Allow Masterminds to choose their weapons

[TheMoneyMaker]

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

You can't choose any of those powers in character creation. My point is that every AT gets their choice of T1 or T2 primary power set when made. The proposal to move MM inherent attacks to a power pool, or even a MM attack pool, would leave MMs with no choice other than to take their T1 pet during creation. (And for anyone choosing to play a petless MM for any reason, preclude them from doing so.) (Edit: Especially if done as a power pool since those can't be accessed until level 4.)

 

As for power availability after making the character like with START powers? If playing through the tutorial for any reason, the START vendor isn't available in the Galaxy City tutorial until just before you enter the final area to fight the giant Shivan. So again, no MM native attacks for a while and petless MMs are stuck with a pet they wanted to avoid.

 

So what if you can't pick those during character creation?  The point is that you have the convenience of picking the pet power at level 1 because of the luxury of the START vendor.

 

Pro-Tip:  You can sprint to the START vendor with little risk in the Galaxy City tutorial, get everything you want, then start pursuing the objectives from there.  That way, you can be close to the edge of the zone when you level up, then train quickly and maintain the inspiration bonus as you move to the next area to attack the various shivans standing around before you have to fight the big one.

[TheMoneyMaker]

8 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

Ninjas make no sense in this game at all. 

First of all, the point of a ninja was to spy, sabotage, or assassinate. So being obviously discernable as a ninja defeats the purpose. The image we have of the ninja in a black uniform likely never existed historically and was developed from theatrical performers (ie stage hands) that were visible in puppet shows, kabuki, etc. that covered up in black outfits to indicate that they were not part of the story. Occasionally, these guys would break the fourth wall and actually interact with the characters, hence the "ninja."

 

Secondly, spies would've used gimpy weapons like shuriken because they could be concealed. If you're going to be carting around a bow--don't bother with the ninja crap. Also, spies from that era would've used the best weapons they had available to them. In the modern superhero era that means guns at least. Malta are better ninjas than ninjas.

 

Regarding the rule of cool--ninjas were cool in the 80s. Even then, at the height of their popularity, they couldn't defeat Chuck Norris let alone a goliath war walker.

 

I remember one ninja story from my time in Japan. Some clan was hired to assassinate a lord in his castle. They got a small fellow to crawl down into a toilet and wait until said lord came in to take a dump. The the assassin shoved a makeshift spear up his bum. Sounds like a stalker to me!

words words words

 

Forget real ninjas, forget Hollywood ninjas and the rule of cool.....Only ninja logic that should be at play in a comic book superhero MMO is comic book ninjas.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

So what if you can't pick those during character creation?  The point is that you have the convenience of picking the pet power at level 1 because of the luxury of the START vendor.

 

Pro-Tip:  You can sprint to the START vendor with little risk in the Galaxy City tutorial, get everything you want, then start pursuing the objectives from there.  That way, you can be close to the edge of the zone when you level up, then train quickly and maintain the inspiration bonus as you move to the next area to attack the various shivans standing around before you have to fight the big one.

Which still leaves petless MM builds with unwanted pets that they have to take for the proposed pool sets to work. And regardless of how anyone other than the players that make those builds feels about those builds, the pool option takes that choice away from them. (Edit: And I will never support taking choices away from players.) (Edit again: And those would be START attacks, not MM attacks as well.)

 

Edited April 8 by Rudra

[TheMoneyMaker]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Which still leaves petless MM builds with unwanted pets that they have to take for the proposed pool sets to work. And regardless of how anyone other than the players that make those builds feels about those builds, the pool option takes that choice away from them. (Edit: And I will never support taking choices away from players.)

 

I'm a little fuzzy on this part. Explain how MMs having a separate pool of attacks to choose from forces them to take a pet power if they don't want one?

[Rudra]

Just now, TheMoneyMaker said:

I'm a little fuzzy on this part. Explain how MMs having a separate pool of attacks to choose from forces them to take a pet power if they don't want one?

