Legendary 45% softcap... True/False/Sometimes/BS?

[Adeon Hawkwood]

29 minutes ago, Uncle Shags said:

Hold on...  This, and the"3rd Best" thing is a joke, right? 

Some people just like to compare the length of their controls.

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Let's try an explanation of sorts then...

So you've got a high-Defense Permadom with a procced out ST attack chain?

Great.

But you've stated above that this toon is sourcing at least some of their defense via set bonuses from using Purple sets in your Control Powerset abilities... which means that those abilities could potentially 

let me shut you down with this question.

 

Is there another reason a Dominator might want to slot Purple sets?

Edited 23 hours ago by Snarky

[Maelwys]

2 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Is there another reason a Dominator might want to slot Purple sets?

 

Sure! They match the curtains.

[Snokle]

12 minutes ago, Snarky said:

let me shut you down with this question.

 

Is there another reason a Dominator might want to slot Purple sets?

 

Purple is my favorite color and Dominator is my favorite AT? So making them purple is showing them my love?

[Maelwys]

 

 

[Snarky]

17 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

Sure! They match the curtains.

[shortguy on indom]

Warning Math Ahead:  For TLDR scroll down...or past. 
45% defense when solo, facing a single enemy:  (scenario: defeated everything but the remaining AV).
given:
    enemy +3/AV
    all enemies have = 0.5 BaseHitChance
    enemy's power inherent Acc = 1.0
    enemy RankAcc = 1.5
    enemy LevelAcc = 1.3
so:  Every attack from the enemy can hit only you, since there are zero other team members.

Estimated Probability of getting hit (when you have 45% defense):
Enemy AccMod = (enemy's power inherent Acc) X (enemy RankAcc) X (enemy LevelAcc)
    = 1 x 1.5 x 1.3                                      (note: these values taken from 'Attack Mechanics' wiki page).
    = 1.95
    = 0.95 due to clamping
New Enemy ChanceToHit = enemy AccMod x (enemy BaseHitChance - player's defense%)
    = 0.95 x (0.50 - 0.45)
    = 0.95 x (0.05)
    = 0.0475
    = 4.75%

 

Now the fun part:
Estimated Probability of toon getting hit in consecutive attacks:  Note: All attacks enemy has are 0.95 AccMod. (for giggles because if enemy's inherent Acc for various attacks is different, so everything changes).*
...it defaults to lowest ChanceToHit attack... the one with lowest inherent power Acc.
1st attack = 0.0475 = 4.75%
2nd = 0.0475 x 0.0475 = 0.0022 = 0.22%
3rd = 0.0475 x 0.0475 x 0.0475 = 0.0001 = 0.01%
4th = 0.000005 = 0.0005%
5th = 0.0000002 = 0.00002%
6th = 0.00000001 = 0.000001%
etc. it's basically all enemy whiffs.

 

The probability changes with different enemy powers if they (each) have a different inherent Acc.

 

Now lets take a step after and see what streakbreaker does... because this is how the game works:
https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics#The_Streak_Breaker
"The system does not track each power individually; instead it tracks every miss you (the ENEMY) makes in a row, regardless of power (or target)."*
when solo... same +3/AV and 45% defense conditions as above.
For any enemy whose "New Enemy ChanceToHit = 0.0475" is between 0 to 0.2 from chart above... = 100 consecutive misses allowed... then streakbreaker guarantees a hit on hit #101.*

 

So the probability of getting consecutively hit with is now looking like this due to streakbreaker:
*Remember this example is for solo play.  (when playing with a team, everything changes, because enemy counts misses and adds them up from different team members).
1st attack = 0.0475 = 4.75%  (this rounds to 5% which is always the minimum ChanceToHit).
2nd = 0.0475 x 0.0475 = 0.0022 = 0.22%
3rd = 0.0475 x 0.0475 x 0.0475 = 0.0001 = 0.01%
4th = 0.000005 = 0.0005%

...
*101st = 1.00 = 100%.

Every 101 times enemy attack will hit.  The chances of attack #1, #2, #3, #4 through #100 still may happen, but the chances happening are very very low.
100 misses and then get hit.  Rinse and repeat.

