Random Presence Pool + Invention Enhancement Thought

[Snarky]

Half baked.  Unworkable. 
 

nice of you to self diagnose though.  
 

cheers

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Genuinely curious how KB2KD works. My best guess is that it floors the knockback distance aspect.

It reduces the KB magnitude of the power to 0.67. At 0.67 magnitude, the target does not get moved anywhere, just knocked down.

 

3 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

In our placate PROC, we could try reducing the magnitude or duration to such insanely low levels that it's only active for a single frame.

It does not matter how much you reduce the magnitude or duration of a taunt power. It still does not pacify the target. Placate and Taunt effects are not related to each other, they are completely different statuses.

[megaericzero]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It reduces the KB magnitude of the power to 0.67. At 0.67 magnitude, the target does not get moved anywhere, just knocked down.

 

So we... use it to reduce the taunt to 0.01 magnitude?

 

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It does not matter how much you reduce the magnitude or duration of a taunt power. It still does not pacify the target. Placate and Taunt effects are not related to each other, they are completely different statuses.

Right. You would reduce the taunt and add a placate PROC. Unless you're saying an enhancement can't have two unique effects because coding reasons, which is fair. Last I remember, though, at least one of the KB2KD is "knockback to knockdown AND adds knockdown if the power doesn't have it."

 

On a different note, I genuinely appreciate the discussion - Luminara, Rudra, FupDup, Super Atom, Snarky. Even though I'm arguing some, I still think it's as a constructive back-and-forth.

Edited 22 hours ago by megaericzero

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Unless you're saying an enhancement can't have two unique effects because coding reasons, which is fair.

No, that isn't what I am saying.

 

13 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

You would reduce the taunt and add a placate PROC.

A proc that applies a placate effect. Okay, I understand. Is it a ST effect or an AoE effect? You would also need to reduce the taunt's duration because the taunt will apply before the proc so I'm betting granting protection won't do anything because protection prevents you from being affected up to a certain magnitude but not how long you are affected. And since the target will be affected before the proc affects him/her/them/it, protection won't matter because the character is already being taunted for the power's duration. That means the proc would have to include a power that grants the target some ridiculously high status resistance to taunt effects, and that would then make those targets effectively immune to friends/team mates that try to taunt the target into going after them as well.

 

Edit: And even if you reduce the taunt's magnitude, unless the target has taunt protection, the magnitude doesn't matter.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Rudra

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

A proc that applies a placate effect. Okay, I understand. Is it a ST effect or an AoE effect? You would also need to reduce the taunt's duration because the taunt will apply before the proc so I'm betting granting protection won't do anything because protection prevents you from being affected up to a certain magnitude but not how long you are affected. And since the target will be affected before the proc affects him/her/them/it, protection won't matter because the character is already being taunted for the power's duration. That means the proc would have to include a power that grants the target some ridiculously high status resistance to taunt effects, and that would then make those targets effectively immune to friends/team mates that try to taunt the target into going after them as well.

 

Edit: And even if you reduce the taunt's magnitude, unless the target has taunt protection, the magnitude doesn't matter.

For the placate portion, single-target. We're just looking to recreate Pacify in some capacity.

 

For the taunt portion, I'm confused. Assuming KB2KD reduces mag, we just crank taunt down to either 0.01 or 0.00 depending on which is possible. If it can't be true zero, there's still concern that any nonzero value would still accidentally taunt the target since mobs don't ubiquitously have any taunt protection, so for that we apply another "anti-enhancement" to floor the duration of the taunt. Alternatively, if KB2KD doesn't reduce mag but instead reduces distance - and assuming that that's considered the equivalent to other mezzes' duration, we set the taunt to 0.01s duration. After that, we have the placate apply after some arbitrary delay so it activates after the taunt wore off.

 

EDIT: Wait... can PROCs have a delay or do they all activate the instant the power rolls the dice? But, also, is there something wrong with like 1ms taunt overlapping placate? Does it cancel the placate?

