Henchmen Cosmetics for MMs

[Vaylenisme]

I was wandering around Paragon City Fighting Clockwork with my Mastermind Character when I thought, man it would be fun if I could have clockwork Henchmen. As I thought about it, I realized that they would just be a reskin of the Robot Henchmen. Then I thought, why not have reskinned Henchmen. 

 

In the Costume Creator you can change the look (i.e. colours) of most powers to match them with your character. Why not use that to be able to change the appearance of the henchmen.

 

Alternate Henchmen Ideas

 

Robot: Clockwork, Council Zenith, PPD Drones (Drones, Guardians, Enforcers),

 

Thugs: Mooks/Marcone Family, Longbow Militia, The Skulls,

 

Demons: Hellions, Circle of Thorns, Cap au Diable Demons, Fir Bolg

 

Necromancy: Freakshow , Vohzilok, Hydra, Banished Pantheon

 

Beasts: Devouring Earth (3 Types: Stone/Gem, Plant, Mushroom)

 

Ninjas: Tsoo, Cimerorans, Knives of Artemis

 

Mercenaries: PPD Officers, 5th Column Soldiers, RIP Officers, Nemesis Soldiers

[Doc_Scorpion]

31 minutes ago, Vaylenisme said:

As I thought about it, I realized that they would just be a reskin of the Robot Henchmen.

Your MM henchpets all have multiple forms (base, base + upgrade 1, base + upgrade 1 + upgrade 2, base + upgrade 2).  I can't think of any NPC's except the Council Warwolves (which only has 1) that has alternate forms.  As alternate forms provide both a visual marker of the upgrade level and provide additional animations for additional abilities...  it's not at all clear that it will be just a simple reskin.

Edited Friday at 05:27 AM by Doc_Scorpion

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Your MM henchpets all have multiple forms (base, base + upgrade 1, base + upgrade 1 + upgrade 2, base + upgrade 2).  I can't think of any NPC's except the Council Warwolves (which only has 1) that has alternate forms.  As alternate forms provide both a visual marker of the upgrade level and provide additional animations for additional abilities...  it's not at all clear that it will be just a simple reskin.

I can live without alternate forms based on upgrades.  Especially if that leads to us being able to fully customize pets

[tidge]

More options would be nice.

 

I do want to note that the visual upgrade clues are the only way I can reliably tell when a teammate has "forgotten" to apply a henchman upgrade.

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

I do want to note that the visual upgrade clues are the only way I can reliably tell when a teammate has "forgotten" to apply a henchman upgrade.

It's the only reliable easiest and clearest way for anyone, the MM or their teammates, to know.  But "alternate forms as visual cues" aren't nearly the problem that "lacking the appropriate model and animations" is. 

For example, the Clocks don't have the shoulder mounted missile pods the Assault Bots get (and use!) from Upgrade Robot.  Fir Bolg don't have the ice sword that the Demon Prince uses.  Etc... etc...  It's not just a simple reskin.  (And it will look like crap if you do simply reskin it.)

Edited Friday at 02:56 PM by Doc_Scorpion
Amended in light of tidge's comment

[tidge]

To be fair: The MM can also tell if a (one of its own) henchmen is upgraded by looking at the expanded icons in the pet window. Those icons can get rather "busy". For me it is about 50/50 if I notice one or more of my henchmen is missing an upgrade between visual clues and the pet window.

[Stormwalker]

44 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

It's the only reliable way for anyone, the MM or their teammates, to know.  But "alternate forms as visual cues" aren't nearly the problem that "lacking the appropriate model and animations" is. 

For example, the Clocks don't have the shoulder mounted missile pods the Assault Bots get (and use!) from Upgrade Robot.  Fir Bolg don't have the ice sword that the Demon Prince uses.  Etc... etc...  It's not just a simple reskin.  (And it will look like crap if you do simply reskin it.)

 

I pretty much agree with you here.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see some henchman customization options, but I think you're correct that this would be more complex than simply reskinning them with existing models.

[Doc_Scorpion]

23 minutes ago, tidge said:

To be fair: The MM can also tell if a (one of its own) henchmen is upgraded by looking at the expanded icons in the pet window.

Ah, yeah, you're correct and my statement about the only way isn't.  (And I've amended my post appropriately.)

[Vaylenisme]

I should note that there has already been custom models for MM pets. I don't remember the robots having a maintenance bot, it used to be a healing power and not a summon. Adding glowing lights to indicate an upgrade, or just tacking on an extra piece (in the case of robots, or changing guns/colours for other pets (maybe adding auras) doesn't seem that out there.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

For example, the Clocks don't have the shoulder mounted missile pods the Assault Bots get (and use!) from Upgrade Robot.  Fir Bolg don't have the ice sword that the Demon Prince uses.  Etc... etc...  It's not just a simple reskin.  (And it will look like crap if you do simply reskin it.)

