Null da Gull Knockback

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

Except as others have already demonstrated in this and other KB threads, there are players that even on teams use KB and the team is happy with how they use it. So something would change.

 

And to use your previous example:

If everyone is already using their nukes and Judgements to fast clear everything, then who cares if someone is using a KB heavy set? That player can also just use his/her/their Judgement and faceroll everything right alongside the rest of you. So why the need to make KB go away in the first place?

 

If they're good at it, then they wouldn't get bullied to change to KD at null, thus no problem is created.

 

Because when they misuse KB, it's done before judgments and nukes go off and cause them to not be effective and wasted.

 

Any other excuses?

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

 

If they're good at it, then they wouldn't get bullied to change to KD at null, thus no problem is created.

If Null can make KB become KD then why would anyone even bother trying to find out if a player playing a KB heavy set is any good at it? Just ask the player if they had Null turn their KB off and if not tell the player to go do so or get kicked. As opposed to now where they have to ask if they slotted the procs and the player can cite a lack of funds for it and so get a chance to demonstrate what they can do with it.

 

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Because when they misuse KB, it's done before judgments and nukes go off and cause them to not be effective and wasted.

Then ask them to not do so and only use their Judgements and the KD slotted powers instead.

 

Any other excuses?

[golstat2003]

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

If they're good at it, then they wouldn't get bullied to change to KD at null, thus no problem is created.

 

Because when they misuse KB, it's done before judgments and nukes go off and cause them to not be effective and wasted.

 

Any other excuses?

 

And then the overpowered steam rolling team can just use the NEXT judgement to wipe out any stragglers. lol

 

EDIT: The point of my joke is that in the current coh meta of teams just going forward and obliterating everything in their path, I personally think folks make waaaay too big a deal about KB on both sides (for and against).

 

Edited Monday at 03:46 AM by golstat2003

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

If Null can make KB become KD then why would anyone even bother trying to find out if a player playing a KB heavy set is any good at it? Just ask the player if they had Null turn their KB off and if not tell the player to go do so or get kicked. As opposed to now where they have to ask if they slotted the procs and the player can cite a lack of funds for it and so get a chance to demonstrate what they can do with it.

 

Then ask them to not do so and only use their Judgements and the KD slotted powers instead.

 

Any other excuses?

 

None of this logic makes any sense. You're basically saying we /shouldn't/ address an issue because a fake person who isn't real might bully another fake person who isn't real over a problem shouldn't even exist if the person isn't misusing something.

 

You're literally fear-mongering about bullying to prevent an actual problem from having a solution that both helps people keep the thing they like and gives people the ability to not have to deal with KB if they don't want to spend the time learning how to do it "properly".

 

Not a single thing you've said has had any merit whatsoever and then you try to reverse excuse card me when I haven't given you excuses, I've given you real examples and solutions that literally PREVENT knockback from being removed. All you've done is make up outrage and not even read the thread where most of this had been gone over already.

[Super Atom]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

DIT: The point of my joke is that in the current coh meta of teams just going forward and obliterating everything in their path, I personally think folks make waaaay too big a deal about KB on both sides (for and against).

 

 This. It's barely even a real problem, which is why the bullying excuse is such horseshit.

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

None of this logic makes any sense. You're basically saying we /shouldn't/ address an issue because a fake person who isn't real might bully another fake person who isn't real over a problem shouldn't even exist if the person isn't misusing something.

 

No, I am saying to talk to the person using KB on the team scattering mobs and find a resolution. Either by helping to fund that player in getting the procs, giving that player the procs, learning to work around each other and move on, or part ways and move on. See? Issue addressed. Without having to drag any devs into it.

 

16 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

You're literally fear-mongering about bullying to prevent an actual problem from having a solution

That fear-mongering is based on personal experience in the game. There is a reason why I don't take any of my KB characters into teams except with a select group of friends.

 

16 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

gives people the ability to not have to deal with KB if they don't want to spend the time learning how to do it "properly".

They already don't have to deal with KB if they don't want to learn how to use in a way that doesn't at least get in the team's way. They don't take those characters into teams or they slot the procs to convert their KB to KD. There is already a solution in the form of Sudden Acceleration and Overwhelming Force.

 

  

17 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Not a single thing you've said has had any merit whatsoever

Just because you don't like what I have to say does not mean it does not have merit.

 

  

17 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

then you try to reverse excuse card me when I haven't given you excuses,

 

24 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Because when they misuse KB, it's done before judgments and nukes go off and cause them to not be effective and wasted.

And there is an excuse you gave.