 

--

 

EDIT 2: Oh god I didn't think about taunt auras! Forget Blazing Aura or Mud Pots - they'll just nix it by doing damage - but having Invincibility, Rise to the Challenge, or Against All Odds periodically roll placate on nearby foes. I'm both concerned and morbidly curious. And Stalkers would ironically miss out since they can't have taunt auras.

Edited 20 hours ago by megaericzero

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

Alternatively, if KB2KD doesn't reduce mag but instead reduces distance

I told you, procs that change KB to KD do so by reducing the magnitude of the KB effect to 0.67, at which point the KB is still taking effect, but there is no distance because of how low the magnitude is, resulting in a KD effect. That is how KB works. Below a certain threshold, KB is KD. (Edit: KB distance is determined by the KB's magnitude after any resistances.)

 

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

we just crank taunt down to either 0.01 or 0.00 depending on which is possible. If it can't be true zero, there's still concern that any nonzero value would still accidentally taunt the target since mobs don't ubiquitously have any taunt protection,

I'm not going state if 0 magnitude from whatever the power's magnitude is originally is possible, because I don't know. That's a dev question.

 

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

so for that we apply another "anti-enhancement" to floor the duration of the taunt.

Neither am I going to say if it is possible or not to reduce a power's duration by enhancement. That is a dev question as well, though it would require the devs add to the code for power duration if you insist on not going the resistance route. Otherwise you will need to have a power in the proc that grants the target sufficient status resistance to effectively negate the taunt, which will apply to any and every taunt that anyone may apply to the target in that window of application, keeping in mind that the placate effect only applies for the user.

 

Regardless, you are still talking about taking away a power I am using, requiring me to respec to get a different power, and then dedicate an extra enhancement slot to that power to maintain the enhancements I have in it plus another to convert the taunt to a placate effect. (Edit again: Hells, it would require me to respec because the power I have no longer exists as far as the game is concerned, so my character would be rendered invalid.) So I still oppose the OP. (Edit yet again: So the OP boils down to a forced respec on players already using the Presence pool for no benefit to the game, changing a pool in a manner that as already stated will not entice more players into taking the set but may cause players using the set to abandon it or at the very least have to completely re-consider and re-make their builds to free up enhancement slots to get the same powers they already have via enhancements that their existing powers already give them, and adding more complexity to the game's mechanics/code for no reason other than to make change itself.)

 

 

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

Wait... can PROCs have a delay or do they all activate the instant the power rolls the dice?

To the best of my understanding, they check to see if they trigger when you activate the power, and then apply their effect. Some look like they apply their proc before the power fires, but they don't. (Edit: Though making a proc delay its effect shouldn't be any different than making a power delay its effect, and that already happens.)

 

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

But, also, is there something wrong with like 1ms taunt overlapping placate? Does it cancel the placate?

Placates are neutralized by affecting the enemy with a power that notifies the enemy. So if they fire at the same time, assuming the game doesn't get confused, the placate dies as the taunt notifies the enemy. Just like when slotting a damage proc into Pacify, you pacify the enemy and the enemy keeps attacking you because you broke the placate effect.

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Rudra

[Shin Magmus]

It took 2 seconds for someone to argue against your suggestion and say that they like the bad power or the bad way something currently is, and that improving it will hurt their build.  Beanbag moment, beanbag thread.

[Frozen Burn]

I am against this idea entirely.  I have toons that use Placate, and others that use Provoke, so I like having both of these powers in the set.  We do not need to rework the set to try and put a new 5th power in there that people might want to use.  Pool Power sets are meant to have their powers picked and chosen from to enhance your build. 

 

If you're trying to take all the powers in the set, you might be gimping yourself elsewhere in your build - it is perfectly acceptable to have a couple skippable powers in a Pool set.  And I mean "skippable" by one toon my skip some powers while another may take them and skip others. 

 

So, it is perfectly fine for a set to have 2 powers that work in opposition of one another (Pacify and Provoke) as the set needs to cater to all and NOT just some while leaving the others to HAVE to use a certain IO proc to turn a power into something different.

