Suggestion: Speedster (New Power Set for Attacks + Revamp for Super Reflexes)

[TheMoneyMaker]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Why? Just turn off the power(s) you don't need/aren't using. If this becomes a thing, what next? We don't have to pay for our mez protection toggles until an enemy applies a mez to us or for our damage auras until enemies start taking damage? (Edit: Maybe our armor toggles shouldn't cost us any endurance unless we are being attack by the appropriate type of attack it defends against.) (Edit again: It's not like we are trying to get across any large distances when we are fighting.) It is up to us to manage our endurance usage. If you have your travel power turned on despite knowing you can't use it because you are in combat, that is your choice to keep paying that cost.

 

That's a flawed comparison. Mez protection is working while the toggles are running whether you're being attacked or not.  The benefit isn't suppressed, even when you are mezzed it still determines how quick you come out of it. Travel powers have reduced effectiveness if you attack or are attacked because the original devs tried to limit jousting in pvp. I get combat being able to trip you up or slow you down, but that's what attacks with slow, knockdown, immobilize, and hold are for. If you happen to run through a mob's perception and attack range and they attack you, then you benefit of the full speed of your power briefly, so yes you could be trying to cross distances while "fighting" because there's no distinction between attacking or being attacked. If I choose to turn off my travel power to conserve endurance then I should lose the benefit of the power, but if I have my power suppressed against my will I shouldn't have to turn off the power to save endurance.

 

I'll go either way, suppress the power and the endurance or don't suppress either. But I'm against suppression of both because it was a pvp channge that crept into pve.

[TheMoneyMaker]

4 minutes ago, OEM61 said:

What I would say is just add a defense boost to super speed.
Make it cost what it costs endurance-wise, make it go however much slower it goes in combat, but add some defense boost while it is on because faster=harder to hit.
Same basic idea as hover or combat jumping, but since there is no room to add a new power to the pool, just build that little extra functionality into the basic movement power.
Not that I would be opposed to a 6th power in the Speed pool for such a thing, but it would open a can of worms that the devs would be dealing with for a long time as more and more people would be suggesting things to fill in the 6th slot of every other pool set.

(Or just take combat jumping and use it as the "combat speed" power as it does provide enhanced movement around the field of battle and a small defense buff)

I'd also be good with a "high-speed melee" kind of set.  From the rapid-fire punches to a high-speed ramming attack and whatever else.

But SR is fine as near as I can tell.  I have not played with it since the old days, but I don't really see many complaints, either.  I am real hesitant to support big changes to existing sets.  People are out there using it.  The proposal seems to just give it more and more, so something, somewhere, has to be taken, and I don't think I would want to be maining an SR character when that shoe dropped, or having to explain those changes to the players that were.
 

Fair. Slowing down speed but adding defense means the power is still doing something that justifies the endurance cost.

 

If there's no benefit, then there's no justification for the endurance cost and suggesting that it's incumbent on the players to turn off a suppressed toggle just because the game is about ebdurance management seems like a silly argument.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

That's a flawed comparison. Mez protection is working while the toggles are running whether you're being attacked or not.  The benefit isn't suppressed, even when you are mezzed it still determines how quick you come out of it. Travel powers have reduced effectiveness if you attack or are attacked because the original devs tried to limit jousting in pvp. I get combat being able to trip you up or slow you down, but that's what attacks with slow, knockdown, immobilize, and hold are for. If you happen to run through a mob's perception and attack range and they attack you, then you benefit of the full speed of your power briefly, so yes you could be trying to cross distances while "fighting" because there's no distinction between attacking or being attacked. If I choose to turn off my travel power to conserve endurance then I should lose the benefit of the power, but if I have my power suppressed against my will I shouldn't have to turn off the power to save endurance.

 

I'll go either way, suppress the power and the endurance or don't suppress either. But I'm against suppression of both because it was a pvp channge that crept into pve.

Not really. You and the author want travel power endurance costs suppressed because you aren't getting the benefit of the travel power while in combat. So by the same token, why should you have to pay the endurance costs of your armor or aura toggles when you aren't getting any benefit from them outside of combat or against enemies they don't apply to? It's the same thing. We control our character's endurance use. Not the game. It is up to us to manage our character's endurance use. I have melee characters that can run all their toggles including their travel power during combat and still be able to fight all day. Because I built them to do that. (Edit: Admittedly, they can't 1-shot bosses or even most lieutenants, except for the Stalkers, but you have a trade-off to do different things.) If you don't want to build to do that? That's fine. That also means that if your endurance bar can't handle the extra load, then you should turn off your unused powers like your travel power.

 

(Edit: Oh, and by the way? Travel suppression was not a PvP thing that crept into PvE. It has existed in the game since long before PvP was added to the game. That was to prevent us from jumping into fights our characters couldn't handle and then just darting away at full speed to safety when things took a turn for the worst. It wasn't equally applied to all travels, but it was there. And as far as Super Speed goes, I can still dart out of a bad fight at full speed at just a couple of steps.)

 

Edited December 9 by Rudra

[Seed22]

On 12/5/2024 at 7:38 PM, Psyonico said:

Also, turning the mez protection into an auto power

Thats already been done on sentinel. Not even in the same timeline as the word overpowered, and wouldn’t be on any other AT.

 

Also wouldn’t be done though because it was a PITA to code

[Gloomfall]

42 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Thats already been done on sentinel. Not even in the same timeline as the word overpowered, and wouldn’t be on any other AT.

