Ironheart Trailer

[battlewraith]

53 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

That much is clear.

 

 

I don't think referencing a brief scene from Iron Man 2 is "complex background lore baggage".  They could do it as part of the title intro to set up the story, like they did with showing the accident that created the Hulk in The Incredible Hulk.  A lot, if not most, of the build up for Thanos was done in short post-credit scenes.  All they'd need to do is have one or two lines of dialogue to refer back to that Senate hearing scene in the story and that's the tie in.  No need to elaborate on it more.  The rest is a 100% self contained standalone story.  

 

Tony was a billionaire who owned the tech that he developed to become Iron Man. That clip is him refusing to share the tech with the US government. AFAIR the reason was that the  government couldn't be trusted with it. So RiRi working with Rhodey for the government runs against the grain of the clip you're referencing. Which is from 2010. 

 

All I've seen is the trailer for this show, so they will probably explain why she doesn't have funding. There are all kinds of reasons why government agencies/investors wouldn't pursue Iron Man style tech. Unless you're dealing with a Tony Stark level intellect, it's probably way more cost effective to mass produce robotic drones. And dealing with a Tony Stark intellect has a track record of being a pain in the ass. If she was working for someone like the government or a large corporation, she wouldn't own anything she made and it would be under lock and key at all times.

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Tony was a billionaire who owned the tech that he developed to become Iron Man. That clip is him refusing to share the tech with the US government. AFAIR the reason was that the  government couldn't be trusted with it. So RiRi working with Rhodey for the government runs against the grain of the clip you're referencing. Which is from 2010. 

 

Are you saying that Riri Williams isn't trustworthy?  Shuri and the Wakandan's didn't have any trust issues working with her and giving her access to their super advanced tech and labs.   The tech Wakanda produces is on par, if not superior to Stark tech.  Seems perfectly reasonable that Riri Williams getting a reference from Shuri would be more than enough to land her a job at Stark Industries, especially if she showed off the suit she built.  

 

As for the "running against the grain"... the government already owns/has possession of the War Machine armor.  Stark trusted Rhodey enough to let him keep the armor.  Probably several versions of it too.  Who is maintaining the War Machine armor then if no one in the government/military is allowed to touch it?  Somebody in the Air Force must be servicing and maintaining it if it's no one from Stark Industries.  Yes, the clip was from 2010, and in the clip Stark specifically mentions that the closest competition was 10 or more years away at that time from making a successful copy.  Here it is 15 years later and now there's competition.  Also, the government was keenly interested in the Iron Man tech and wanted Tony to turn it over.  Now they aren't interested in it anymore?  They just dropped because reasons?  They wanted the Iron Man armor, but won't want the Riri Williams Ironheart armor?

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

All I've seen is the trailer for this show, so they will probably explain why she doesn't have funding.

 

I'm sure they will.  I don't think it makes sense that she wouldn't have anyone backing her or wanting someone of her genius and talent working for them, if not for the prestige alone.

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

There are all kinds of reasons why government agencies/investors wouldn't pursue Iron Man style tech.

 

Such as?

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Unless you're dealing with a Tony Stark level intellect, it's probably way more cost effective to mass produce robotic drones.

 

Well, the trailer keeps telling us how brilliant she is and what a genius she is.  She's building her own version of the Iron Man armor.  Seems to me she's got a matching Stark level intellect.  That alone would make her very valuable and desirable to a whole lot of people. 

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

And dealing with a Tony Stark intellect has a track record of being a pain in the ass.

 

Eh, maybe.

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

If she was working for someone like the government or a large corporation, she wouldn't own anything she made and it would be under lock and key at all times.

 

Why would she need to own it?  And someone of her talents can't negotiate property rights? 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

And someone of her talents can't negotiate property rights? 

Law brains and tech brains don't always work well together. And it's not like universities haven't actively tried to rip off unsuspecting students' and researchers' work over the years. (Not to mention the universities' sponsoring corporate institutions like Google, Roche, and many others).