[Rudra]

10 hours ago, megaericzero said:

ut having Invincibility, Rise to the Challenge, or Against All Odds periodically roll placate on nearby foes.

RttC notifies mobs. So does Against All Odds and Invulnerability.

[megaericzero]

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

I told you, procs that change KB to KD do so by reducing the magnitude of the KB effect to 0.67, at which point the KB is still taking effect, but there is no distance because of how low the magnitude is, resulting in a KD effect. That is how KB works. Below a certain threshold, KB is KD. (Edit: KB distance is determined by the KB's magnitude after any resistances.)

I am aware that knockback that succeeds but is below a certain threshold is knockdown and that 0.67 is the golden number often used for powers sold as knockdown by default. I was unaware about the relationship between distance and magnitude, though. The reason I assumed knockback distance was the equivalent of its duration stat is that no other mez has distance but knockback has no duration yet all other mez enhancements only increase their duration, and - at least in my experience - knockback enhancements don't appear to increase magnitude or else slotting it would make it easier to knock down bosses and enemies with knockback protection. So, sure, we wrap back around to "just floor the magnitude" then.

 

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

though it would require the devs add to the code for power duration if you insist on not going the resistance route. Otherwise you will need to have a power in the proc that grants the target sufficient status resistance to effectively negate the taunt, which will apply to any and every taunt that anyone may apply to the target in that window of application, keeping in mind that the placate effect only applies for the user.

Whether or not negative-value enhancements are possible is certainly a dev question. It may depend on whether or not the values are signed or unsigned integers.

We definitely want to avoid the solution of granting any protection or resistance to the target to compensate the original power effect because that can disrupt other taunts occurring at the same time, hence my focus throughout the thread on nerfing the slotted power itself instead of ever buffing the target.

 

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

Regardless, you are still talking about taking away a power I am using, requiring me to respec to get a different power, and then dedicate an extra enhancement slot to that power to maintain the enhancements I have in it plus another to convert the taunt to a placate effect. (Edit again: Hells, it would require me to respec because the power I have no longer exists as far as the game is concerned, so my character would be rendered invalid.) So I still oppose the OP.

As far as invalid builds - to the best of my knowledge - your character would keep the power but could not respec without having to replace it, since we're plucking it out of the set rather than overwriting it.

 

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

(Edit yet again: So the OP boils down to a forced respec on players already using the Presence pool for no benefit to the game, changing a pool in a manner that as already stated will not entice more players into taking the set but may cause players using the set to abandon it or at the very least have to completely re-consider and re-make their builds to free up enhancement slots to get the same powers they already have via enhancements that their existing powers already give them, and adding more complexity to the game's mechanics/code for no reason other than to make change itself.)

In order (separated by semicolons): there are benefits whether you denounce them or not, such as giving players the option for single-target taunt in a pool while maintaining the ability to make it AOE; it would entice the people who have asked for pool confuse or Intimidate/Invoke Panic without having to take a taunt or placate; reconsidering slotting depends on if you already slot Pacify and/or if you take both Pacify and Provoke as of current; I've addressed how to try working this in given what currently exists but, of course, suggesting basically anything falls into SCR territory, and for the "no reason" refer back to the "no benefit" section.

 

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

To the best of my understanding, they check to see if they trigger when you activate the power, and then apply their effect. Some look like they apply their proc before the power fires, but they don't. (Edit: Though making a proc delay its effect shouldn't be any different than making a power delay its effect, and that already happens.)

 

Alright. I always see things like the tesla cage from whichever ranged PROC does hold fire off the instant I press the power so I wasn't sure if the effect was too, and if that was true of all PROCs, or not.

 

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

Placates are neutralized by affecting the enemy with a power that notifies the enemy. So if they fire at the same time, assuming the game doesn't get confused, the placate dies as the taunt notifies the enemy. Just like when slotting a damage proc into Pacify, you pacify the enemy and the enemy keeps attacking you because you broke the placate effect.

