My silly idea for a Hellion/Skull Update

[Sakura Tenshi]

Disclaimer: Don't take this too seriously as a suggestion. I might also be editing this later with more images.

 

So back in Issue 24 beta,, the Skulls got their update with new looks and some new members, and new names for their leadership instead of Morrowsnap and Marrow Drinker. Meanwhile, the Hellions never got their own update because the game came down with what seemed at the time to be a terminal case of cancellation. Welp, I'm here to pitch my ideas for an update to the Hellions AND the Skulls!

 

Quote

But, Sakura, the Skulls got an update, you said so yourself!

 

Well,

 

And why let good reason get in the way of a suggestion? Plus, this is a personal outlook, but I didn't like the 'jump in power' the Skulls were given, just as I didn't really like the Hellions getting the Girlfriend from Hell.

 

Now, one of the things I feel is important to the Hellions and Skulls is being incredibly similar to being palette swaps with different party masks and emblems. Why? Because, just like the real world gangs they were inspired by, they're largely the same dumbass thugs and its all interchangeable for the most part. So a lot of these suggested changes cover both gangs except a few notations. Without further adieu...

 

Minions - Minion rank would largely be unchanged, especially at lower levels, with the exception of the 'Assailant' and 'Striker' being removed. Leaving use with the old Brawler, Slicer, Chopper, Slammer, and Slugger. That and the following:

 

• From levels 1-9, the minion ranged attack is an improvised zip gun, indicative of the low level thugs they are. These pistols, maybe not mechanically weaker for damage, should still have effects an animation to suggest they're not great weapons. Around the 10-25 range is when they start packing proper revolvers or even semi-auto pistols.

(Credit to Vijay Kumar on Artstation and Fallout 4 of Bethesda Games)

 

• At levels 14 and beyond, each of the minions would also pick up a second attack.
  • Brawlers get Initial Strike from Street Justice, alternatively a version of Barrage from energy melee without the energy damage and pom pom effects. (it's a nice, one-two punch, I'm surprised it's not used in more powers)
  • Choppers get Pendulum from Battle Axe (numbers adjusted, possibly removing the KD component)
  • Slammers would get a version of Whirling Smash from Titan Weapons
  • Slicers would get a knife thrust that uses Broadsword stalker fast-Assassin's Strike animation dealing a moderate amount of damage plus 'bleeding' lethal damage overtime.
  • Sluggers get a weaker version of Shatter Armor from the bane spider powers. Deals a decent amount of damage but it also adds a -10% res vs. all damage types. Because there's an insane amount of -def from level 1 to 50 so let's make res characters suffer too.

 

Lieutenants - Once more not a whole lot of changes at lower levels with the exception of two additional Liuetenant tier enemies..

 

• New additons
  • Fallen/Death Head Slinger: Using dual pistols from Thugs Mastermind powers, these Lieutenants have get two powers from level one and thus pack a lot of DPS in Pistols and Dual Wield. Because of course common gangsters are going to try at some point to dual wield pistols.
  • Fallen/Death Head Snipers: Functioning like a lower damage Mook Hitman, these slow-attacking Hellion and Skull Lieutenants prioritize accuracy and keeping back from the main fight but can be a bane to low level heroes for being mooks that can aim worth a damn with a hunting rifle taken likely from their father's gunsafe. (If it's possible I'd suggest the weapon model they use would be the Lee Enfield that BP zombies use rather than any actual semi-auto rifles)
• Like the minions, at levels 14 and up, players would see each of the Lieutenant enemy types in the Hellions and Skulls gain a new attack.
  • Buckshots would gain a unique attack depending on their faction, with Hellion Fallen Buckshots getting 'Dragon's Breath' rounds that fire a conical burst of flames leaving enemies ignited for high fire damage over time. Meanwhile, Death Heads use Flechette and Salt rounds mixing rusted razor fragments and salt shards dealing an initial burst of minor lethal damage followed by ticks of moderate toxic damage over time.
  • Gunners of both would gain Heavy Burst from the Arachnos Soldier powers. Or a modified version.
  • Slingers add Empty Clips to their powers, making them quite the menace in raw DPS.
  • Snipers, meanwhile, do not gain any active powers but perhaps have the most impactful ability gained: increased perception range.

