to me at least, feel weaker if it stopped part of the way through every single enemy.

 

Now, if it were possible to only implement this on something like a Goliath War Walker, then I could see it.  Yes, the momentum of a Titan Weapon would be significantly reduced against the inertia of something that big.  But to my knowledge, that would be outside of the engine's capability.

[PoptartsNinja]

59 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

 

I'm going to disagree with you.

 

And that's fine, you're welcome to do so.

But it's true that hitstop is a psychology thing. By putting extra emphasis on the moment of impact, it makes the moment of impact stick in the memory a little more. Ideally the other melee sets would have it too--but a lot of the post-damage cooldown animations serve the same purpose.

The way Titan Weapons front loads many of its animations makes it feel more like Server Lag Melee.


Case in point:


If the animation finishes and you're back to neutral before the "the target gets hit" goes off, some of that 'forced reset, wait at neutral' animation at the end could be replaced with a little hitstop and a nice meaty 'crunch' when the weapon actually hits.

Edited December 3 by PoptartsNinja

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, PoptartsNinja said:

1) Because hitstop is about feel. In fighting games, an attack with a longer hitstop feels stronger than an attack with almost none. Because the game is putting that extra emphasis on the hit, the hit feels more impactful. It's the difference between a quick jab and an uppercut, the extra pause when the uppercut hits makes it feel stronger to the user in that moment.

I would have to say you have it backwards then. A lighter weapon should have the same impact, stopping when it hits a solid object like a monster from Monster Hunter or worn armor. A titanic weapon should stop when hitting something more solid than the lighter weapon. The feel you are looking for is the weight of the weapon. Which would be conveyed by knocking the target back or sideways if not of a sufficient mass to withstand the hit. Now if you were talking about a hitstop with the ground instead, then I would be inclined to agree. It would take longer to get the massive weapon back up and ready than it would a smaller weapon. However, if you want to argue how something feels rather than how something functions and you feel that having a more massive weapon means it feels stronger if it is affected by impacts that smaller weapons are not, that's up to you.

 

3 hours ago, PoptartsNinja said:

2) For the cones, it'd apply to the primary target of the cone. For Whirling Sword, it would be excluded since that's explicitly the "quick space-making AoE."

I figured that would be your response. And while I won't disagree because if it were to be applied to every enemy in turn then you would lose a lot of time with the set's attacks, I do have to ask why only the first target hit would do anything to impede the weapon and none of the other targets also being hit do not. After all, you are hitting each of them too, so they are being impacted as well. And with the momentum you lost with that first impact's hitstop, each following enemy should have a longer hitstop than the previous until the weapon is denied the ability to hit any further enemies despite not having reached its target cap yet.

 

1 hour ago, PoptartsNinja said:

If the animation finishes and you're back to neutral before the "the target gets hit" goes off, some of that 'forced reset, wait at neutral' animation at the end could be replaced with a little hitstop and a nice meaty 'crunch' when the weapon actually hits.

I believe this is better addressed by aligning the effect (and impact) to mesh with the animation. Not going to argue about "a nice meaty 'crunch'" though. Sound effects do go a long way to conveying depth and feel of action.

 

Edited December 3 by Rudra
Edited to add "than the lighter weapon" and to correct a comma to a period.

[Triumphant]

I would also not complain about tweaking the sound on certain attacks to more realistically immerse the player in the action.  The chainsword Titan Weapon is one that really stands out for me in a glaring way.  I want to hear a chainsaw sound when I'm weilding that thing, dang it! 

[megaericzero]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

Dumb question: why would titanic weapons with all their mass stop upon impact when light weapons still pass through? Wouldn't titanic weapons have an easier time punching through targets with all their mass than smaller weapons? (Edit: That was why execution swords and axes were so much more robust than combat weapons. To make sure they went through the target in one hit rather than risk the weapon not fully decapitating the target.)

 

Edit again: Another question: When you use one of Titan Weapons' four AoE attacks, would the hitstop apply just to the 1st enemy or would it have to trigger on each enemy in turn?

 

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I'm going to disagree with you.  Like Rudra said, the momentum of a giant weapon is significantly greater than the momentum of, say, a rapier.  Knowing this, a Titan Weapon would, to me at least, feel weaker if it stopped part of the way through every single enemy.

 

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I would have to say you have it backwards then.

I believe - and it's just a guess - Katana, Broad Sword, etc. are meant to be assumed as making glancing blows or wedging in only partially and being yanked back out as opposed to Titan Weapons cleaving clean through. If the graphics weren't PG13, TW would be a very gory set.

 

(I don't feel strongly about the suggestion for hitstop itself. I agree it "feels" better coming from Monster Hunter, unrealistic/wrong or not.)

[PoptartsNinja]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I would have to say you have it backwards then. A lighter weapon should have the same impact, stopping when it hits a solid object like a monster from Monster Hunter or worn armor.

 

 

You're misunderstanding what hitstop represents. It is not your weapon pausing because it's getting stuck in the target.

 

There are plenty of videos on the subject, I'd encourage checking out this one if you have any interest in learning more:

But, TLDR, hitstop adds rhythm to provide sensory feedback to the player. It's about making the hits more tactile, to sell the impact. That's why Monster Hunter typically adds more hitstop to stronger hits from the same weapon.

 

 

 

The same hits, without hitstop, lack weight. They lose out on drama.

 

 

 

It's entirely about adding feel to the weapon, like replacing a period with an exclamation mark.

 

Edit:

Titan Weapons is a set that really wants to have an exclamation mark or two, but feels like it lacks punctuation entirely.