 

  

17 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

 This. It's barely even a real problem, which is why the bullying excuse is such horseshit.

Then why the drive to make it go away via Null the Gull?

 

 

Edited Monday at 04:05 AM by Rudra
Edited to complete post since hitting the Enter key for some reason submitted the incomplete post.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

No, I am saying to talk to the person using KB on the team scattering mobs and find a resolution. Either by helping to fund that player in getting the procs, giving that player the procs, learning to work around each other and move on, or part ways and move on. See? Issue addressed. Without having to drag any devs into it.

 

So instead of an easy null option to remove the issue, we should fund another players character, hand hold them into hopefully learning it, and just deal with it? Yeah that's a waaay better solution to clicking two buttons. also, heaven fucking forbid developers have to develop. I'm so goddamn tired of that excuse being used for everything.

 

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

That fear-mongering is based on personal experience in the game. There is a reason why I don't take any of my KB characters into teams except with a select group of friends.

 

You're literally just admitting there's a problem with knockback while arguing against solutions to knockback in a misguided reply about how people are trying to ruin others fun. You make aboslutely no sense.

 

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

They already don't have to deal with KB if they don't want to learn how to use in a way that doesn't at least get in the team's way. They don't take those characters into teams or they slot the procs to convert their KB to KD. There is already a solution in the form of Sudden A

 

and again, acknowledging a problem while giving nothing of an answer on how to fix it other than personal time, effort, and influence to ANOTHER player.

 

Rudra, as humorous as arguing with a language model is, either have a counter solution to OP's suggestion or accept nobody is trying to ruin your solo experience and move on.

[Super Atom]

and again, homecoming isn't going to do the null option so this is debate is just us circlesmerkin anyway.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

 

So instead of an easy null option to remove the issue, we should fund another players character, hand hold them into hopefully learning it, and just deal with it? Yeah that's a waaay better solution to clicking two buttons. also, heaven fucking forbid developers have to develop. I'm so goddamn tired of that excuse being used for everything.

 

 

You're literally just admitting there's a problem with knockback while arguing against solutions to knockback in a misguided reply about how people are trying to ruin others fun. You make aboslutely no sense.

 

 

and again, acknowledging a problem while giving nothing of an answer on how to fix it other than personal time, effort, and influence to ANOTHER player.

 

Rudra, as humorous as arguing with a language model is, either have a counter solution to OP's suggestion or accept nobody is trying to ruin your solo experience and move on.

There is no point to further responses to you if your sole response is going to be that nothing I say is valid unless I agree with you.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

There is no point to further responses to you if your sole response is going to be that nothing I say is valid unless I agree with you.

 

Because you aren't giving  solution's to agree with. So far you've said

 

• Knockback is fun
• It doesn't matter in soloplay
• People get bullied for having it
• People would get bullied if they could not have it
• You should pay for them to not have it
• You should reach out and explain to the player how to do something (Which always ends without being cursed at, surely)
• Homecoming would have to develop
• Knockback has niche uses

Which one of these solutions should i be agreeing with exactly? They're all terrible non-answers to a small scale issue limited to like, 2 power sets?

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

Knockback is fun

It is.

 

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

It doesn't matter in soloplay

It really doesn't, but that wasn't what I was saying.

 

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

People get bullied for having it

I wouldn't say bullied so much as booted from teams. (I'm happy for those respondents on these forums that have gotten to show others that they can use KB to the team's benefit, because I only ever saw players immediately getting kicked for having KB sets the moment they joined the team.)

 

3 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

People would get bullied if they could not have it

I never said that. I said that teams would require them to use the KD option from Null the Gull if it was available. Bullying is something you added to my comments.

 

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

You should pay for them to not have it

If they choose to take a KB set and don't want to use KB? Then yes, they should pay inf' or merits to not retain KB. If other players are willing to help them purchase the procs or provide them the procs? Great, they will find that resolution even faster.

 

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

You should reach out and explain to the player how to do something (Which always ends without being cursed at, surely)

This is true for pretty much everything, not just KB. And if they curse at you for it? Odds are you are dealing with a problem player.

 

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Homecoming would have to develop

Well, yes they do. However, I don't see the point of them developing a response for something we already have responses for.

 

6 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Knockback has niche uses

KB has general use, but the current meta relegates it to niche just like it does other control effects.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

It is.

 

It really doesn't, but that wasn't what I was saying.

 

I wouldn't say bullied so much as booted from teams. (I'm happy for those respondents on these forums that have gotten to show others that they can use KB to the team's benefit, because I only ever saw players immediately getting kicked for having KB sets the moment they joined the team.)