The proposed pools moves the MMs native attacks from the primary sets into pool sets. With those attacks no longer in the primary sets, they can't be chosen during character creation. If they are pool powers, they can't be chosen until level 4. So the MM primaries would be:

 

Level 1     T1 pet

Level 6     1st upgrade

Level 12   T2 pet

Level 18   T7 power of set

Level 22   T3 pet

Level 26   2nd upgrade

 

The native attacks would all be stripped out and moved into mutually exclusive pools for selection from after creation.

[TheMoneyMaker]

59 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The proposed pools moves the MMs native attacks from the primary sets into pool sets. With those attacks no longer in the primary sets, they can't be chosen during character creation. If they are pool powers, they can't be chosen until level 4. So the MM primaries would be:

 

Level 1     T1 pet

Level 6     1st upgrade

Level 12   T2 pet

Level 18   T7 power of set

Level 22   T3 pet

Level 26   2nd upgrade

 

The native attacks would all be stripped out and moved into mutually exclusive pools for selection from after creation.

First of all, unless you are doing the coding, maybe you should avoid words like can't and phrases like mutually exclusive. Is there any reason why these pools, which I'm assuming would be exclusive to MM creation, couldn't be set to be picked at first level?

 

For example:

 

Level 1:  Primary (pet power) or MM Weapon (special pool choice that locks out other pool options the same way origin pools are mutually exclusive)

Level 1:  Secondary

Level 2:  proceed as normal with primary powers and weapon pool choice coexisting with all powers in both still locked in at minimum level requirements as if it were all in Primary only.

 

MM primaries would be reduced in the number of powers they have this way, but it wouldn't change how many powers you have access to. Some would be moved into a different category, but players could still have access to them with the same choice of attack or pet power. The only difference becomes that MM players would have more options, not fewer, by getting to choose the pool of attacks to go along with their choice of pets.

[TheMoneyMaker]

To clarify: yes, at character creation, we don't normally have access to pools. But once upon a time we also didn't have access to asymmetrical shoulders, gloves, and boot options. That was functionality added to the creator after HC took over. It could be entirely possibly to set it so that a MM attack pool category is selectable at 1st level whether you choose a power in it or not. And until a developer comes along and tells us unequivocally that it is not possible, then I don't think it's fair for you to argue what is or isn't possible.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

First of all, unless you are doing the coding, maybe you should avoid words like can't and phrases like mutually exclusive.

The poster for the pools called them mutually exclusive. So you can drop that criticism.

 

8 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Is there any reason why these pools, which I'm assuming would be exclusive to MM creation, couldn't be set to be picked at first level?

 

For example:

 

Level 1:  Primary (pet power) or MM Weapon (special pool choice that locks out other pool options the same way origin pools are mutually exclusive)

Level 1:  Secondary

Level 2:  proceed as normal with primary powers and weapon pool choice coexisting with all powers in both still locked in at minimum level requirements as if it were all in Primary only.

 

MM primaries would be reduced in the number of powers they have this way, but it wouldn't change how many powers you have access to. Some would be moved into a different category, but players could still have access to them with the same choice of attack or pet power. The only difference becomes that MM players would have more options, not fewer, by getting to choose the pool of attacks to go along with their choice of pets.

The poster calling for moving the attacks to pools is the one that assigned them to pools selectable as a regular pool. So if you want to present alternate method of MMs being able to select their weapon set? Go for it. That's the point of this thread. If you want to take exception to my pointing out the problems of moving MM attacks to power pools like the poster recommended in this thread? Then you should take the time to understand the arguments being made.

 

As I have already stated. I am not against MMs being able to choose their preferred weapons. I am not arguing against MMs being able to choose their preferred weapon sets. What I am doing is pointing out the problems of moving MM native attacks to power pools.

[TheMoneyMaker]

Just now, Rudra said:

The poster for the pools called them mutually exclusive. So you can drop that criticism.