Is it actually wiped-out by non-damaging notifications, though, or just suppressed/ignored?

 

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

RttC notifies mobs. So does Against All Odds and Invulnerability.

Via taunt, right? Or are we talking about the power stat "notifies mobs"? In the case of the latter, it doesn't seem like that would sufficiently interrupt a placate, since lots of powers - including single-target - notify nearby mobs without breaking placate as long as you don't lay a finger on the placated foe.

[Rudra]

54 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

Is it actually wiped-out by non-damaging notifications, though, or just suppressed/ignored?

It goes away. Like a sleep effect when someone damages the target. I've never seen an enemy that I placated and then damaged by any means resume being placated for any part of the remaining 8 seconds. A placated enemy that is notified via any of your powers of your presence is no longer placated.

 

54 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Via taunt, right? Or are we talking about the power stat "notifies mobs"? In the case of the latter, it doesn't seem like that would sufficiently interrupt a placate, since lots of powers - including single-target - notify nearby mobs without breaking placate as long as you don't lay a finger on the placated foe.

Via the power itself. Yes, its "notifies mobs" part. And you are talking about constantly being applied toggle effects. As I said earlier in this post, I have never seen any enemy I placated that I affected with a power that notifies them, typically an attack, that stayed placated. So I would like to know what powers that notify mobs don't break placate in your experience.

 

Edit:

  

54 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

(Edit yet again: So the OP boils down to a forced respec on players already using the Presence pool for no benefit to the game, changing a pool in a manner that as already stated will not entice more players into taking the set but may cause players using the set to abandon it or at the very least have to completely re-consider and re-make their builds to free up enhancement slots to get the same powers they already have via enhancements that their existing powers already give them, and adding more complexity to the game's mechanics/code for no reason other than to make change itself.)

In order (separated by semicolons): there are benefits whether you denounce them or not, such as giving players the option for single-target taunt in a pool while maintaining the ability to make it AOE; it would entice the people who have asked for pool confuse or Intimidate/Invoke Panic without having to take a taunt or placate; reconsidering slotting depends on if you already slot Pacify and/or if you take both Pacify and Provoke as of current; I've addressed how to try working this in given what currently exists but, of course, suggesting basically anything falls into SCR territory, and for the "no reason" refer back to the "no benefit" section.

Then please explain the benefits and the reason. Because what you have stated as benefits so far are not to me. They are intentional nerfs to my characters and any future characters I make (which I routinely do) that may want to use the current abilities without having to sacrifice something to get back current functionality. And I have asked you for a reason for the proposed change many times in this thread and you have yet to give one that actually says why the proposed change should be done. (Edit again: Why should players like me already using the Presence pool have to change their characters and their play style to accommodate this proposal? Why should players be forced to change how they approach the game for this proposal?)

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Rudra

[megaericzero]

  

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

It goes away. Like a sleep effect when someone damages the target. I've never seen an enemy that I placated and then damaged by any means resume being placated for any part of the remaining 8 seconds. A placated enemy that is notified via any of your powers of your presence is no longer placated.

By damage, sure. I was unaware whether non-damaging effects - mostly debuffs - actively removed it or not. For instance, hitting them with Surveillance after Placate since it does no damage but does reduce defense/resistance. Never actually tested it.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Via the power itself. Yes, its "notifies mobs" part. And you are talking about constantly being applied toggle effects. As I said earlier in this post, I have never seen any enemy I placated that I affected with a power that notifies them, typically an attack, that stayed placated. So I would like to know what powers that notify mobs don't break placate in your experience.

Right. What I was asking is the distinction if you're referring to the PBAOE taunt that's built-into those powers, or this flag which is almost always on in enemy-affecting powers except in rare cases like Mind Control's confuses:

Because that tag seems to make powers - even single-target ones - notify all mobs that you're there if they were unaware before but I've never seen it break Stalkers' placate unless you cause damage to the placated target. (eg: Placate a Hellion minion and start punching his boss. All my attacks have "Notify Mobs: Always" and any others nearby will be made aware of my presence but the minion I placated doesn't lose its placate as long as I don't hurt him.)