 

I never said that. I said that teams would require them to use the KD option from Null the Gull if it was available. Bullying is something you added to my comments.

 

If they choose to take a KB set and don't want to use KB? Then yes, they should pay inf' or merits to not retain KB. If other players are willing to help them purchase the procs or provide them the procs? Great, they will find that resolution even faster.

 

This is true for pretty much everything, not just KB. And if they curse at you for it? Odds are you are dealing with a problem player.

 

Well, yes they do. However, I don't see the point of them developing a response for something we already have responses for.

 

KB has general use, but the current meta relegates it to niche just like it does other control effects.

 

So no solutions? got it.

[Rudra]

Just now, Super Atom said:

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It is.

 

It really doesn't, but that wasn't what I was saying.

 

I wouldn't say bullied so much as booted from teams. (I'm happy for those respondents on these forums that have gotten to show others that they can use KB to the team's benefit, because I only ever saw players immediately getting kicked for having KB sets the moment they joined the team.)

 

I never said that. I said that teams would require them to use the KD option from Null the Gull if it was available. Bullying is something you added to my comments.

 

If they choose to take a KB set and don't want to use KB? Then yes, they should pay inf' or merits to not retain KB. If other players are willing to help them purchase the procs or provide them the procs? Great, they will find that resolution even faster.

 

This is true for pretty much everything, not just KB. And if they curse at you for it? Odds are you are dealing with a problem player.

 

Well, yes they do. However, I don't see the point of them developing a response for something we already have responses for.

 

KB has general use, but the current meta relegates it to niche just like it does other control effects.

Expand  

 

So no solutions? got it.

Solutions:

Purchase and slot Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD or Overwhelming Force: Damage/Chance for KD/KB to KD.

Play around with KB and learn how to use it to position foes.

Claim any mobs you scatter so the team just moves on to the next spawn while you deal with the survivors.

Don't take a KB heavy set into any team that plays by the meta.

Work with the team to find other solutions.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

Purchase and slot Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD or Overwhelming Force: Damage/Chance for KD/KB to KD.

 

So do this instead of a damage proc, or utility proc, and be worse than other blast sets because of a shitty bad mechanic

 

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Play around with KB and learn how to use it to position foes.

This is roleplay, i won't acknowledge it any further.

 

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Claim any mobs you scatter so the team just moves on to the next spawn while you deal with the survivors.

Be useless

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Don't take a KB heavy set into any team that plays by the meta.

just don't play a set you like because it sucks and rudra doesn't want any real fixes

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Work with the team to find other solutions.

 

Like a null the gull option?

Like a global KB>KD?

 

😉 

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Purchase and slot Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD or Overwhelming Force: Damage/Chance for KD/KB to KD.

 

So do this instead of a damage proc, or utility proc, and be worse than other blast sets because of a shitty bad mechanic

You can still slot damage procs. We get 67 enhancement slots to assign where ever we want.

 

3 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Play around with KB and learn how to use it to position foes.

This is roleplay, i won't acknowledge it any further.

No, its called tactics. Roleplay is what people do when they chat in character and/or do emotes in character.

 

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Claim any mobs you scatter so the team just moves on to the next spawn while you deal with the survivors.

Be useless

The team gets to keep moving steamrolling everything in their path, the KB player still gets to use his/her/their KB, and the mobs still get dead/defeated.

 

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Don't take a KB heavy set into any team that plays by the meta.

just don't play a set you like because it sucks and rudra doesn't want any real fixes

If you like the set so much, then why are you trying to take away its identity?

 

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Work with the team to find other solutions.

 

Like a null the gull option?

Like a global KB>KD?

Is not working with the team, but asking the devs to give an easy way to force KB to KD on anyone joining a team.

 

You are obviously not arguing in good faith. We're done here.

[Super Atom]

28 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You can still slot damage procs. We get 67 enhancement slots to assign where ever we want.

 

No, its called tactics. Roleplay is what people do when they chat in character and/or do emotes in character.

 

The team gets to keep moving steamrolling everything in their path, the KB player still gets to use his/her/their KB, and the mobs still get dead/defeated.

 

If you like the set so much, then why are you trying to take away its identity?

 

Is not working with the team, but asking the devs to give an easy way to force KB to KD on anyone joining a team.

 

You are obviously not arguing in good faith. We're done here.

 

You just repeated the same nonsense you've done the whole time, while again offering nothing of value in ways of solutions. Your solution to people who dislike KB is literally "Deal with it". That's not a solution, compromise, or even a productive conversation.

 

"the team has to pick up your slack"

"It's not roleplay, i just pretend im useful"

"You're trying to steal my fun away!!!"

