Energy sentinels w/o knockback conversion

[ParaBruce]

Maybe I'm just a wimp, or a noob, but I'm scared of wading into the waters of team play without a bunch of knockback-to-knockdown conversion slotted up ASAP. Folks who do without, talk to me about what you do, please. What helps keep knockback fun for you without it being anti-fun on task forces and such?

 

[Sunsette]

So let's identify what people don't like about knockback:

- Scatters enemies, reducing the effectiveness of AoEs, including threat control.

- Makes ST melee DPS chase to keep up damage.

 

What do people like about Knockback:

- Soft control that few enemies are completely immune to.

 

Next, let's look at the abilities in Sentinel Energy Blast:

- Power Bolt, 20% chance of Mag 1.16 KB, ST

- Power Blast, 30% chance of Mag 1.66 KB, ST

- Power Burst, 60% chance of Mag 3.32 KB, ST

- Power Push, 100% chance of Mag 13.29 KB, ST

- Focused Power Bolt, 50% chance of Mag 1.16 KB, ST

 

- Energy Torrent, 60% chance of Mag 4.99 KB, Targeted AoE

- Explosive Blast, 50% chance of Mag 3.32 KB, Targeted AoE

- Nova, 100% chance of Mag 16.62 KB, Point-Blank AoE

 

What do these things combined tell us? First of all, anything with a Mag at 1-ish is very likely to get turned to mere knockdown on a difficult target, and it's not a big knockback even on a soft one. That means with the exception of Power Burst and Power Push, the single target attacks are unlikely to significantly disrupt a formation to begin with. If you prioritize hitting very tough targets or mopping up targets that the scrappers and brutes have no interest in running to in the first place, your single target attacks are unlikely to be a problem. While I've seen Power Push take AVs off their feet before, my groups generally agree that's not a big disruption and it can even be useful in disrupting the AV's damage output.

 

Second of all, the AoEs are a nightmare if you don't do something to mitigate them. The targeted AoEs are unreliable in KB so half the group will be stationary and half will go forward; the PBAoE is a circle so if you're in the midst of the attacks you will scatter in 360 degrees.  How can you mitigate them?

 

One way that you've written off (and frankly, I don't bother with these IOs either) is the KB to KD IOs. (Minor note: Sudden Acceleration is slightly more reliable than Overwhelming Force on this front. I've noticed with Nova and Power Push, sometimes I still get big KBs from these powers if I have OF KB to KD slotted rather than SA KB to KD).

 

The second way is positioning, and I think it's the best general option at low to mid levels: if you fly overhead and deliver KB downwards from a roughly 70 to 90 degree angle with respect to the ground, the KB is transformed into a very strong knockdown, which has all the usual benefits and none of the drawbacks. This doesn't work very well for Nova, since it only has a 20 foot range -- not enough to get that 70 to 90 degree angle on more than one or two foes -- but it's great for Explosive Blast and Energy Torrent. (In general I don't recommend taking both Energy Torrent and Nova on the same build since their optimal positioning is completely opposite, and time spent moving is time you're not shooting.)

 

The third way is to rely on AoE immobilizes. Almost every AoE immobilize in the game gives either KB to KD transformation (rare) or straight up immunity to 95% of Knockbacks (very common). And what's more, you can get an AoE immobilize with KB immunity in Dark, Fire, Ice, Leviathan, and Mu Masteries as a Sentinel. (Electric Mastery, Mace Mastery, and Soul Mastery's AOE immobilizes don't provide KB protection or transformation; Ninja Tool and Psionic lack an AoE immobilize). Once you get to a high level that you can afford to get one of these abilities heavily slotted, I strongly recommend taking them as Energy to abuse Nova heavily. If you're not at that level yet, though, just be cautious and don't use Nova much in groups if there's not a controller or dominator providing AoE immobilizations.

 

And lastly, a minor note: knockback can be very, very helpful for the right groups. Even though I have my AoE immobilize now, one of the things I have learned is when not to put it up. Frequently when dealing with Arachnos, Nemesis, Rularuu, Carnival, or Knives/Talons of Vengeance -- all very deadly groups who have hard to kill enemies with disruptive controls or buffs -- I will not immobilize right away but use KB to juggle their problem members. I especially enjoy playing knockback shuffleboard with fake nems before they can put up their force field of glory towards the end of their health bar. Since the Sentinel immobilizes are only Mag 3, bosses will not be immobilized right away, which works very well for this method.

[ParaBruce]

Just to clarify, I'm not writing off KB -> KD. Just the opposite. My natural reaction is to panic and load up every knockback-generating power with one.

 

Which is why looking at the percentage changes and intensities is hugely helpful. Thank you! I was looking for a way to feel comfortable without doing that, and you delivered. :)

 

[CaptTastic]

I go for a compromise solution on my Energy/Invul Sentinel. I put the KB>KD enhancement in the AoEs but leave my ST attacks as they are. KB is a key part of my survivability, especially against Bosses with Psi attacks, so no way I’m dropping them to keep teams happy. That said, on teams the mobs should be locked down or taunted or both, so AoE knockback doesn’t really help them help me

[Rathulfr]

I agree with most of what's been said here.  You don't need KB-to-KD procs in all your attacks: just the AoEs need them (mostly).  You want your single-target attacks to retain their KB, because it's essential for damage mitigation/control.