 

If you want a nicely capey example, Madey vs Duke (2002). In which Duke U tried to keep the designs and prototypes of two electron lasers for "experimental purposes" (while developing their own commercial versions.)

 

In that case, Dr. Madey lucked out with patent law and got his work and kit back.  Good thing all round, really.

I mean, imagine an experimental laser researcher with a grudge against the world...

...that's an origin story right there.

Edited Tuesday at 10:04 PM by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

I'm sure they will.  I don't think it makes sense that she wouldn't have anyone backing her or wanting someone of her genius and talent working for them, if not for the prestige alone.

 

Are you actually going to watch this? You kicked this thread off saying no thanks. 

 

You're pointing to a narrative expectation that you have--that based on what has happened before you would expect Riri to have funding and she doesn't. I get that but it doesn't bother me. There could be reasons why investors are not as hot to back something like that--the government already has a version, the technology is seen as too expensive, there are more attractive options available, etc. I only saw the first Black Panther movie, but I don't remember seeing a bunch of people running around in power armor despite their superior tech.

 

Moreover I think it's pretty clear from the trailer that they want to tell a story about this character doing things on her own. Dramatically it makes sense to distance her from the other films. I'm also not real worried about the continuity between the films and the Disney miniseries, any more than I expect comics to change tone, logic etc. every time a new writer comes on board. 

[battlewraith]

6 minutes ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Law brains and tech brains don't always work well together. And it's not like universities haven't actively tried to rip off unsuspecting students' and researchers' work over the years. (Not to mention sponsoring corporate institutions like Google, Roche, and many others).

 

Even something like videogame development. I was at a university once where a group of students were developing a game (not even, more of a mod for something) and a lawyer appeared at a meeting and informed them that the university would own the rights to this work.

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Not to mention the universities' sponsoring corporate institutions like Google, Roche, and many others

 

Very true and even more reason for her not having a sponsor a stretch.  Exceptional students are offered all kinds of scholarship deals, internships and such.  If she's this brilliant, she'd have some very interested parties wanting to work with her. 

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

I only saw the first Black Panther movie, but I don't remember seeing a bunch of people running around in power armor despite their superior tech.

 

How can you miss T'Challa running around in an indestructible nanotech vibranium suit that can harness and refocus kinetic energy or their robes that can project force fields?  Stark didn't have any of that until Infinity War. 

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

How can you miss T'Challa running around in an indestructible nanotech vibranium suit that can harness and refocus kinetic energy or their robes that can project force fields?  Stark didn't have any of that until Infinity War. 

 

I didn't miss it. It's not power armor. T'Challa was already superpowered without the suit and I think he was the only one wearing that type of outfit. Being able to to project force fields from robes supports my point--maybe going all in on an Iron Man style power suit is not the way to go. Maybe that's not as desirable an option in light of other tech that becomes apparent.

 

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

It's not power armor.

 

It's not exactly a set of fancy pajamas.  It's vibranium that is bulletproof and grants the user near invulnerability to physical attacks.  Sounds like armor to me.  It also grants the wearer the option of storing and releasing kinetic energy, kind of like how Iron Man was able to absorb and redirect thunder blasts from Thor.  They're not exact matches, but it is an armored suit.  Killmonger also had a vibranium armor suit as well.

 

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Being able to to project force fields from robes supports my point--maybe going all in on an Iron Man style power suit is not the way to go. Maybe that's not as desirable an option in light of other tech that becomes apparent.

 

That is certainly true.  But why does Riri Williams build an Iron Man suit then if there's better tech out there?  Especially since she'd already be familiar with it having worked in Wakanda and had access to their science and tech. 

Edited Wednesday at 02:06 AM by Excraft

[battlewraith]

7 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Sounds like armor to me. 

 

I didn't say it wasn't armor. I said it wasn't power armor. Nobody is going to mistake Black Panther or Killmonger for Iron Man. And if you put Tony Stark into one of those suits, the results would be laughable in comparison. 

 

14 minutes ago, Excraft said:

But why does Riri Williams build an Iron Man suit then if there's better tech out there?