 

Whaterver dude. I told the GM's i'd be less coc breaky so, i think you're correct. We're done here.

Edited Monday at 05:03 AM by Super Atom
Changed tos to coc

[golstat2003]

Yeaaahhhh if the devs have said they are never going to do a global option . . . then trying to come up with solutions that have to do with a global option are pointless.

 

Again, personally I don't care if they do it. I don't see anything wrong with a global IO (I actually think that might be a better idea) but the forum postes aren't the ones that have to be convineced. LOL

[Ultimo]

What if, instead of Null doing a global thing, they altered the enhancement that changes knockback to knockdown, so it does double duty.  That is, it makes the change, but also functions as an accuracy enhancement, or a damage enhancement.  That way, someone can slot it where they might otherwise slot something else.

[SableShrike]

I’d be okay with this, honestly.

 

As it stands, some powersets are penalized when teaming as they sow chaos with KB.

 

Sable is a perfect case for this: without Sudden Accelerations he would be flinging mobs all over the place with Gravitic Emanation and Quasar.

 

Can I play him without those KB IOs?  Sure, but he’s not nearly as effective or as fun (chain stunning, siphoning, and nuking entire groups without pissing off the Tanker).

 

Khelds and Energy Blast toons have to pay the “tax” for this in the form of IOs.  The already slot-starved Khelds are further hit by needing to do this to reach their potential.

 

Given this would be totally optional at Null, I see zero reason ya couldn’t do this.

 

 

I should mention that though he’s 50+3, I most enjoy playing Sable in lower content.

 

Synapse, the Faultline and Striga arcs, etc.

 

KD is notably more fun than KB in such cases.  Scattering mobs can and does get you killed at lower levels.  Especially with Quantum bosses.

Edited Monday at 10:41 AM by SableShrike

[SableShrike]

On 1/8/2025 at 4:07 AM, Techwright said:

 

"a DPS increase":  First I've heard of this.  I'm not a numbers guy, by far, but I'm surprised because my main since Live has been an ENG/ENG blaster, inherent KB.  I'd have thought I'd have heard of it by now.   I love ENG/ENG, but get highly annoyed at having to sacrifice a slot per power for KB>KD just to play with a team.    My first inclination, therefore, is to welcome the Null suggestion, but I'll be open-minded and would like to know more about this DPS increase.  How much, and what causes it? Just putting the Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD enhancement in?

 

As I stated, I lean towards this, but wonder what would happen to Sudden Acceleration: KB to KD? Modified to something new or sent the way of the Dodo and the Strength of Will Inspiration?

 

It’d still be useful!  For example on an Eng/Eng that you wanted to change most KB to KD BUT still keep Power Push as a “Get Back!” (tm Ludacris) power.

[Ghost]

An easier solution for anyone who has been kicked/bullied, or thinks they may be kicked/bullied for KB……..

Form your own team!

 

No Devs required!

 

 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

5 hours ago, Ghost said:

An easier solution for anyone who has been kicked/bullied, or thinks they may be kicked/bullied for KB……..

Form your own team!

 

No Devs required!

Agreed. This is certainly the solution that I'd recommend.

 

This bullying claim makes me laugh though. People have said for years now "City of Heroes has the best community EVAR!" But, when it's convenient for them, they'll happily claim "We have to fix this or people will be bullied." Both can't be true, either we have the best community ever or we have a bunch of bullies who will be mean to their fellow players for various reasons.

 

So which one is it?

[srmalloy]

14 hours ago, Super Atom said:

none of you have done anything to explain why knockback is good, all you've done is say you sometimes can use it in a way that eliminates what KB does and not disrupt the team.

It is less good than it was before, back on Live, when the devs handed out ranged attacks to essentially every mob in the game to address the issue of hoverblasting, where a flying/hovering Blaster could hang in the air above spawns, out of range of their melee attacks, and grind them down with impunity. I could make the argument that they went too far, with many mobs having ranged attacks that outrange a snipe attack with Boost Range active, but that's a separate issue. Before ranged attacks became 'universal' among NPCs, knockback was a ready source of mitigation -- knock a mob away from you, and you had until they got back into melee range to shoot at them. But as a general tool, it requires more skill to use effectively, but knockback is an effective herding tool if you exploit the geometry of a mission -- firing off a cone with knockback to push mobs into a corner, where they cluster up for other AoEs. But just knocking mobs away from the melee team members usually doesn't help the situation unless you're doing it to give them time to recover, as the ranged attacks are generally wimpier than the melee ones.