 

The poster calling for moving the attacks to pools is the one that assigned them to pools selectable as a regular pool. So if you want to present alternate method of MMs being able to select their weapon set? Go for it. That's the point of this thread. If you want to take exception to my pointing out the problems of moving MM attacks to power pools like the poster recommended in this thread? Then you should take the time to understand the arguments being made.

 

As I have already stated. I am not against MMs being able to choose their preferred weapons. I am not arguing against MMs being able to choose their preferred weapon sets. What I am doing is pointing out the problems of moving MM native attacks to power pools.

You say you're not against it, but you argue against it from a disingenuous position. You either are a developer and know what's possible or not but are hiding behind a player account to dismiss the suggestion, or you are not a developer but are acting as though you know what can or can't be done.

 

Maybe it's time to stop arguing the point and let the suggestion stand on its own merit or maybe try contributing positively for a change instead of just trying to shoot down every idea.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

You say you're not against it, but you argue against it from a disingenuous position. You either are a developer and know what's possible or not but are hiding behind a player account to dismiss the suggestion, or you are not a developer but are acting as though you know what can or can't be done.

 

Maybe it's time to stop arguing the point and let the suggestion stand on its own merit or maybe try contributing positively for a change instead of just trying to shoot down every idea.

You want to talk about disingenuous? Show me where anywhere in this thread I have called out the OP, the request to let players choose their weapons for their MM characters, and stated that it cannot or should not be done. Anywhere at all. Because the only arguments I have made on this thread are that yes bow and arrow makes sense for a ninja character and that moving MM native attacks from the primaries to power pools runs up against multiple problems. What problems? Go back and read my posts. The only arguing I have done against the OP and its proposal that players should be able to choose what weapons with relevant attacks their MMs get is you reading into my statements what you want to see in them, not what I have said. I have not argued against @Annapuma because I wholly understand his/her/their desire for players to be able to use a bow as a beast master or a whip as a beast master or guns as a ninja caller or anything else. I didn't argue against @Wavicle for the epic set option because while it would be a long wait, the MM player would still be able to play however they wanted with the ability to change over to a different weapon set later. I specifically did not say @srmalloy was wrong or that his/her/their proposal can't be done or shouldn't be done or has any problems because @srmalloy addressed the potential problem in his/her/their option while still making it possible to either start with a pet or with your preferred weapon. The only thing I argued against is ninjas not making sense for using a sensible weapon, but not against them also having a shuriken option, and breaking down the problems of moving MM attacks into power pools for multiple reasons. Nothing in my statements claim giving MMs their choice of weapons (with relevant attacks) is not possible or should not be done. So kindly stop reading your own biases of my intentions into my posts when they are clearly not justified.

[TheMoneyMaker]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The proposed pools moves the MMs native attacks from the primary sets into pool sets. With those attacks no longer in the primary sets, they can't be chosen during character creation. If they are pool powers, they can't be chosen until level 4. So the MM primaries would be:

 

Level 1     T1 pet

Level 6     1st upgrade

Level 12   T2 pet

Level 18   T7 power of set

Level 22   T3 pet

Level 26   2nd upgrade

 

The native attacks would all be stripped out and moved into mutually exclusive pools for selection from after creation.

Tell me again how and why a specially designated pool of powers that are not the standard set of Pool Powers can't be chosen until level 4.

[TheMoneyMaker]

Again, I ask that instead of trying to shoot down ideas, maybe try contributing in a positive manner.

 

Use your great knowledge of the game's code to suggest how the idea could work instead of just dismissing it as not currently possible and thus it must be impossible.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Again, I ask that instead of trying to shoot down ideas, maybe try contributing in a positive manner.

 

Use your great knowledge of the game's code to suggest how the idea could work instead of just dismissing it as not currently possible and thus it must be impossible.

Conversely, how about suggesting ideas that actually work within the confines of how the game already operates, instead of trying to shoehorn in some kludgy system to fulfill a highly specific request that only impacts 1 AT...

