Exploring the Depths of Villainy - Which Groups Are the Most Evil?

[VeiledOwl]

I would like to nominate Primal Earth's Lord Nemesis for one of his lesser well known atrocities: The Neurophagic Disruptor. 70% of a world (mostly of African descent) wiped out just so he could set up an outpost.

[lemming]

And for contacts, not much more evil than Westin Phipps

[Go0gleplex]

Looking up both Facism and Nazism, I'd say that such labels are not really limited to just the WW II throwbacks but can actually be applied to several of the various villain groups in some aspects such as Rikti, Nemesis, Arachnos, Malta, Tsoo, and even Devouring Earth/Hamidon. Not going to bring in IRL stuff since such a topic already skirts the proverbial minefield.  So while definitely an evil I can't really see it as such a limited scope applied to just 5th/Council organizations nor rate it, being merely a political/ethical evil, as higher than something that affects the existential well being of life on a more esoteric level of existence which run the risk of being ELE level threats. 

[Andreah]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

I dunno... It's hard to think of anyone being more evil than those who literally harvest people's organs/bodies.  I could be misremembering, but do the CoT use those with Oranbegan ancestry as vessels for possession by other CoT spirits?  That's another kind of torture, especially if the original person still experiences said possession.  Even the Hellions, presumably, use unwilling captives for their rituals...  

The CoT are still near the top of my list for the most villainous. I don't know how they choose their victims, but they do displace or obliterate those peoples' souls. And we get to see those ritual soul theft/kills in progress all over the lower level zones, too.

[Andreah]

3 minutes ago, Go0gleplex said:

Looking up both Facism and Nazism, I'd say that such labels are not really limited to just the WW II throwbacks but can actually be applied to several of the various villain groups in some aspects such as Rikti, Nemesis, Arachnos, Malta, Tsoo, and even Devouring Earth/Hamidon. Not going to bring in IRL stuff since such a topic already skirts the proverbial minefield.  So while definitely an evil I can't really see it as such a limited scope applied to just 5th/Council organizations nor rate it, being merely a political/ethical evil, as higher than something that affects the existential well being of life on a more esoteric level of existence which run the risk of being ELE level threats. 

I agree. They have a visceral effect on us as an audience since we're still  historically in aftermath of WW2, and which also means even while that visceral reaction can be touched on by them, the writers have had to tread carefully in order to stay within the bounds of good taste. This, in my mind, lessens my perceived evil of those game enemy groups, because they've been merely cartooned up to it and I'm expected to just take it on faith from there. The other groups you mention have objectives which are arguably just as bad and perhaps worse. 

[biostem]

TBH, as bad as the Council/5th are, don't they, technically, recruit people into their ranks?  Sure, they experiment on many of them against their will, but it's much harder for me to feel bad for those who willingly join such detestable organizations of their own volition, vs those abducted off the streets or from their homes...  As for other groups, like the Rikti,  other than the conscripts, (which I'm assuming are there against their will), the others are basically "regular military", no? 

[Andreah]

8 minutes ago, biostem said:

TBH, as bad as the Council/5th are, don't they, technically, recruit people into their ranks?  Sure, they experiment on many of them against their will, but it's much harder for me to feel bad for those who willingly join such detestable organizations of their own volition, vs those abducted off the streets or from their homes...  As for other groups, like the Rikti,  other than the conscripts, (which I'm assuming are there against their will), the others are basically "regular military", no? 

They do, and you can see them recruiting all around the city. In the back of my mind, I imagine they're using mind-control and a lot of their recruits aren't voluntary. (Otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me.) And this also justifies my not using lethal force on their run of the mill minions -- they wouldn't be in their right minds and acting on their own volition.

 

The groups that are there with "Blue and Orange Morality" that I can't necessarily say is good or bad, just different and rightly opposed; yeah, that's a hard one. They're sort of like the weather -- sometimes it's bad and hurts people. And unlike the weather, we can stop them when they do it. From the Rikti perspective, they're just trying to get home, right? And we're in their way, with our scary magic and superheroes. 

[biostem]

15 minutes ago, Andreah said:

They do, and you can see them recruiting all around the city. In the back of my mind, I imagine they're using mind-control and a lot of their recruits aren't voluntary. (Otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me.) And this also justifies my not using lethal force on their run of the mill minions -- they wouldn't be in their right minds and acting on their own volition.

