Shin Magmus Posted December 16 Posted December 16 2 minutes ago, Kistulot said: But City of Heroes, and the homecoming shards specifically, are important to me. I've told stories, made friends... it's been one wild ride and I've loved it. I want to keep on loving it for a long time. No you haven't made friends, nu uh. 2 Treating everyone fairly is great; unfair discrimination is badwrong! I do not believe the false notion that "your ignorance is just as good as my knowledge." The Definitive Empathy Rework
Kistulot Posted December 16 Author Posted December 16 Just now, Shin Magmus said: No you haven't made friends, nu uh. Troll 🖤 I'm going to (politely, and with due respect to your point) request not continuing posts like this juuuuuust to keep the talk going? But I want you to know you're seen, and appreciated. 🥰 1
Snarky Posted December 16 Posted December 16 3 hours ago, lemming said: I was on a different board that wound up having two people who were complete fiction. Pick an emotion, people had it about that. It's a great way to break trust. I don't feel the GMs and Devs are being dismissive. I'm in an industry where I have to clamp down on my emotional responses and still make some rather delicate decisions. It's not that I'm not being emotional about it, but in order to be fair, i have to keep it in check even when I have people yelling at me. It's obvious there's different opinions in the HC area as well, and they're talking and presumably taking some input from the forums (and discord I guess). I would take a tombstone while i am still here. Look, I run a vampire main for a number of connected convoluted issues. Most revolving around death and loss with a sidelong glance at the selfishness of human nature. I WIll NOT BE HERE WHEN I MEET THE FINAL DEATH. I would like my cookie now. 1
Super Atom Posted December 16 Posted December 16 I'm all for a vampire only radio mission in which you're trying to stop snarky from posting online, destructible PC objective. writes itself 1 2
Snarky Posted December 16 Posted December 16 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Super Atom said: I'm all for a vampire only radio mission in which you're trying to stop snarky from posting online, destructible PC objective. writes itself needs to be an alignment tip i think. and really any/all alignments should agree this needs to happen... most of the mobs zombies, a few wolves, and some bats (would be similar to bug clouds in creys folly, but bat aura animation) Edited December 16 by Snarky 1
Kistulot Posted December 16 Author Posted December 16 (edited) I'm going to drag things back a little bit here, if you'll forgive me doing so. The fact that long, carefully thought out posts, or even short responding to the community reps for HC that aren't smiling and nodding are not receiving reaction while what's being responded with is at best inconclusive is more my concern with this thread. I do take issue with the entire memorial system, but I'm going to keep getting private messages from people telling me why I shouldn't bother not for any reason that they feel I'm wrong... ...but because there is a fundamental trust issue with what counts for civil conversation and what is actually listened to and I continue to see more and more of why. Edit: I tried to write both "I'm continuing" and "I continue" at the same time and it lead to a horrible abomination against the English language. As a published author, sometimes a gal's gotta fix these things. The edited portion is in bold. Edited December 16 by Kistulot Grammar 1
Snarky Posted December 16 Posted December 16 2 minutes ago, Kistulot said: I do take issue with the entire memorial system, but I'm going to keep getting private messages from people telling me why I shouldn't bother not for any reason that they feel I'm wrong... ...but because there is a fundamental trust issue with what counts for civil conversation and what is actually listened to and I'm continue to see more and more of why. Look.... sigh. Changing an organization's policy on something as serious as this (any organization) would be difficult. I have watched (and Snarked at) the HC Crew for 5? years. To me, my opinion, the HC Crew works steadily, slowly, and tries to only put out stuff that is high quality and "right" There is NO WAY any number of posts, rabid, flaming, deliberate, concise, beautiful, or even genius will get the current HC staff to rush to some conclusion. Or even tip their hand about where they are going. My opinion. As far as the uncivil conversation. Sigh, it is the internet. I have tried (and probably failed) to address "grief posts" with respect when I encounter them. Not everyone on the planet even understands the depth of grief some folks feel. Some dont give a crap. And that is...hear me out... okay. Yes, we have to make room (a little) for people who cannot or will not "act respectfully" Maybe not a ton of room, but there is usually a gutter right beside old beautiful main street. Yes, it is definitely okay to call out rudeness. But do not swing too far in the other direction OR (very important) let the people starting a food fight interrupt the folks trying to plan memorial services. 1
Shin Magmus Posted December 16 Posted December 16 5 minutes ago, Snarky said: Look.... sigh. Changing an organization's policy on something as serious as this (any organization) would be difficult. I have watched (and Snarked at) the HC Crew for 5? years. To me, my opinion, the HC Crew works steadily, slowly, and tries to only put out stuff that is high quality and "right" There is NO WAY any number of posts, rabid, flaming, deliberate, concise, beautiful, or even genius will get the current HC staff to rush to some conclusion. Or even tip their hand about where they are going. My opinion. As far as the uncivil conversation. Sigh, it is the internet. I have tried (and probably failed) to address "grief posts" with respect when I encounter them. Not everyone on the planet even understands the depth of grief some folks feel. Some dont give a crap. And that is...hear me out... okay. Yes, we have to make room (a little) for people who cannot or will not "act respectfully" Maybe not a ton of room, but there is usually a gutter right beside old beautiful main street. Yes, it is definitely okay to call out rudeness. But do not swing too far in the other direction OR (very important) let the people starting a food fight interrupt the folks trying to plan memorial services. 5 more years! 5 more years! 1 Treating everyone fairly is great; unfair discrimination is badwrong! I do not believe the false notion that "your ignorance is just as good as my knowledge." The Definitive Empathy Rework