 

Because someone thought it would be an entertaining story to tell. And superhero comics aren't exactly centered around practicality. 

You still get lame characters like Hawkeye on Avengers rosters.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

5 hours ago, Excraft said:

But why does Riri Williams build an Iron Man suit then if there's better tech out there? 

IMHO - I have no idea what's in the writers' heads at this point...

 

The MCU world has just been through a lot. Billions of people exterminated and then blipped back. Millions still died in incidents related to the Snap (eg: whoever was left on that unfortunate airliner that drops out of the sky at the end of Infinity War.)

After which, the Avengers buggered off. Tony and Nat are dead. Cap took a much deserved reward. Bruce's mostly retired. Thor left to walk the cosmos.

 

And when people are traumatised, they look for people to lead and protect them.

Not always the right ones, but you wanna know about that, hit up your library's history section.

And it's not always the right people who step up to try and fill that gap, either in capability or motivation.

(In-universe - Thunderbolts: Bob/The Sentry is shoved to the front by Valentina as a new superhero under her control. It goes badly. She then tries to front up the Thunderbolts crew and... well, given the end creds, nobody quite believes them.)

 

So people still need heroes. There are literal murals to Tony Stark all over NYC (and yes, it seems odd that people still live there, but when you've lived through the Summer Stench on Broadway or dealt with the Bronx Expressway, maybe eighty-foot intergalactic centipedes aren't quite as traumatic.)

 

Riri, understandably, would want to step up, and has an evident need to prove herself.

Whether Tony'd ever admit out loud she was an equal is one thing, though he always recognised game.

[Excraft]

3 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

And when people are traumatised, they look for people to lead and protect them.

Not always the right ones, but you wanna know about that, hit up your library's history section.

And it's not always the right people who step up to try and fill that gap, either in capability or motivation.

 

Wait, so Riri Williams isn't the "right kind of person" to be a hero?  That doesn't sound right.

 

3 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Riri, understandably, would want to step up, and has an evident need to prove herself.

Whether Tony'd ever admit out loud she was an equal is one thing, though he always recognised game.

 

Again, if people are desperate for heroes to protect them, why doesn't anyone want to help her out if she's willing to step up and help?  She's got the motivation, brains and the talent to dot it.  Absolutely Tony Stark recognized talent.  He can't be the one and only person in all the MCU to do so. 

[TTRPGWhiz]

1. Generally, trailers produce more questions than answers. Then you go see the movie and learn.

2. Sponsors and investors tend to make claims on what you do with their money because it’s their money. One might assume RiRi isn’t interested in that.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

12 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Wait, so Riri Williams isn't the "right kind of person" to be a hero?  That doesn't sound right.

Didn't say that.

 

There are many people throughout history (and stories, and comics) who people looked to for leadership and wound up becoming the villains.

Conversely, there are many people who never wanted to be heroes and wound up that way.

 

What RiRi is (or isn't) is up to the writers. The only thing we can say on her balance right now is that she has a (generally) good heart and good intentions...

...but is also ambitious, dislikes rules and strictures, and is prepared to take shortcuts to get where she wants.

 

Which makes Ironheart, in my humble opinion, the be careful what you wish for flavour of Hero's Journey story.

Hero sets out to do something. Hero takes unwise shortcut. Things go A over T: hero has to fix the problem they helped create.

Just now, TTRPGWhiz said:

One might assume RiRi isn’t interested in that.

You also have to play by their rules. Such as progress reports, expense claims, waiting on grant forms, so on and so forth.

 

So someone who's maybe a little bit distrustful of rules, bored by procedure and impatient to get where they want to be...

...might be tempted by an unfettered source of money from an apparently kindly sponsor with a similar attitude.

 

Take it from me: there is almost always a catch.

(In my case, having said funding source on the front page of the Financial Times. Not for good reasons. I mean, probably not in league with actual demonic forces: being a man of wealth and taste, I don't think Mephisto would have any truck with him.)

[ZacKing]

16 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Are you actually going to watch this? You kicked this thread off saying no thanks. 