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Then please explain the benefits and the reason. Because what you have stated as benefits so far are not to me.

see:

2 hours ago, megaericzero said:

there are benefits whether you denounce them or not

 

--

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

And I have asked you for a reason for the proposed change many times in this thread and you have yet to give one that actually says why the proposed change should be done.

I've given several. In the OP alone:

21 hours ago, megaericzero said:

1) try and accommodate the people who want Presence reworked

2) integrate the use of IOs to help with the changes to Presence while also expanding the precedence of IOs giving options to slightly alter effects at the cost of a slot (eg: KB2KD)

22 hours ago, megaericzero said:

(Intimidate now no longer requires a prior power pick; Invoke Panic only requires one prior power pick)

22 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Group Insult [...] can also be slotted by Scrappers to turn Confront into Provoke+)

22 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Failed Mockery

 [...] effectively turns Challenge or Confront into Pacify)

22 hours ago, megaericzero said:

this could be the precedence for more "sacrifice a slot for a unique/modified effect" type IOs.

 

 

[Rudra]

38 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Right. What I was asking is the distinction if you're referring to the PBAOE taunt that's built-into those powers, or this flag which is almost always on in enemy-affecting powers except in rare cases like Mind Control's confuses:

Because that tag seems to make powers - even single-target ones - notify all mobs that you're there if they were unaware before but I've never seen it break Stalkers' placate unless you cause damage to the placated target. (eg: Placate a Hellion minion and start punching his boss. All my attacks have "Notify Mobs: Always" and any others nearby will be made aware of my presence but the minion I placated doesn't lose its placate as long as I don't hurt him.)

I see the misunderstanding. I am specifically referring to the placated mob, not anything else. If the placated mob is affected by something that notifies the mob of your presence, the placate is broken. Confuses are odd ducks in that even if a mob knows you are there while confused, the mob will not react to you. So it is not the taunt itself in those auras, it is that those powers notify mobs you are there and affecting them with your aura. So if a placate proc were to be slotted in say RttC, and that proc placated an enemy, that enemy would keep attacking you because the toggled aura is constantly affecting the target mob(s) every assigned increment of time.

 

42 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

1) try and accommodate the people who want Presence reworked

Is not a reason to take something away from players like me. Trying to make a power set fit with a specific group of players that decry anything that doesn't fit their preferred play style (the current meta) at the expense of players already using said pool is not a good reason in my book. If you were trying to make the pool more appealing to others without stepping on other players like me, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

44 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

2) integrate the use of IOs to help with the changes to Presence while also expanding the precedence of IOs giving options to slightly alter effects at the cost of a slot (eg: KB2KD)

Can be done without taking powers I am personally using in the game and that others are using in the game away from them. So still not a reason for the proposal.

 

45 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

(Intimidate now no longer requires a prior power pick; Invoke Panic only requires one prior power pick)

Has been pitched by players like @Luminara without stepping on players like me already using the pool. SO that doesn't really hold up as a reason for the OP either.

 

45 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

22 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Group Insult [...] can also be slotted by Scrappers to turn Confront into Provoke+)

Has its own problems that you do not want to address because of the multiple Brute discussions elsewhere. (And which I am willing to bet will never happen because of it.)

 

46 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

22 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Failed Mockery

 [...] effectively turns Challenge or Confront into Pacify)

Which is still done at the expense of players like me that are already using the Presence pool by requiring us to have to devote an extra enhancement slot to get back a function we already have without that enhancement for the sole stated purpose of imposing an enhancement tax. And intentionally imposing an enhancement tax on players to get back what we already have is not exactly a solid reason to pitch things.

 

48 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

22 hours ago, megaericzero said:

this could be the precedence for more "sacrifice a slot for a unique/modified effect" type IOs.

Which can be done without stepping on players like me by taking away powers we already have and are using. You can still propose procs that don't exist in the game and propose enhancement sets without taking things away from the players happily making use of things currently available in the game. So that is still not a reason for the OP.