Kistulot Posted December 16 Author Posted December 16 2 minutes ago, Snarky said: Look.... sigh. Changing an organization's policy on something as serious as this (any organization) would be difficult. I have watched (and Snarked at) the HC Crew for 5? years. To me, my opinion, the HC Crew works steadily, slowly, and tries to only put out stuff that is high quality and "right" There is NO WAY any number of posts, rabid, flaming, deliberate, concise, beautiful, or even genius will get the current HC staff to rush to some conclusion. Or even tip their hand about where they are going. My opinion. It's a valid opinion from everything I've said 🙂 That said, I also don't see the value in going quiet personally. I get seeing it as pointless to do more than speak your peace and move on, but that's not where I stand! That said, you've got a damn fine point. 4 minutes ago, Snarky said: As far as the uncivil conversation. Sigh, it is the internet. I have tried (and probably failed) to address "grief posts" with respect when I encounter them. Not everyone on the planet even understands the depth of grief some folks feel. Some dont give a crap. And that is...hear me out... okay. Yes, we have to make room (a little) for people who cannot or will not "act respectfully" Maybe not a ton of room, but there is usually a gutter right beside old beautiful main street. Yes, it is definitely okay to call out rudeness. But do not swing too far in the other direction OR (very important) let the people starting a food fight interrupt the folks trying to plan memorial services. It is the internet, but I feel like the REASON it becomes like that is because people accept it. If someone is rude, abusive, nasty, unhelpful, etc... I've administrated forums. I still administrate discords. There are tools to solve these problems. There are helpful, and unhelpful, ways to address community strife. I don't feel like we really need to make room for people who are making a place unpleasant. I feel like at a certain point you show them the door. Who you show the door, how you show them the door, and when, says a lot about the values of a community. Choosing not to do so is a choice that can, unfortunately, show a lot. 2
Game Master GM_GooglyMoogly Posted December 16 Game Master Posted December 16 (edited) Again, please stop the personal attacks and just address the topic respectfully. Oh, and stay on topic please. Edited December 16 by GM_GooglyMoogly 2
Kistulot Posted December 16 Author Posted December 16 12 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said: Again, please stop the personal attacks and just address the topic respectfully. My response was directly addressing the topic. I appreciate that the post was removed, but it does nothing to address the fact that, yes, that behavior is being encouraged when all that happens is the exact post is deleted and it's treated as though it's just a spot to sigh and go "c'mon, be better than this." Effectively that just means it's going to keep happening, and continue to disrupt conversations and lead to no one being happy. At some point, a choice has to be made about what kind of community you want to be moderating, and not making one is a choice. 11 minutes ago, ScarySai said: Did I miss something? Seemed fine in here as of 10 minutes ago. Anyway, it's telling that someone like Kitsu has basically never used the forums and yet is able to instantly identify the problem people. Interesting, isn't it? You did. I'd reiterate, but I think that would get me censured. Sincerely, I went into this expecting that, y'know, people would be pretty open minded to a situation like the one I brought up. Not really feeling great about that at the moment, not gonna lie. 1
Game Master GM_GooglyMoogly Posted December 16 Game Master Posted December 16 3 minutes ago, Kistulot said: My response was directly addressing the topic. If you quote a moderated post, that post also gets moderated. 1
Shin Magmus Posted December 16 Posted December 16 19 minutes ago, ScarySai said: Just now, GM_GooglyMoogly said: If you quote a moderated post, that post also gets moderated. Everything in moderation. (Get it?) 2 Treating everyone fairly is great; unfair discrimination is badwrong! I do not believe the false notion that "your ignorance is just as good as my knowledge." The Definitive Empathy Rework
Kistulot Posted December 16 Author Posted December 16 5 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said: If you quote a moderated post, that post also gets moderated. That? Fair. It is kind of difficult then to discuss the issues in said posts, but I'm betting that's a software thing... 1
Kistulot Posted December 16 Author Posted December 16 4 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said: Everything in moderation. (Get it?) While I appreciate the levity (and goddess knows I do) it maaaaay be counter productive 🙂
Kistulot Posted December 16 Author Posted December 16 Seeing that Scary Sai's post is no longer there, and I find myself asking why. 1
Kistulot Posted December 17 Author Posted December 17 I don't even know what to say. The way all of this has gone is leaving me massively disillusioned. When people try to show they care and you show them why you shouldn't... people stop trying. 1
arcane Posted December 17 Posted December 17 1 minute ago, Kistulot said: I don't even know what to say. The way all of this has gone is leaving me massively disillusioned. When people try to show they care and you show them why you shouldn't... people stop trying. Couldn’t agree more 1 1
Kistulot Posted December 17 Author Posted December 17 (edited) 1 minute ago, arcane said: Couldn’t agree more Really? Edited December 17 by Kistulot Punctuation altered to clarify point.