Edited April 8 by biostem

[TheMoneyMaker]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Conversely, how about suggesting ideas that actually work within the confines of how the game already operates, instead of trying to shoehorn in some kludgy system to fulfill a highly specific request that only impacts 1 AT...

 

As for anything that impacts only 1 AT, then why not just do away with the mastermind AT altogether if nothing will ever be done for them since they're fairly unique? If the argument is that they can still gain new features from their shared secondaries, then I say they just aren't worth keeping around. Either give MMs SOMETHING for MMs after five years or just put them out of our misery.

Edited April 8 by TheMoneyMaker

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Again, I ask that instead of trying to shoot down ideas, maybe try contributing in a positive manner.

 

Use your great knowledge of the game's code to suggest how the idea could work instead of just dismissing it as not currently possible and thus it must be impossible.

 

If I had an idea about how to implement the OP, I would have. Because the only idea I had @srmalloy already pitched, I don't have any further ideas. While we are making requests of each other, how about instead of focusing on the fact I pointed out the potential problems of one of three proposals about how to make it work, you don't jump straight to "Rudra is simply disagreeing with yet another thread and trying to get it shut down" and actually look at what I am saying and why. And this derailment is now over. I will no longer engage with you on this thread.

 

Edited April 8 by Rudra
Edited place correct quote.

[TheMoneyMaker]

My work here is done.

[tidge]

7 hours ago, biostem said:

Conversely, how about suggesting ideas that actually work within the confines of how the game already operates, instead of trying to shoehorn in some kludgy system to fulfill a highly specific request that only impacts 1 AT...

 

^This^ sort of argument ("kludgy suggestion to get the one thing that will make the game better for some extremely narrow part of the game", often by an account with a rather low-ish number of posts) has got to be the number one reason why many long-time forum participants join into discussions... it's not because there is a cabal of nattering naybobs of negativism, its because so many of these types of suggestions are both/either kludges and/or missing the point about some key game factors.

 

Before tripling-down on a kludgey suggestion and attacking other forum participants, how about we read what those folks are saying?

 

Specific to *this* suggestion (My TLDR: "give some MMs weapons/attacks from other MMs"... my thoughts are "read the room"

1. MMs recently got a "balance pass", so radical changes to the powers in the AT are not likely
2. There are other ATs (besides MMs) that are just as restricted as far as "weapon types" (e.g. VEATS) so focusing on MMs is probably even more narrow than might be recognized
3. Players want Whip attacks, and have for a long time.

Whatever may or may not be happening in (closed) beta... I believe it is only a matter of time before HC releases a "Whip Attack" set. The animations exist, and HC recycles animations when possible. There are some obvious "gates" holding back "Whip Attack", with the number one thing probably being "How to build one (or more) 9-power set based on the Whip?"

 

Personally? I get the OPs dislike of the Bow attacks in Ninja! The discomfort I feel would be addressed by alternate animations and not by re-imagining the primary AND power pools.

 

[Rigged]

I'm posting just to say I really like this idea and want to add my vote for it.

 

I am also very aware that it would be a technical nightmare to implement and unlikely to be feasible so I am tempering my hopes accordingly.

 

But that doesn't mean I don't both hope for and want it.

 

EDIT: Actually while I am in this thread, since this is about the MM attacks: Perhaps it would enable the creation of new MM weapon pools, such as, for instance, an Arachnos Mace blasting pool so we can have some kind of continuity with our PPP. It's really awkward looking to be swapping weapons even if now we have seamless weapon draw.

Edited Saturday at 02:41 AM by Rigged

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Rigged said:

I'm posting just to say I really like this idea and want to add my vote for it.

Between the late hour and the little purple R avatar, I initially read this as a Rudra post. And, of course, reading these words as if they were typed by Rudra made me assume that Rudra had gone mad.

[Rigged]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

Between the late hour and the little purple R avatar, I initially read this as a Rudra post. And, of course, reading these words as if they were typed by Rudra made me assume that Rudra had gone mad.