 

Bosses - As implied by my post above, Deathwalkers, Death Dolls, and Girlfriends from Hell would be getting the axe. But in their place I have the idea of three new bosses, one shared by both. I imagine all of these would only start spawning from level 15 and up.

 

• Darkflames: Darkflames are the result of a Hellion Damned or Skull Bone Daddy deciding their original gang doesn't sufficiently respect them and strike a deal with the other side or perhaps are even long-term spies. Either way, they've learned to wield netherworld miasma and hell's flames in kind and their previous experience serves them well.
  • Darkflame powers - Fireball, Gloom, Scorch, Smite, Soul Drain, Breath of Fire, Leadership (possibly?)
• Skull Reaper: Reapers are not nearly so direct as Bone Daddies in how they bring about death, but it doesn't make them any less dangerous, they focus on aiding their allies, often at the expense of the enemies of the gang
  • Reaper powers - Chill of the Night, Drain Life (probably a modified version that provides a small aoe team heal), Tenebrous Tentacles, Fearsome Stare.
• Hellion Hell Knights: Most demons deals don't turn out well for the Hellions, often giving over their body or blood of others for vague promises of intangible gains, but Hell Knights might have been just a bit smarter and walked away with a very physical proof of the pact; An infernal sword granting them a means to aid their allies and smite their foes.
  • Hell Knight powers - Fire Sword, Fire Sword Circle, Cauterize, Thaw, Heat Wave (Basically a ranged cone fire attack launched from the sword using the Slice animation from broadsword, moderate damage with KB component)\

 

And that's about it. I admit that now that I look at it, my own idea for replacements for the GFFH and DW/DDs don't seem much better in terms of keeping them feeling 'low street level', especially since my first instinct had been to give them some form of pet (an imp for the hell knight and haunt spectre for the Reaper) Still, I feel good finally getting all this out which has been on my mind since.... Pretty much ever. Thoughts? Your own suggestions? Share them,

[Monos King]

Some of these I feel are a little much for low level content. 

 

5 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Fallen/Death Head Snipers: Functioning like a lower damage Mook Hitman, these slow-attacking Hellion and Skull Lieutenants prioritize accuracy and keeping back from the main fight but can be a bane to low level heroes for being mooks that can aim worth a damn with a hunting rifle taken likely from their father's gunsafe. (If it's possible I'd suggest the weapon model they use would be the Lee Enfield that BP zombies use rather than any actual semi-auto rifles)

Snipe mechanics at the lower level are both sort of complex, but also sort of useless. Mooks are often in Port Oakes which is huge and has plenty of opportunities for them to be meaningful in the terrain. The Hellions are primarily heroside, and they show up at a stage where travel is less familiar. It might not be the engagement for this kind of attack. But more importantly, the types of maps they are in huge little in the way of distance protection (lower level missions have smaller maps or are clustered like the Sewers) and I don't forsee them being anything beyond sitting ducks in most encounters.

 

While hellions do exist in Port Oakes, the mooks already have this enemy type covered, and I don't see hellions as being tactical enough to utilize snipers effectively anyway.

 

8 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Choppers get Pendulum from Battle Axe (numbers adjusted, possibly removing the KD component)

I don't think Hellions should have traditional or impressive weapons outside of their upper ranked named members personally. Titan weapons is very dramatic and powerful, and some rando thugs with magic don't strike me as having the discipline or gravitas to have it. It'd be a bit jarring. 

 

11 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

From levels 1-9, the minion ranged attack is an improvised zip gun, indicative of the low level thugs they are. These pistols, maybe not mechanically weaker for damage, should still have effects an animation to suggest they're not great weapons. Around the 10-25 range is when they start packing proper revolvers or even semi-auto pistols.

This would be pretty cool.