arcane Posted December 17 Posted December 17 1 minute ago, Kistulot said: Really? What choice do we have but to stop caring and stop trying? When the GM’s response is “X person is going to insult you and shit on you. It’s all on you to not engage!” Of course I feel as hopeless as you do. 1
Kistulot Posted December 17 Author Posted December 17 1 minute ago, arcane said: What choice do we have but to stop caring and stop trying? When the GM’s response is “X person is going to insult you and shit on you. It’s all on you to not engage!” Of course I feel as hopeless as you do. Honestly, y'know what? This? Proves my point in a beautiful way. I don't think that we could disagree with each other more about a lot of things... but we both think this sucks. 1
Excraft Posted December 17 Posted December 17 2 hours ago, Kistulot said: So, let's say that you make something for someone else's benefit. Let's say that they then ask for something. They see it's been done before, for other people, but you insist to not play favorites, you wont be doing it anymore. I uh. yeah, I'm sorry, there's flaws here. HC could do that, but they haven't, and while they don't, it should be treated as what it is. This proceeds from a false assumption that everything HC does is for us and not for them or for their own enjoyment. 2 hours ago, Kistulot said: It really feels like whenever someone wants to dismiss the idea that someone thinks something is a good idea or naturally flows from the circumstances they're called entitled. It's like people who say other people are entitled think they're entitled to pretend that no circumstances exist outside of the small bit they're nitpicking. I don't think you making the request makes you entitled. Your overflow of posts and threads campaigning for something that isn't going to happen in an attempt to bully and guilt HC into adding a NPC of your friend into the game is what makes you come across as entitled. You asked and got a GM and Council member response. The response isn't what you wanted to hear, so you're going on the offensive to try and badger HC into a result that you want. I know you're trying to hide behind "I'm doing this for the community", but it's not coming across that way. Also, I'm not dismissing your idea. As I've said before, I think there should be a way for everyone to memorialize a friend or loved one here, but that shouldn't be everyone getting a NPC in the game. There was a thread linked in one of the other discussions requesting @Heracleagetting added to the game in Cimerora after he passed. I don't recall anyone in that thread complaining about the lack of HC response, or suggesting how unfair it was that the request wasn't acted upon favorably, or that it has to be done because it was done before, so that's only fair. They made their request, let HC consider it, then moved on. No complaining, no flood of posts. Nothing. They understood the request wasn't approved and respected that decision. 2 hours ago, ScarySai said: The whole "volunteer" line gets tiring when used as some sort of 'gotcha'. Is HC maintained by volunteers? Yes. Does that mean they can do whatever they want without any criticism or retaliation? No. Good will buys you a lot of leeway, but said good will can also be burned. We are not entitled to anything simply by donating, but HC isn't entitled to an echo chamber either. Remember: HC is only the most popular server because it was first. You can't claim to be all about the community but neglect it and hide behind the 'volunteer' defense when you screw up. It's not a "gotcha", it's the simple truth. Yes, HC is maintained by volunteers. Yes, that means they can do whatever they want whenever they want for whatever reason they want. Can you criticize them for their decisions? Sure. That doesn't mean they have to take your suggestions or criticisms and make changes you're demanding because you want them to. Ultimately, if you don't like how things are run here, there are plenty of other servers to try out. I'm not saying that to be mean, it's the simple truth. HC has never asked for an echo chamber, nor do I believe they feel they're entitled to one. I think they're doing the best they can with what they have in the free time they have. They're never going to be able to please everyone, and I'll be honest here, I don't think they should even try. I'd rather they work on what is important to them, what they feel like working on and what gives them the most satisfaction. Getting pressured to deliver on what others are demanding of them starts making a passion project into a job, and that's not a good thing. Is everyone going to always align with and like changes being made? Of course not. That's never going to happen. 2 hours ago, ScarySai said: This situation was handled extremely poorly and is hopefully a learning experience. I'm sorry, but I disagree. I don't think it was handled poorly. You all got more "official" response than others ever did. Again, other request threads for memorials have been made before, and no one went nuts screaming and complaining about lapses in communication or favoritism or precedence or whatever. That entitlement seems to be unique to these threads here. I really am sorry you all lost someone you cared about and I'm sorry that HC isn't going to deliver what you wanted here. Criticizing HC for not doing what you want them to do isn't good either. 3 1
ScarySai Posted December 17 Posted December 17 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Excraft said: Your overflow of posts and threads campaigning for something that isn't going to happen in an attempt to bully and guilt HC into adding a NPC That's not at all what happened. Being told "no" isn't the issue here. And uh, frankly, I don't care if you disagree. It's an objectively bad look and Cipher even acknowledged that. Edited December 17 by ScarySai 1 2
Excraft Posted December 17 Posted December 17 2 minutes ago, ScarySai said: That's not at all what happened. Being told "no" isn't the issue here. It certainly reads that way to me, I'm sorry to say.
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