 

Ugh the last thing I want is to be associated with Rudra. I've changed the color of my R.

[battlewraith]

On 4/8/2025 at 7:48 AM, tidge said:

^This^ sort of argument ("kludgy suggestion to get the one thing that will make the game better for some extremely narrow part of the game", often by an account with a rather low-ish number of posts) has got to be the number one reason why many long-time forum participants join into discussions... it's not because there is a cabal of nattering naybobs of negativism, its because so many of these types of suggestions are both/either kludges and/or missing the point about some key game factors.

 

Ummm...no. It can be both. 

 

Here are some things that I couldn't care less about and never have since 2004:

 

1. The amount of posts that an account has when making a suggestion. The arrogance of habitual posters thinking that, because they post more, they are more important than other players is not compelling.

2. The feasibility of an idea. Only the devs know this.

3. The likelihood of a suggestions being implemented. Under the present circumstances everything is pretty unlikely so it doesn't bear endless repeating.

4. The fact that other players want other things. So what? They can discuss those things in other threads.

 

If you find yourself gravitating towards 1-4, you could very well be a nattering naybob of negativism and should probably do some self reflection. 

[tidge]

Of course, there is code "in the wild" *and* the game has a long history of what has been added and what has changed that it is reasonable to extrapolated "what is feasible".

 

There is literally no bottom when considering "suggestions", no matter how hard someone claims to want certain ideas. Some oft-repeated suggestions are simply NOT going to happen even if they are feasible (e.g. "Bring back SG prestige"), and if players making those suggestion literally don't know why certain suggestions are a bad idea, they need to be able to tolerate feedback that opposes their idea.

[El D]

Not opposed to increased customization when it comes to weapon models and attacks, but mix and matching from outside set boundaries breaks any reason for there to be thematic differences in the first place. Sure, a player might be able to conceive of their own concept for a Thugs MM that makes sense with the Demon fire whip attacks, but the purpose of each set is to emphasize its specific theme rather than half-ass multiple ones.

 

It's far more likely that any unique MM attack animations, like the aforementioned fire whips, would be used in expanded ancillary power pools instead. Hell, having MM primary themed ancillary pools structured like the Patron Pools would be amazing alternatives. Demon Mastery could have two whip attacks, a fire armor/healing flames, a debuff power, and a demon summon (succubus or some hordelings, maybe). Thugs could offer dual pistols, Ninjas could have Archery, etc. Allows more mixing and matching but in a format that fits the game's established power design.

[FrozenSolid]

42 minutes ago, El D said:

Not opposed to increased customization when it comes to weapon models and attacks, but mix and matching from outside set boundaries breaks any reason for there to be thematic differences in the first place. Sure, a player might be able to conceive of their own concept for a Thugs MM that makes sense with the Demon fire whip attacks, but the purpose of each set is to emphasize its specific theme rather than half-ass multiple ones.

I think fitting thematically ultimately just comes down to how people play it... As one could argue against the whole Demon Summoning power set because it's not really fitting for Heroes, but it's an option. Same with stuff like Radiation powers.

[El D]

2 hours ago, FrozenSolid said:

I think fitting thematically ultimately just comes down to how people play it... As one could argue against the whole Demon Summoning power set because it's not really fitting for Heroes, but it's an option. Same with stuff like Radiation powers.

 

Alignment has nothing to do with a powerset embodying its particular theme, though. Powerset theme is composed solely of mechanics and SFX. The Demon Summoning powerset compromising it's core gimmick of 'You summon demons' by using pistols or an assault rifle is a broken core theme, regardless of the alignment of the character it happens to be on. Beyond that, basing prospective changes on whether a powerset is inherently 'heroic' or 'villainous' is a non-starter - that's a purely personal bias. As far as the game is concerned, any powerset is a heroic one if the player clicks the 'I'm a hero' button at the end of character creation. Nixing that nonsense as a basis for AT and power design is why we have Empathy on Corruptors and Pain Domination on Controllers and Defenders now.