 

To be honest, no I'm not going to watch it.  I'm clarifying why, which we are allowed to do here.  I can read a menu and see that I don't like the ingredients.  I don't need to taste the dish to know it doesn't appeal to my liking, and I'm absolutely allowed to let the chef know if a dish doesn't taste good.

 

16 hours ago, battlewraith said:

You're pointing to a narrative expectation that you have--that based on what has happened before you would expect Riri to have funding and she doesn't.

 

I'm thinking out lout about what I think might improve the story for me.  If you disagree, great!  Go right ahead.  I don't have expectations for this series.  I don't expect Riri to have any funding.  All I said was it seems strange that someone of her gifts wouldn't have anyone interested in backing her.  Athletes and exceptional students get free rides at universities.  I know people who have had private companies and government agencies pay for their doctorate degrees in exchange for a work agreement.  I understand that may or may not be what her character wants, but that makes her come across as a little arrogant to me.  It just seems odd is all.

 

2 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Which makes Ironheart, in my humble opinion, the be careful what you wish for flavour of Hero's Journey story.

Hero sets out to do something. Hero takes unwise shortcut. Things go A over T: hero has to fix the problem they helped create.

 

This has already been done multiple times over already in the MCU.  For me personally, I'd like to see something different. 

[battlewraith]

11 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

To be honest, no I'm not going to watch it.  I'm clarifying why, which we are allowed to do here.  I can read a menu and see that I don't like the ingredients.  I don't need to taste the dish to know it doesn't appeal to my liking, and I'm absolutely allowed to let the chef know if a dish doesn't taste good.

 

It's just not your thing. And you're helping us understand why it's just not your thing.

[TTRPGWhiz]

14 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

I'm absolutely allowed to let the chef know if a dish doesn't taste good.

For sure. But this is more like posting a(nother) negative review on the community board of a 300 person town. The chef ain't ever gonna read it, just potential diners. Also within your rights, but not at all the same thing.

 

Personally, I have no idea if I'll get around to seeing this or not; it's definitely not a priority, and I've kind of checked out on MCU movies the way a lot of MCU fans checked out on comics 10-25 years ago. But I don't find anything so off-putting about this trailer specifically that would lead me to an immediate and unqualified 'no'.

Thunderbolts looks cool I guess, I'm sure there will be a rainy day after it hits streaming when I'll check it out. I really like The Sentry mini-series, it'll be neat to see some of that come to life.
 

Edited Wednesday at 02:06 PM by TTRPGWhiz

[ZacKing]

35 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

But this is more like posting a(nother) negative review on the community board of a 300 person town.

 

You keep wanting to suggest that every post I make is negative.  That isn't true.  I can link you to many I've made over the years on the forums if you would like some examples. 

 

36 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

The chef ain't ever gonna read it, just potential diners.

 

I don't expect anyone from Disney or Marvel or in any way related to the content they produce to ever read a single word I post here, and I never suggested otherwise.

 

37 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Personally, I have no idea if I'll get around to seeing this or not; it's definitely not a priority, and I've kind of checked out on MCU movies the way a lot of MCU fans checked out on comics 10-25 years ago.

 

Thunderbolts looks cool I guess, I'm sure there will be a rainy day after it hits streaming when I'll check it out.

 

Same thing here.

[TTRPGWhiz]

10 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

I don't expect anyone from Disney or Marvel or in any way related to the content they produce to ever read a single word I post here, and I never suggested otherwise.

 

 

Maybe I made a bad assumption about who 'the chef' was in your analogy? Is it not Marvel / Disney?
 

[TTRPGWhiz]

18 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

I only saw the first Black Panther movie, but I don't remember seeing a bunch of people running around in power armor despite their superior tech.

 

This very much happens in the second Black Panther (well not 'a bunch', but a couple)

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Maybe I made a bad assumption about who 'the chef' was in your analogy? Is it not Marvel / Disney?

 

No worries.  The chef is just a chef.  The point was I can see from the menu (the trailer) that the ingredients aren't to my liking and that I'm allowed to discuss that.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.