That, or the Council/5th just makes a really good pitch, (not saying they don't use misleading or subversive tactics, mind you)...

[Octogoat]

15 minutes ago, Andreah said:

They do, and you can see them recruiting all around the city. In the back of my mind, I imagine they're using mind-control and a lot of their recruits aren't voluntary. (Otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me.) And this also justifies my not using lethal force on their run of the mill minions -- they wouldn't be in their right minds and acting on their own volition.

 

The groups that are there with "Blue and Orange Morality" that I can't necessarily say is good or bad, just different and rightly opposed; yeah, that's a hard one. They're sort of like the weather -- sometimes it's bad and hurts people. And unlike the weather, we can stop them when they do it. From the Rikti perspective, they're just trying to get home, right? And we're in their way, with our scary magic and superheroes. 

 

Never found the rikti evil just alien and on the wrong ear (they think we attacked them first) so this tracks

[Andreah]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

That, or the Council/5th just makes a really good pitch

Isn't a very convincing argument a sort of mind control, too? :D 

 

It doesn't work on me though, I see them on those soap boxes and if I'm not in a hurry I just blast 'em. 

[Octogoat]

I've been thinking about it and I think vahzilok might be the most proactively evil. They see people as meat and trade their parts like baseball cards. Sometimes send the corpses of their victims to explode people. 

[Go0gleplex]

Propaganda is an art form in and of itself. Real World politics has demonstrated that time and time again. Easy enough to convince someone that something that is really bad for you at the end of the day is something that you really must be doing or needing...it all depends on the wording and presentation when playing on the fears and desperation of the populace. 

 

Something that the 5th/Council both share with the Rikti (The Lost...homeless being mutated and joining for promises of power and belonging to something greater than the nothing they presently have).  Malta is the typical greedy paranoid politicians...if you can't control it then it must be destroyed or imprisoned. Skulls, Hellions, Outcasts, and Freaks are pretty much hedonistic opportunists with a bit of power behind them while the Trolls are just violent drug addicts. So nothing special there...and the Family are likely the most 'normal' crooks in the game and are evil in more of an ethical side note sort of way rather than being actually amoral like most of the others.  The Clockwork...well...can a brainless bot powered by a paranoid psychic lunatic really be evil for the sake of evil rather than simply being dissociative reactive when acted against? 

 

We could spend days psycho-analyzing and deconstructing the various villain groups but the game reality is is that the Heroes are still losing the battle against all the bad guys and Paragon's upkeep/repair is likely close to, if not exceeding, that of the national GDP alone. 

[Andreah]

18 minutes ago, Go0gleplex said:

Paragon's upkeep/repair is likely close to, if not exceeding, that of the national GDP alone

Whole sections of the city are in total ruin and overrun with chaos and crime, with no hope of restoration.

[Uncle Shags]

I'm sure you've all run Posi 2.  How can you think badly of Vahzilok?!

 

Dr. Vahz:

"The people of Paragon think I'm a monster... But my work here will usher in a new age!

An end to sickness...

An end to war...

An end to death itself!

Task Force Shags will NOT stop my new age!" 

 

Poor Dr. Vahzilok is just a humanitarian trying to make the world a better place! 

 

And when we ruin his plan?

"I was to build a Utopia! A place where all would live, free from disease, free from the grip of death!
Is such a world...truly impossible to obtain...?" 

 

Is that evil?  Insane?  Of course. But evil?  His aim was Utopia! 

 

Maybe it's the actions that matter, not the intention? 

 

 

[Luminara]

18 minutes ago, Uncle Shags said:

Task Force Shags

 

Shags?

Shags?

 

[kito]

1 hour ago, Uncle Shags said:

I'm sure you've all run Posi 2.  How can you think badly of Vahzilok?!

 

Dr. Vahz:

"The people of Paragon think I'm a monster... But my work here will usher in a new age!

An end to sickness...

An end to war...

An end to death itself!

Task Force Shags will NOT stop my new age!" 

 

Poor Dr. Vahzilok is just a humanitarian trying to make the world a better place! 

 

And when we ruin his plan?

"I was to build a Utopia! A place where all would live, free from disease, free from the grip of death!
Is such a world...truly impossible to obtain...?" 