 

13 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

• Darkflames: Darkflames are the result of a Hellion Damned or Skull Bone Daddy deciding their original gang doesn't sufficiently respect them and strike a deal with the other side or perhaps are even long-term spies. Either way, they've learned to wield netherworld miasma and hell's flames in kind and their previous experience serves them well.
  • Darkflame powers - Fireball, Gloom, Scorch, Smite, Soul Drain, Breath of Fire, Leadership (possibly?)
• Skull Reaper: Reapers are not nearly so direct as Bone Daddies in how they bring about death, but it doesn't make them any less dangerous, they focus on aiding their allies, often at the expense of the enemies of the gang
  • Reaper powers - Chill of the Night, Drain Life (probably a modified version that provides a small aoe team heal), Tenebrous Tentacles, Fearsome Stare.
• Hellion Hell Knights: Most demons deals don't turn out well for the Hellions, often giving over their body or blood of others for vague promises of intangible gains, but Hell Knights might have been just a bit smarter and walked away with a very physical proof of the pact; An infernal sword granting them a means to aid their allies and smite their foes.
  • Hell Knight powers - Fire Sword, Fire Sword Circle, Cauterize, Thaw, Heat Wave (Basically a ranged cone fire attack launched from the sword using the Slice animation from broadsword, moderate damage with KB component)\

All of this is pretty much what I mean about it being too much though; this is an extremely potent assortment of debuffs and damage and summoning for a low level group that also isn't established as a threat in the storyline. Groups like circle of thorns with heavy debuffs and means to heal are also limited by very basic attacks at the lower levels. They have a couple of attack types, like spectres, and everything else focuses on control. But these guys will have it all. If the spawn in a large group, that's level of power that could be not only too much, but also undeserving of these mere gangsters. 

[TheMoneyMaker]

Add new bosses?  Sure.

Axe existing bosses?  Pass.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Add new bosses?  Sure.

Axe existing bosses?  Pass.

For that matter, axing any of the current mobs in either faction is a hard pass. At least for me. Removing the strikers? Why? Both groups already started out having access to actual pistols and shotguns when the game launched. So they managed to get their hands on SMGs too. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to do that when they already were able to get their hands on other guns. Especially with groups like Crey, Arachnos, the Family, the Council, the 5th Column, and even the Rikti giving out weapons to other groups on the sly to help destabilize hero opposition to their own activities.

 

@Sakura Tenshi, I think you are getting confused about how the gangs in Paragon City work as opposed to Hollywood or even real life gangs. The Hellions and Skulls, while always treated as a joke by the other gangs/groups in the city, have always had access to assorted real weapons without having to jury rig weapons for themselves. (Edit: They weren't awash in guns and still had to improvise weapons, so they use sledgehammers and baseball bats instead of more conventional melee weapons, but they still are given access to actual guns without the need to make improvised ones like zip guns. I'm not against adding Hellions and Skulls that use zip guns, just against removing the existing Hellions and Skulls.)

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:27 PM by Rudra
Edited to correct "and" to "on".

[Sakura Tenshi]

@Monos King 

• Oh, yes, I do agree. The idea wasn't that they'd be proper sniper-type enemies. They'd operate more like the Hitman as mentioned where they just tend to run away from melee when they can, though they could end up with one more trait of actual snipers and be basically immobile. Also, conceptually the idea was mostly about the Hellions grabbing weapons they could for firefights and thinking what are some common weapons people actually would own at home and could grab, in this case, a hunting rifle, and thus also use it to round out the Lieutenant tier. (Gunner is the balanced attacker, Buckshot has AoE and mild control from KD, Gunslingers would have higher DPS with more attacks but weaker ones, so this one is the very slow, but accurate and slightly more damaging)
• I also agree about not giving them the full actual player powers. I had intended for them to be nerfed versions and largely just use the animations because they were the best I could think of that might work with the Slammer's sledgehammer and and the Chopper's axe (kind of weird too, I thought chopper's used their axes two-handed). Definitely could stand to have better options. Notably there's also an issue with the slugger because I'm suggering a mace animation when slugger's use their bats with two-hands like an actual baseball batter.
• Understandable. I'm not much of a theorycrafter and not that great on balancing. That said, I hope you would agree it'd be kind of cool for there to be a shared boss between Skulls and Hellions who use both fire and darkness.