 

Why should players playing the game right now be required to change how they play the game is the reason I am asking for. Why should something that already exists in the game simply be removed is my question. And saying that a desired author created enhancement tax would be available to restore that function is not an excuse to remove powers from players using it. Because you are still imposing something on the players they don't have to do right now in the game, devote an extra enhancement to a power to get a power's function they are currently using without having to slot an enhancement to get.

[megaericzero]

54 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I see the misunderstanding. I am specifically referring to the placated mob, not anything else. If the placated mob is affected by something that notifies the mob of your presence, the placate is broken. Confuses are odd ducks in that even if a mob knows you are there while confused, the mob will not react to you. So it is not the taunt itself in those auras, it is that those powers notify mobs you are there and affecting them with your aura. So if a placate proc were to be slotted in say RttC, and that proc placated an enemy, that enemy would keep attacking you because the toggled aura is constantly affecting the target mob(s) every assigned increment of time.

 

The misunderstanding was much the opposite. I knew we were talking about the placated mob. I was saying I was unsure that being tagged "notify mobs: always" broke placation outright, since I've only ever seen damage break it, which would mean non-damaging powers (RTTC, Invin, AAO) would not. (I'm not in a place where I can test that right now by trying Placate + Surveillance with my spider to test if non-damaging debuffs break placate.)

 

If it is the case that simply notifying the mobs breaks placate, that's fine. Better, actually, because the reason I brought it up was the fear I accidentally opened up the door to create "placate auras," which we probably don't want.

 

58 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Trying to make a power set fit with a specific group of players that decry anything that doesn't fit their preferred play style (the current meta) at the expense of players already using said pool is not a good reason in my book.

Is there a meta built around Presence? Genuine question - I've only ever taken Unrelenting on one character. I thought it was much more about Hasten, CJ, and Tough/Weave.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Has its own problems that you do not want to address because of the multiple Brute discussions elsewhere. (And which I am willing to bet will never happen because of it.)

*shrug* I gave my two cents on Brutes. I see your bullet points on their issues in the same light as you see my bullet points on the benefits of this suggestion.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

requiring us to have to devote an extra enhancement slot to get back a function we already have without that enhancement

What do you have slotted? Is it for set bonuses or to actually improve the power? Not theoretically; practically.

 

I've always treated it as a one-slot wonder but I am guessing you're using it for something related to Mocking Beratement or Triumphant Insult?

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Why should something that already exists in the game simply be removed is my question.

I've asked myself that before.

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Is there a meta built around Presence? Genuine question - I've only ever taken Unrelenting on one character. I thought it was much more about Hasten, CJ, and Tough/Weave.

The meta revolves around doing as much damage in as little time as possible, often via damage procs. It decries powers that don't let them do so as being "bad", "useless", "worthless" or in need of replacing. Like the Presence pool since it does not contribute to the player being able to maximize damage output. So no, there is no meta that involves the Presence pool. Instead, the meta wants the pool to die in oblivion and be replaced "with better powers".

 

22 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

requiring us to have to devote an extra enhancement slot to get back a function we already have without that enhancement

What do you have slotted? Is it for set bonuses or to actually improve the power? Not theoretically; practically.

Accuracy, recharge, and taunt/placate duration in Pacify. As an HO if I can get it. I do not slot sets into Pacify.

 

25 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

I've asked myself that before.

I was there for that debate. I even participated in that debate. And as much as I hate to say it, the ones pushing for Challenge to be replaced had it right. Yes, I loved being able to choose to draw out a single target or a group as I saw fit, but even after Challenge was removed, players like me could still draw out single targets, just with our epic snipe power or our prestige power. And we did still have Provoke. And as @Luminara said, using a loss we opposed is not a good reason to impose such a loss on others for other sets. If anything, it reeks of sheer pettiness. An "I lost something I liked so others should have to suffer the same" feeling. The difference between losing Challenge in favor of Pacify as opposed to losing Pacify and Provoke to bring back Challenge plus some enhancements that if possible will give us back Pacify and Provoke's functions? Is that when we lost Challenge, we still had our taunt available in Provoke with no other requirements and the ability to selectively draw single targets out of a room with a ranged ST attack, whereas you are asking to take away powers with no recourse for achieving the same thing we already have except by having to take a power you prefer to have back with added requirements of needing more enhancement slots than players are already using with no other recourse. Not exactly a comparable situation.