Haven't played my demon summoner in a while, but I don't remember the ice sword being a part of the henchmen model. Rather I remember it as an attack he uses just like PCs do with their ice swords. Attacks, it remains if doesn't use other attacks until drops from combat just like with PCs. Again though, it's been a while, so apologies if I am misremembering. The missile launchers though? Yeah, those are added to the henchman just like the ninjas get their masks. (Though I should point out, when you look at an upgraded ninja through one of the Hidden Jounin? Their mask disappears. Not sure why, but was interesting to me to find out.) So it looks to me like that some upgrades have visual elements that add to the pets and others don't.

[megaericzero]

31 minutes ago, Rudra said:

(Though I should point out, when you look at an upgraded ninja through one of the Hidden Jounin? Their mask disappears. Not sure why, but was interesting to me to find out.)

My guess is that the game's graphics engine is programmed to not render particle FX for pixels that are occluded by a polygon, regardless of its texture's opacity. Hence why capes with transparent bits - such as the scarf and tattered options, which still use the same rectangular base and are just masked out in spots - block aura and power visuals.

 

Which is to say I'm also guessing those masks are rendered as power FX rather than actual model changes.

Edited Friday at 05:53 PM by megaericzero

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Vaylenisme said:

I should note that there has already been custom models for MM pets. I don't remember the robots having a maintenance bot, it used to be a healing power and not a summon.

There's a world of difference between a blob that more or less just floats there, and a henchpet with moving parts and a variety of animations.

 

35 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Haven't played my demon summoner in a while, but I don't remember the ice sword being a part of the henchmen model. Rather I remember it as an attack he uses just like PCs do with their ice swords.

I only play 'bots, so I just grabbed what looked to be something likely from the HC Wiki.  But either way, whether it's part of the model or part of an attack animation, my key point remains true - the Fir Bolg don't have it.  You might be able to remap their existing attack animations onto the existing attacks in the demon summoning set...  but bouncing the two against each other, my first impression is that it looks like a very poor fit.  Which is really my main point, there's more to doing this than simply swapping out which model the game loads when you summon your hench pets.

And I should make clear, that I am not saying that it's undesirable or impossible!  Only that there's more details and subtle (and not so subtle) pinch points than might be obvious at first glance.

[Vaylenisme]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

There's a world of difference between a blob that more or less just floats there, and a henchpet with moving parts and a variety of animations.

 

I only play 'bots, so I just grabbed what looked to be something likely from the HC Wiki.  But either way, whether it's part of the model or part of an attack animation, my key point remains true - the Fir Bolg don't have it.  You might be able to remap their existing attack animations onto the existing attacks in the demon summoning set...  but bouncing the two against each other, my first impression is that it looks like a very poor fit.  Which is really my main point, there's more to doing this than simply swapping out which model the game loads when you summon your hench pets.

And I should make clear, that I am not saying that it's undesirable or impossible!  Only that there's more details and subtle (and not so subtle) pinch points than might be obvious at first glance.

But most of my examples already have animations. I was just thinking of them swapping the generic pets with already existing enemies. Most of the work would already be done that way.

[Doc_Scorpion]

18 minutes ago, Vaylenisme said:

But most of my examples already have animations.  I was just thinking of them swapping the generic pets with already existing enemies. Most of the work would already be done that way.

"Having animations" and "having animations that match the pet's powers" are two very different things.  I've already given one specific example of that upthread - none of the potential swaps you propose have the shoulder mounted missile launchers that Assault Bots get.  You'll have to remap the powers that rely on those missile launchers onto powers that animations/models exists for.  Or you'll have to create new animations and possibly even new models.  Or, to put it more simply....  No.  Most of the work isn't already done by simply swapping models because you're not swapping apples for apples.

It's not impossible by any means, but it's not nearly as simple as you think.

[BasiliskXVIII]

I do think some are easier than others, mind you. For example, Beasts don't think get major model changes, instead picking up a breath aura which wouldn't be nearly as difficult to transfer to others (though admittedly there's very few NPCs using the same "beast" skeleton to swap for. Thugs and Mercs would also be a lot easier to transfer over since their costumes are just basic humanoid, and model changes are simply handled by adding costume pieces.

 

That said, I don't think Devouring Earth would be a fantastic choice for beasts. Players have a very specific idea of what Devouring Earth "feel" like, and I think even if we assume that it's mostly straightforward to simply use completely different models, which given the animations for the pets assume a quadruped, it probably wouldn't be (your pets would behave really weirdly any time they went to do anything) it wouldn't at all feel like Devouring Earth do, with specific resistances per enemy type, emanator pets and the like.

 

That said, I do think it would be nice at the very least to get the vanity pets as an alternate option for the beasts MM.  Sure, they're just palette swaps, but going with black wolves vs. grey or a black panther vs. a lion would be nice alternatives, since the colour tintable options only change the colour of your "scream".

[Vaylenisme]

27 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

I do think some are easier than others, mind you. For example, Beasts don't think get major model changes, instead picking up a breath aura which wouldn't be nearly as difficult to transfer to others (though admittedly there's very few NPCs using the same "beast" skeleton to swap for. Thugs and Mercs would also be a lot easier to transfer over since their costumes are just basic humanoid, and model changes are simply handled by adding costume pieces.