As for the comments about axing existing mobs, specifically strikers and assailants, for me that's partly because it's a major source of ranged -def in the current skulls from an extremely common enemy. Which, as someone who plays mostly characters that rely on defense, is just a personal grievance. As far as axing death dolls/walkers and GFFHs? Ehhh, I guess that's an agree to disagree. If nothing else, maybe change the GFFH's appearance and ditch the whole 'succubus GF' angle for just someone who got lucky at Ouji Board roulette.

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

As for the comments about axing existing mobs, specifically strikers and assailants, for me that's partly because it's a major source of ranged -def in the current skulls from an extremely common enemy. Which, as someone who plays mostly characters that rely on defense, is just a personal grievance. As far as axing death dolls/walkers and GFFHs? Ehhh, I guess that's an agree to disagree. If nothing else, maybe change the GFFH's appearance and ditch the whole 'succubus GF' angle for just someone who got lucky at Ouji Board roulette.

The thing about the Hellions is they are a gang trying to bargain with fiends for power. Incompetently. The Girlfriends from Hell aren't so much their girlfriends as they are envoys to help the Hellions finish their fall to demonic enslavement. Aside from being in their bio that players can read in game, it also shows up in the Matthew Habashy arc where a Girlfriend from Hell is responding to her master speaking to her through the altars and the Hellions mistake her comment as being a request to do something for them.

[Sakura Tenshi]

@Rudra As I've said, it's a bit of personal preference on my part and my logic is, why would Demons need to actively work with Hellions when

1. They're pretty useless idiots, at least for the level most demons seem to operate
2. There's far more effective allies who can still be manipulated around those levels
3. They honestly pretty happily give away what the demons would want from them (their souls) while apparently not needing much in return.

Also, it's the Twinshot Arc, it does seem to imply though that GFFHs also aren't noticed as fiends by the Hellions either.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

They're pretty useless idiots, at least for the level most demons seem to operate

Because even pretty useless idiots have souls to be taken and can be leveraged to accomplish tasks in the world without drawing attention to the demons that need that task/those tasks done.

 

10 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

There's far more effective allies who can still be manipulated around those levels

Aside from the Circle of Thorns, at least as far as established factions goes, there are no allies that are willing to trade away their very souls for a questionable gift of power. (Edit: With the Circle constantly looking for loopholes and other ways to get out of their agreements while retaining their power.) And for the most part, the powers the Hellions get are questionable at best for their value in exchange for a soul. Who else is this easy to manipulate with paltry payments to open a path for the demons to come?

 

10 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

They honestly pretty happily give away what the demons would want from them (their souls) while apparently not needing much in return.

Yep, and that it makes it almost free for the demons to keep using the Hellions. And having the Girlfriends from Hell on hand to keep an eye on the idiots for their demonic masters serves the dual roles of offering more temptations for the Hellions to commit ever more heinous acts in the name of their demonic masters while also establishing a foothold in the world.

 

I get its your preference, I'm pointing out how the gangs are explained in the canon though. The Hellions and the Skulls are jokes to other gangs, but both gangs have lots of untapped potential as threats because of the bargains they pursue for their questionable increases in power. The Hellions with demons and the Skulls with darkness, possibly aspects of Death. And as the expanded rosters for the Skulls show with the Lords of Death arc, the Hellions and Skulls can grow into actual threats through their deals. So what would happen if the Hellions and/or Skulls actually managed to open a path for the powers they are bargaining with? The Circle of Thorns is already keenly aware of both groups, though they tend to write them off. However, why would they have even bothered to learn about either group if they were so ignorable?

Edited 20 hours ago by Rudra

[megaericzero]

41 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

They're pretty useless idiots

That sounds like exactly the kind of people demons would want to manipulate. It's free real estate.

 

31 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The Hellions and the Skulls are jokes to other gangs

IIRC, they're jokes to other villain groups but their pacts have put them above actual regular street gangs. I think it was the old origin contacts (Gregor Richardson?) that talk about it.

Edited 19 hours ago by megaericzero