 

Is that evil?  Insane?  Of course. But evil?  His aim was Utopia! 

 

Maybe it's the actions that matter, not the intention? 

 

 

 

Aming for utopia is not really evil, but how he goes about it. And even the end result of his utopia. Really his definition of utopia is evil. 

 

 That is the issue with lots of the "evil" factions there "goals" are "good"there just so twisted that the good is actually evil.  

 

For who is most evil I guess it really depends on what you fear or dislike most as you cant really decided one evil is truly worse then the outher it's all evil. 

 

For the "gangs" warriors/skulls/hellions/outcasts/Freakshow/tsoo/trolls 

I would say there just on the low scale of total damage and goals. Where some like the outcasts are almost forced into it from mutant hatred and years of government interference with them. 

 

The "organized" ones 

Knives/Malta/sky pirates/rikti/family/devouring earth/nemesis/5th/crey

Manage to do alot more damage to city over all but far more goal oriented. They often are always succeeding in some way even while loosing a battle.  

 

The left overs ones like the cot or vahzilok etc seem to just be cartoon evil where people where high and just went with what's the worse thing they could do.  Not often having a goal or function outside we do bad things. 

 

There all bad. Removing any of them is a good thing. Not sure you could real judge any of them as worse. If anything most of them need to be fleshed out more beyond cartoon bad guy.

[Go0gleplex]

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

Whole sections of the city are in total ruin and overrun with chaos and crime, with no hope of restoration.

Given the costs to build things most of Paragon would've never been constructed in the first place. lol 

1986 dollars - one mile of two lane paved street with sidewalk, curb, and gutter cost 1 million dollars to design, permit, and build. A 20 foot tall concrete retaining wall 18-inches thick was roughly 1000$ per linear foot.  Yeah...I know it's a game but when you've been at a profession as long as I have it gets harder and harder to not instinctively evaluate stuff like that. *chuckles* 

 

And given how prolifically the various villain groups have infested every part of the city, may as well tear down the war walls and cut the energy costs for all the good they are doing other than around the actual active Rikti Warzone.  😉  Maybe we can hire the Merc Groups to clear out the bad guys from the wrecked zones like Eastgate and Boom without the power bill for the walls. lol

[Andreah]

53 minutes ago, Go0gleplex said:

profession as long as I have it gets harder and harder to not instinctively evaluate stuff like that. *chuckles

Can you even imagine "War walls" ? :D 

 

Some parts of the game world just make no sense at all. But it's comic book logic.

Edited 15 hours ago by Andreah

[Go0gleplex]

I try not to. lol 

[Lusiphur Malache]

Another definition of evil could be doing bad repeatedly without remorse.  The street gangs, Outcast, Trolls, Hellions are continually robbing, vandalising, assaulting all over Paragon City.  They can't stop, won't stop, every one that gets "arrested" two more take their place.  Apathetic heroes don't even notice them, considering the gangs as beneath them.

[Marshal_General]

The greatest capacity for evil depends on the choices available to you.

 

Are demons truly evil since they are the way they were created and don't really have a choice in the matter compared to the likes of Crey who do evil because they chose to?

[Octogoat]

41 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

The greatest capacity for evil depends on the choices available to you.

 

Are demons truly evil since they are the way they were created and don't really have a choice in the matter compared to the likes of Crey who do evil because they chose to?

 

Yes you can be inherently evil.

[Marshal_General]

2 minutes ago, Octogoat said:

 

Yes you can be inherently evil.

Yes you can, but the point is which is the greater evil?

The  one who was born/created that way or the one with free will who chose to be that way?

 

I say that no demon born of hell or angel born of heaven, can be as evil or good as mankind since they had no choice and we do.

[Andreah]

1 minute ago, Octogoat said:

 

Yes you can be inherently evil.

Within the context of the game, absolutely.  I'm not sure there's a supernatural force of Evil in the game, but there may well be. Certainly if someone has it in their background I'm not going to tell them they're wrong.

 

 

[Octogoat]

49 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

Yes you can, but the point is which is the greater evil?

The  one who was born/created that way or the one with free will who chose to be that way?

 

I say that no demon born of hell or angel born of heaven, can be as evil or good as mankind since they had no choice and we do.

 

Considering that demons depending on lore are magical fascists or... Mewling kittens... It can vary wildly it's true.