Edited December 3 by PoptartsNinja

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

You're misunderstanding what hitstop represents. It is not your weapon pausing because it's getting stuck in the target.

I'm not running under any assumption of hitstop being about the weapon being stuck. (Edit: And my hitting the ground example has nothing to do with getting stuck either. It takes longer and more effort to lift a massive weapon than a small one.) It is about showing the weapon/attack hitting the target. I am aware of that. I'm just saying that as far as hitstop impacts go, the titan weapons should be affected less by hitstop than lighter weapons which would full on stop depending on the target. This is progressing beyond the questions I wanted to ask, so I'm not going to pursue this any further.

 

11 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

I believe - and it's just a guess - Katana, Broad Sword, etc. are meant to be assumed as making glancing blows or wedging in only partially and being yanked back out as opposed to Titan Weapons cleaving clean through. If the graphics weren't PG13, TW would be a very gory set.

I have to ask then why would a katana or a broadsword, let alone an axe or a mace, be assumed to be making glancing blows or anything else other than a full hit while titan weapons would be assumed to be making full blows. Yes, titan weapons would be a very gory set if the graphics of the game and the game's rating allowed it, but so would any sword or axe. This is a tangential discussion, so I'm stopping here, but I do have to say I very much disagree with your presentation of how the melee weapon sets work/are portrayed.

 

Edited December 3 by Rudra

[PoptartsNinja]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm not running under any assumption of hitstop being about the weapon being stuck. I am aware of that. I'm just saying that as far as hitstop impacts go, the titan weapons should be affected less by hitstop than lighter weapons which would full on stop depending on the target.

 

These statements are opposites, which is where you're getting hung up. Hitstop isn't about adding realism, it's a tool for adding drama. Like a pro wrestler flopping for 30 seconds to sell a suplex; an OBJECTION!; or an actor pausing in the middle of their dramatic speech to make their next line more memorable.

The shortest possible version is: bigger hits and bigger weapons pause more on impact to sell that it's a bigger hit or a bigger weapon.

 

Please watch the video I posted, it's only 7 minutes and some change.

[Super Atom]

This is genuinely one of those things where I'd like to see it actually done before judging how it looks. Your trick with the gif was spot on in terms of how the illusion of impact can be done, but im just not sure how it'd look overall in use. Your example was obviously clunky since it was just an example. How it looks in Monhon is good, but i'd still like to see it in use.

 

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to making the game look better though, so if the animator did do it well and it looks good, why not?

[biostem]

Here's the thing - should a titan weapon be stopped by a mere hellion?  How about a hydra?  Shouldn't it kind of slice through or get caught in their slime?  Against a DE stone creature, sure I could see it clanking off of their rocky exterior, but against any typical human enemy?  Should cut clear through...

[PoptartsNinja]

36 minutes ago, biostem said:

Here's the thing - should a titan weapon be stopped by a mere hellion?  How about a hydra?  Shouldn't it kind of slice through or get caught in their slime?  Against a DE stone creature, sure I could see it clanking off of their rocky exterior, but against any typical human enemy?  Should cut clear through...

But that isn't what hitstop represents.

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

But that isn't what hitstop represents.

There is a difference between a massive weapon cleaving through an object with no resistance vs one that does not permit it to cut through, so that would affect if and when you kind of lose momentum/have to recover.  Better to just leave it as-is if you can't account for those factors...

[PoptartsNinja]

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

There is a difference between a massive weapon cleaving through an object with no resistance vs one that does not permit it to cut through, so that would affect if and when you kind of lose momentum/have to recover.  Better to just leave it as-is if you can't account for those factors...

But again.

Hitstop does not represent a weapon getting stuck in its target.

Hitstop is a dramatic pause...

 

 

which emphasizes the power of the strike.

[biostem]

Just now, PoptartsNinja said:

But again.

Hitstop does not represent a weapon getting stuck in its target.

Hitstop is a dramatic pause...

 

 

which emphasizes the power of the strike.

Which would be affected by {wait for it] whether you encountered any resistance during said weapon swing.  Adding a "dramatic pause" without taking that into consideration is no better than what we have now, so it's a hard pass for me...

[Rudra]

Trying to sit this out, but I do have to point out that adding hitstop would impact other players using the set. Players that may be happy with how their big weapons aren't forced to stop when hitting a target and now would see their massive weapons stopping when hitting targets where other weapon sets do not. (Disclaimer, I do not currently have any Titan Weapons characters. I have not made any since the Live game shut down. However, Titan Weapons picking up an imposed stop/pause in their attacks for impacting targets will prevent me from making a Titan Weapons character on HC. Given my preference for fast attacks though, that isn't a consideration for the proposal. How it affects others already using the set however, should be considered.)

[megaericzero]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Trying to sit this out, but I do have to point out that adding hitstop would impact other players using the set.

As a power customization option, then, for those who want it? (As per the usual response.)

 

--

 

Tangentially related, since Poptarts keeps mentioning perceived impact:

I do think the power FX added later on live lack the same impact as early sets. For instance, all the later electrical and flame effects, such as Praetorian Clockwork. Electrical/Fire Blast and Melee sound way better with all the crackling, thuds, explosions, etc. Ion Judgment hits hard but it feels like a wet noodle because it's so soft.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

As a power customization option, then, for those who want it? (As per the usual response.)

How can you add a pause to all the attack powers in a set, as a mere "option"?  Again, I do not see this being worth the development time necessary to implement.  There's nothing stopping you, as a player, from "dramatically pausing" after the attacks...