 

However, "disrupting the team" is not a feature confined to knockback, as anyone with a tank or brute who has run into a room with mobs scattered around the room, hit them with a taunt... and then discovered that they're all stuck scattered around the room, because the controller on the team has fired off an AoE immobilize before anyone else can attack, and before the mobs can be grouped up to make it easier to defeat them... and has this happen over and over and over again during missions and TFs.

 

[Super Atom]

39 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

It is less good than it was before, back on Live, when the devs handed out ranged attacks to essentially every mob in the game to address the issue of hoverblasting, where a flying/hovering Blaster could hang in the air above spawns, out of range of their melee attacks, and grind them down with impunity. I could make the argument that they went too far, with many mobs having ranged attacks that outrange a snipe attack with Boost Range active, but that's a separate issue. Before ranged attacks became 'universal' among NPCs, knockback was a ready source of mitigation -- knock a mob away from you, and you had until they got back into melee range to shoot at them. But as a general tool, it requires more skill to use effectively, but knockback is an effective herding tool if you exploit the geometry of a mission -- firing off a cone with knockback to push mobs into a corner, where they cluster up for other AoEs. But just knocking mobs away from the melee team members usually doesn't help the situation unless you're doing it to give them time to recover, as the ranged attacks are generally wimpier than the melee ones.

 

However, "disrupting the team" is not a feature confined to knockback, as anyone with a tank or brute who has run into a room with mobs scattered around the room, hit them with a taunt... and then discovered that they're all stuck scattered around the room, because the controller on the team has fired off an AoE immobilize before anyone else can attack, and before the mobs can be grouped up to make it easier to defeat them... and has this happen over and over and over again during missions and TFs.

 

 

I've been here since closed beta, I'm aware of the cycles of life this game has gone through.

 

The difference between a controller using their AoE immobilize poorly and knockback, one is easily fixed while the other is a lot harder to control where the enemies are gonna go, and their entire powerset isn't AOE immobilize oriented. It's not even remotely comparable in terms of difficulty, opportunity cost, instructions on how to fix, or personal skill needed to not fuck up.

 

You're talking about a single ability, whos player error is amazingly easy to self-learn and fix vs an entire power set that the only solution to fix easily is to waste a ton of slots. We can be cheeky and boil it down to just the aoe knockbacks being a problem, in which you still have 2 aoe and 1 cone powers that can fuck the team flow up. You don't often hear the groans about controllers or dominators ruining team flow, you hear about knockback frequently. The evidence is literally in the number of threads created for control vs knockback.

 

quick edit; i also feel like i need to reiterate, this is a small-scale problem. It's well and truly not as deep as it sounds when you talk about it. Knockback is annoying and the fix is a punishment other sets don't have to deal with, but it's very very limited in scope. Teams aren't being ruined every 5 seconds by a knockbacker.

Edited Monday at 06:20 PM by Super Atom

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

To knock or not to knock, that is the question . . . again.

 

As I mentioned in a previous KB discussion: 

 

Quote

Anyway, knockback is one of those topics that people feel strongly about.  On my player account, I will sometimes slot -KB on knockback attacks, but not always.  Shin would kick me so fast from his team because I use meteor and I don't slot it with -KB.  Going back to the OP, when I get chastised for using KB I tell them not to worry about it -- if I knock it, I kill it.  Some melee will then say "OK" thinking (and hoping) that I will soon go splat and are then surprised but satisfied when I don't.  They can go off and herd the next group and avoid the frustration of having to chase my targets.  Win-Win.  When I play my Storm/Storm corrupter I'll restrict unleashing all my chaos when on a team or I'll go to another group of critters and let loose on them without bothering the teammates.

 

On the other hand, I have also been annoyed when I was in the process of landing something like soul drain and everything gets scattered just as I fired my attack and not only do I not hit the big group but my damage is nerfed for a chunk of time.

 

I also agree with the poster that mentioned other effects potentially being problematic.  It's very frustrating when you are herding a bunch of Rikti into the MSR bowl and they get immobilized in a conga line at the edge of the bowl.  Or you get the best of both worlds:  scattered KB followed by an immob so now you have to single target attack each critter! 

 

Ultimately, I think this problem can be solved with communication, kindness, coordination, and consideration.  If you hate any KB with a passion, tell folks politely why or form your own No-KB-team.  If you insist on using KB tell folks politely why or form your own Chaos team.  Now that you know where the other player is coming from you can try to reach an agreement (like you knock it, you kill it or please wait until I use x power) or just decide it's not worth it and either play solo or find another team in line with your preferences. 

 

So use a bit of "communication, kindness, coordination, and consideration" and be excellent to each other!