 

Also wouldn’t be done though because it was a PITA to code

 

Sentinel also gets Enduring added to their power set for Super Reflexes.. and people aren't crying about that being overpowered. That gives Endurance Recovery and Damage Resistance to all damage except for Toxic.

 

I really don't get the doom and gloom that people seem to give any posts that touch on improvements to existing power sets..

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Thats already been done on sentinel. Not even in the same timeline as the word overpowered, and wouldn’t be on any other AT.

 

Also wouldn’t be done though because it was a PITA to code

Not quite.

 

The sentinel power adds mez protection to the toggles, its not auto.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Gloomfall said:

 

Sentinel also gets Enduring added to their power set for Super Reflexes.. and people aren't crying about that being overpowered. That gives Endurance Recovery and Damage Resistance to all damage except for Toxic.

 

I really don't get the doom and gloom that people seem to give any posts that touch on improvements to existing power sets..

People already refer to Super Reflexes as “immortal” on this forum… you’re either playing it wrong or not playing it.

[Seed22]

37 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Not quite.

 

The sentinel power adds mez protection to the toggles, its not auto.

You’re absolutely right, it’s a click absorb if I remember correctly, which if you’re thinking an auto mez power is bad, that should theoretically be way worse given the mitigation SR already has.

 

I want to add, I am not advocating it be nerfed or removed. I’m saying in this one instance, I wouldn’t be against that being adapted to any new def sets. SR as is is solid imo on other ATs, so I’m not thinking it exactly needs some of sent’s tools. 
 

But I do think those tools in sent SR should appear in other future def sets.( like water armor? 👀)

Edited December 9 by Seed22

[Enamel_32]

I like the suggestion of Lucky Dodge, I think it may be of more use than the passive scaling resistance since it's a front-loaded effect. I can only imagine you'd get one source of resistances or the other, not both.

[TheMoneyMaker]

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

Not really. You and the author want travel power endurance costs suppressed because you aren't getting the benefit of the travel power while in combat. So by the same token, why should you have to pay the endurance costs of your armor or aura toggles when you aren't getting any benefit from them outside of combat or against enemies they don't apply to? It's the same thing.

 

It is not the same thing. mez protection toggles are providing protection when they're on and that protection is at the ready for when a mez attack comes in.

 

Travel powers toggled on get suppressed not because of attack secondary effects such as being slowed, but just by the virtue of attacking or being attacked. You get reduced benefit from the power in speed being slowed down but the endurance cost doesn't change. I've seen you argue stuff before; you argue stuff just to argue so I'm not going to keep trying to convince you. Agree to disagree.

[Rudra]

47 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

It is not the same thing. mez protection toggles are providing protection when they're on and that protection is at the ready for when a mez attack comes in.

 

Travel powers toggled on get suppressed not because of attack secondary effects such as being slowed, but just by the virtue of attacking or being attacked. You get reduced benefit from the power in speed being slowed down but the endurance cost doesn't change. I've seen you argue stuff before; you argue stuff just to argue so I'm not going to keep trying to convince you. Agree to disagree.

And depending on the travel power, it also remains available. Flight powers have their speed drastically reduced, but you still remain airborne and can fight from max range. The power itself is not suppressed. Leaping powers are mildly affected, but you can still jump out of the fight far faster than you can fly out of it. Running powers are barely suppressed at all. Like I said, you can use Super Speed to run out of a fight at full speed shortly after you start moving. I even tested it on my level 50 Dominator last night to make sure. Walked into a group of Banished Pantheon in Dark Astoria, waited for them to start attacking me, threw some attacks but no mezzes at them, and then immediately ran off using Super Speed. It took my character maybe 6 steps total after I started moving, while still under attack, and then I was rocketing away at full speed. Those are still benefits you retain while those powers are active. And all that is ignoring the entire basis of your request that you should only have to pay for powers' endurance cost if they are providing you with a benefit, which anyone can extrapolate to any other toggle they want using that exact same reasoning. So on the basis of that claim, yes, they are the exact same thing.

[Owl Girl]

i for one wouldn't be upset if travel powers weren't suppressed in combat tho the stat boosts from, say, stealth or evasive maneuvers might be a bit powerful.

[stryve]

12 hours ago, Gloomfall said:

 

Sentinel also gets Enduring added to their power set for Super Reflexes.. and people aren't crying about that being overpowered. That gives Endurance Recovery and Damage Resistance to all damage except for Toxic.

 

I really don't get the doom and gloom that people seem to give any posts that touch on improvements to existing power sets..

A few things about Enduring on Sentinels.  First, Enduring grants Psionic DEF, Endurance Recovery, DDR, and scaling Damage Resistance (Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative Energy).  

 

Enduring replaces Lucky from SR on other Archetypes (except Stalkers, who swap Lucky with Hide), trading Auto AoE DEF for Auto Psionic DEF and Endurance Recovery (the loss of AoE DEF is added into Evasion, the AoE toggle, but that does mean if your toggles drop you loose all AoE DEF).  DDR and scaling Damage Resistance are both present in Lucky on other Archetypes.

 

The Psionic DEF does cover one of the holes built into SR, but the values are low enough it's not much of a difference even enhanced to ED cap.  Considering how rarely one encounters Psionic attacks with no Positional component, it's probably worth slotting DEF Enhancement for the increase to total DDR more than the Psionic DEF itself.

 

The Recovery increase is pretty great (30% boost base, compared to 25% from Stamina), and the lack of any built-in sustain is absolutely a weakness of SR on other Archetypes.