 

When teaming, just be careful about your positioning, and try to wait for taunts and lockdowns before doing AoE knockbacks.  Thinking ahead a few seconds makes all the difference between being a good Energy blaster and the bad one everyone hates.

 

I recommend skipping Energy Torrent altogether, instead of spending the money to slot it with a KB/KD proc IO.  Its primary purpose is knockback, and it doesn't do much damage, so there's not much point in taking it if you're going to change the KB to KD, which is slightly less effective.

 

I recommend slotting the Sudden Acceleration KB/KD proc IO in Explosive Blast if you're going to train it.  The KB is one of the primary "features" of Explosive Blast, and using it carelessly is guaranteed to elicit groans from many team members.

 

Nova can go either way, depending on the IO set you decide on for your build.  Avalanche/Superior Avalanche would be the best IO set, because you can sacrifice the 6th slot for the Sudden Acceleration's KB/KD proc and only lose the set bonus for fire/cold/AoE defense (not a big deal in most builds) -- but it's an expensive set.

 

The best discount IO set for Nova is Obliterate; however, you have to give up a pretty significant set bonus for melee/smashing/lethal defense to put the KB/KD proc in the 6th slot. 

 

Overwhelming Force is a third option for Nova, but it's not a good one because it's only a chance to proc KB to KD, and I've heard reports that it's fairly unreliable.

 

[ParaBruce]

Thanks to both of you, too! I love it when explanations go beyond yes/no; I'm learning a bunch, and glad of it.

 

[Guffnat]

*snip*

Overwhelming Force is a third option for Nova, but it's not a good one because it's only a chance to proc KB to KD, and I've heard reports that it's fairly unreliable.

 

This is not true. The "chance for knockback" (20% afaik) only applies to powers that don't have a knockback effect. If the power already has a knockback effect the IO turns the knockback to knockdown, but some powers would be too powerful if they would repeatedly knockdown 100% of the time (like bonfire). The chance is reduced from 100% knockback (which would happen only once) to approximately 20% knockdown since foes stay inside the patch once the knockdown is applied and can be knocked down several times. However, bonfire is still stupidly strong with the IO and gives blasters a chance to take a reliable knockdown patch that deals damage and outperforms skills like ice slick or earthquake.

[Rathulfr]

This is not true. The "chance for knockback" (20% afaik) only applies to powers that don't have a knockback effect. If the power already has a knockback effect the IO turns the knockback to knockdown, but some powers would be too powerful if they would repeatedly knockdown 100% of the time (like bonfire). The chance is reduced from 100% knockback (which would happen only once) to approximately 20% knockdown since foes stay inside the patch once the knockdown is applied and can be knocked down several times. However, bonfire is still stupidly strong with the IO and gives blasters a chance to take a reliable knockdown patch that deals damage and outperforms skills like ice slick or earthquake.

 

I did not know that.  A friend of mine told me that he tried Overwhelming Force and was disappointed that it didn't proc reliably.  Maybe I misunderstood him.  I plan to try this out on Justin tonight, just for my own sanity.  I gladly stand corrected.  Thanks for the information!

 

[Guffnat]

Nova and Power Push should be 100% knockdown with the IO.

[Sunsette]

Should be, but are not.

 

My -guess- is that what occurs is that sometimes the chance for additional knockdown procs on top of the natural converted knockdown, and on Nova and Power Push the base magnitude is so high that the converted KD stacks back into KB. But I haven't actually tested the rate. I've seen this for myself, and have had firsthand reports from three other Energy set users of different archetypes in-game. Whatever the precise cause, though, none of us have seen this issue occur with Sudden Acceleration's KB to KD or on powers besides Nova and Power Push.

 

There's a few things wonky about KB. There are times that 100% KB moves don't KB for reasons I can't tell; there are times enemies in AoE immobs that provide KB protection get knocked anyway. I am not sure exactly why any of these things occur.

[Riverdusk]

 

 

The third way is to rely on AoE immobilizes. Almost every AoE immobilize in the game gives either KB to KD transformation (rare) or straight up immunity to 95% of Knockbacks (very common).

 

Actually AoE immobilizes turning KB to KD instead of complete immunity is pretty common now.  All the controller/dom ones at least were recently changed to work that way.  You no longer have to worry about the AoE immobilize happy controller/dom on your team completely negating all your knockdown powers.

[Sunsette]

Unfortunately this change hasn't been proliferated to Sents yet, and I was under the impression the change was -only- for Control sets that had both KB and a hold in the same powersets?

[Marshal_General]

I was thinking about putting a KB-KD IO in my attacks, but I put a guys head into a wall and watched him just twitch until he despawned.

 

I am not sure I can give that up.

[Rathulfr]

I was thinking about putting a KB-KD IO in my attacks, but I put a guys head into a wall and watched him just twitch until he despawned.

 

I am not sure I can give that up.

 

+1

 

If my SG mates didn't kvetch about it so much, I wouldn't use the KB-to-KD procs at all: knocking the bad guys around was always the fun part of playing Energy/*.  Watching them fly all over the place makes me giggle.  Every.  single.  time.  ;D

 

But alas, I also want to be a good team player, so...  :-\