 

That said, I don't think Devouring Earth would be a fantastic choice for beasts. Players have a very specific idea of what Devouring Earth "feel" like, and I think even if we assume that it's mostly straightforward to simply use completely different models, which given the animations for the pets assume a quadruped, it probably wouldn't be (your pets would behave really weirdly any time they went to do anything) it wouldn't at all feel like Devouring Earth do, with specific resistances per enemy type, emanator pets and the like.

 

That said, I do think it would be nice at the very least to get the vanity pets as an alternate option for the beasts MM.  Sure, they're just palette swaps, but going with black wolves vs. grey or a black panther vs. a lion would be nice alternatives, since the colour tintable options only change the colour of your "scream".

Truthfully, I just grabbed Devouring Earth as a "nature" option. I'm surprised that there is no generic "elemental/golem" pet option. But that may be because it is generic.

 

I would really like the ability to remove the lions and add more wolves in there place for a full pack. Or vice versa and have a full pride of cats.

[TheMoneyMaker]

4 hours ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

I do think some are easier than others, mind you. For example, Beasts don't think get major model changes, instead picking up a breath aura which wouldn't be nearly as difficult to transfer to others (though admittedly there's very few NPCs using the same "beast" skeleton to swap for. Thugs and Mercs would also be a lot easier to transfer over since their costumes are just basic humanoid, and model changes are simply handled by adding costume pieces.

 

That said, I don't think Devouring Earth would be a fantastic choice for beasts. Players have a very specific idea of what Devouring Earth "feel" like, and I think even if we assume that it's mostly straightforward to simply use completely different models, which given the animations for the pets assume a quadruped, it probably wouldn't be (your pets would behave really weirdly any time they went to do anything) it wouldn't at all feel like Devouring Earth do, with specific resistances per enemy type, emanator pets and the like.

 

That said, I do think it would be nice at the very least to get the vanity pets as an alternate option for the beasts MM.  Sure, they're just palette swaps, but going with black wolves vs. grey or a black panther vs. a lion would be nice alternatives, since the colour tintable options only change the colour of your "scream".

For beasts, there are other four-legged attackers in the game, as well as vanity pets and animal form travel powers. I could see beast customization having options of all wolf and all cat choices with recoloring the base models.

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

For beasts, there are other four-legged attackers in the game, as well as vanity pets and animal form travel powers. I could see beast customization having options of all wolf and all cat choices with recoloring the base models.

I so wish.... "What do you mean I lack pride? I have pride!" *summons the lions* "See? Here's my pride. Now my pride is gonna eat you."

[srmalloy]

On 3/20/2025 at 9:54 PM, Vaylenisme said:

Then I thought, why not have reskinned Henchmen. 

That gives me a BINGO on card seven -- 25 requests for MM henchmen customization.

[biostem]

14 hours ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

I do think some are easier than others

FWIW, the issue seems to be, (from what little I know), that MMs were kind of kludged together to get them to work on whatever timetable the OG devs had to add the AT, so the issue isn't necessarily about whether you're using 4-legged models or humanoid ones;  It's not that your or the OP's suggestion doesn't have merit - it's that it'd be a huge undertaking...

[Stormwalker]

44 minutes ago, biostem said:

FWIW, the issue seems to be, (from what little I know), that MMs were kind of kludged together to get them to work on whatever timetable the OG devs had to add the AT, so the issue isn't necessarily about whether you're using 4-legged models or humanoid ones;  It's not that your or the OP's suggestion doesn't have merit - it's that it'd be a huge undertaking...

 

Yeah, my feeling on MM henchman customization is that it's such an obvious win that if it were easy it would already have been done.

 

However, the devs may certainly feel free to prove me wrong if they want to, because I'd love to see it.

[keyguardactive]

Even if it doesn't change the models, I would be happy with some color customization? Like, if I want my Ninjas mastermind to match her minions, I've got a limited color pallet I can use. But if I could make them orange? Yahtzee. 

[Vaylenisme]

1 hour ago, keyguardactive said:

Even if it doesn't change the models, I would be happy with some color customization? Like, if I want my Ninjas mastermind to match her minions, I've got a limited color pallet I can use. But if I could make them orange? Yahtzee. 

Same with robots, They would look awesome in black and red

[Vaylenisme]

4 hours ago, biostem said:

FWIW, the issue seems to be, (from what little I know), that MMs were kind of kludged together to get them to work on whatever timetable the OG devs had to add the AT, so the issue isn't necessarily about whether you're using 4-legged models or humanoid ones;  It's not that your or the OP's suggestion doesn't have merit - it's that it'd be a huge undertaking...

That may explain why when the Assult bot spins its upper torso, the waist twists into a pretzil instead of just spinning!

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Vaylenisme said:

That may explain why when the Assult bot spins its upper torso, the waist twists into a pretzil instead of just spinning!

Funnily enough, IIRC, the larger Banished Pantheon Lore pet also does that "360 degree waist rotation" animation...