[megaericzero]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Instead, the meta wants the pool to die in oblivion and be replaced "with better powers".

I wasn't suggesting damaging powers so...

Unless you consider pool-quality confuse to be a significant DPS boost I guess.

 

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And as much as I hate to say it, the ones pushing for Challenge to be replaced had it right.

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And as @Luminara said, using a loss we opposed is not a good reason to impose such a loss on others for other sets. If anything, it reeks of sheer pettiness.

History is certainly written by the winners.

 

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

An "I lost something I liked so others should have to suffer the same" feeling.

FWIW, and I understand if you don't believe me, the suggested change wasn't born of a desire for revenge. My response that it happened to Challenge is to point out it's not solid to say we can't replace a power when the power we're talking about replaced a power. The actual suggestion to turn it into a PROC was purely trying to add more functionality to Presence. Yes, by compartmentalizing, because I was avoiding: giving Intimidate special treatment by making it a third no-prereq choice; giving Provoke special treatment that it should give Challenge for free; and we know the devs don't want any more either-ors.

 

The most - seemingly only ubiquitously - contentious part of the suggestion in the OP seems to be the loss of Pacify itself. Since we're about to circle the drain on that part, I'm just going to drop it.

 

What about (and forget everything in the OP in regards to this next part):
- a threat set that adds Chance to Confuse*

- a threat set that throttles AOE taunt to ST taunt

 

* themed as a placate tricking someone into doing a temporary heel-turn, which is awkward because threat was formerly taunt so everything is themed as insulting someone, but now that it's a shared category with placate it shouldn't be any more awkward giving placate something themed properly for itself

 

Now, we have no issues involving touching Pacify or Provoke, Provoke can become Challenge, and we "added" the confuse power with it taking on the slot tax to exist. (Now I have concerns with taunt creating a conflicting "confused but taunted", which might accidentally work as a pseudo-stun, and of course Tankers/Brutes could accidentally nerf their Taunt or aura.)

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

59 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Instead, the meta wants the pool to die in oblivion and be replaced "with better powers".

I wasn't suggesting damaging powers so...

Unless you consider pool-quality confuse to be a significant DPS boost I guess.

You asked about the meta. So I answered about the meta. I'm not saying you are asking for a DPS boost.

 

20 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

FWIW, and I understand if you don't believe me, the suggested change wasn't born of a desire for revenge.

I never said your proposal was born of revenge. What I said/am saying is that using Challenge's removal as justification feels like it.

 

20 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

- a threat set that adds Chance to Confuse*

I don't care. If the devs like that idea, they will implement it. And I may or may not use it depending on my character.

 

20 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

a threat set that throttles AOE taunt to ST taunt

That's niche, but being niche itself isn't bad. So while I wouldn't use it, I'm perfectly fine if others choose to and the devs decide to make it.

 

20 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Now, we have no issues involving touching Pacify or Provoke, Provoke can become Challenge, and we "added" the confuse power with it taking on the slot tax to exist. (Now I have concerns with taunt creating a conflicting "confused but taunted", which might accidentally work as a pseudo-stun, and of course Tankers/Brutes could accidentally nerf their Taunt or aura.)

I thank you for looking into something that suits everyone's purposes. As far as confusion versus taunted, my guess would be that the mob would be confused since the mob would view us as friendlies. If anyone has the appropriate powers to check, they can confuse an enemy and then be in range for their taunt aura to possibly affect the confused enemy and see what happens. My best guess would be the taunt wouldn't affect the confused mob. (Edit: Which would probably make those auras OP....)

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Rudra