 

That 45% defense page from the wiki does not hold water.  I showed the only situation where it may work (that I can come up with) in the example above... solo play with enemy having only same inherent Acc in every attack power.

Edited 20 hours ago by shortguy on indom
0.0475 is not 0.475 long day.

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

Enemy AccMod = (enemy's power inherent Acc) X (enemy RankAcc) X (enemy LevelAcc)
    = 1 x 1.5 x 1.3                                      (note: these values taken from 'Attack Mechanics' wiki page).
    = 1.95
    = 0.95 due to clamping
New Enemy ChanceToHit = enemy AccMod x (enemy BaseHitChance - player's defense%)
    = 0.95 x (0.50 - 0.45)
    = 0.95 x (0.05)
    = 0.0475
    = 4.75%

 

 

Why are you clamping the AccMods before they get multiplied by the result of the ToHit-DefMods?

 

 

You should be clamping (BaseHitChance +ToHitMods - DefMods) to get the first initial unadjusted HitChance; then multiplying that by AccMods before finally clamping the result again.

AccMods doesn't get clamped at all before that final step.

 

 

 

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

 

The purpose of the two Clamping steps in the formula is to prevent the HitChances from going below 0.5% or above 0.95%. It's never to apply an arbitrary limit to whatever Accuracy Modifiers are currently affecting an Attack... because doing so would defeat the whole purpose of a creature being able to stack accuracy bonuses (it'd also become utterly pointless to have any attacks with an inherent accuracy above 1.0, because you'd just be clamping that accuracy at 0.95 all the time!!)

 

 

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

AccMods doesn't get clamped at all before that final step.

Here; I even found the relevant bit in the code for you so that you don't think I'm merely taking a Developer's word and the HC Wiki's word for it:



See that fAccuracyfactor compiled on the second line? That's your AccMods (both the power's and the attacking critter's)
On the very next line it gets multiplied by fToHit (so that the fToHit variable now contains the attack's raw ToHit value after AccMods; just like in the formula)
The clamping operations to impose minimum/maximum boundaries of 0.05/0.95 on that raw ToHit value take place afterwards.

[arcane]

12 hours ago, Championess said:

 

Dominators are pursuing defense powers to slot those Lotg's for their recharge.  Controls are well suited for purple sets since you need them anyways to build on their playstyle plus there's good defense bonuses in those sets. 

 

Your assaults are where you should be getting the offenses you were suggesting I'd be sacrificing on.  As an example my main 3 ST attack chain is proc'd out well along with my Dark Obliteration having 4 procs and my Soul Drain proc'd well.  You'd think I'd be sacrificing recharge/defenses I could build in these powers but no I'm going full offense on the powers I need to maintain offense.

 

Dominators are about being as efficient with your build as can be using an aggressive control offense paired with the defenses you're taking built on subtly with some targeted bonuses.

 

Seeing first hand how well I can do offensively/control wise while maintaining tippytop defenses its hard for me not to come to the conclusion of why not having your cake and eating it too?

I’d definitely need a screenshot to understand these alleged mythical builds where opportunity costs don’t exist. 

[Snokle]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I’d definitely need a screenshot to understand these alleged mythical builds where opportunity costs don’t exist. 

 

I would agree with @arcane, as most time, you are only getting the res epic armour as that is a Dom really needs, as the control powers and assault damage is the focus. Most of the defence powers being slotted for LoTG are usually mules, maybe some slotting at best. Most people I have seen post in the Dom boards who give out great advice and who have solid builds usually have DEF % around 15-20 % at best.

 

People are using click powers or Incarnates when they have oh-ho moments, for the momentary burst. But the idea of a 45% def, with tonnes of procs, and recharge (if this is what your implying) is something to show.

[MoonSheep]

12 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Most of my own Doms end up with at least ~15% Defense; because stuff like Combat Jumping and Maneuvers and the two +3% Def Globals are low hanging fruit... but I rarely intentionally push it higher (unless I opt for a Defense based Epic rather than a Resistance one; which is almost never!) because achieving Permadom + Strong Controls + Strong Single Target Damage Output + Strong AOE Damage output simply doesn't leave me enough wiggle room on most builds.

 

this is the approach i take for most characters also. 15-20% is a good amount, a medium purple insp contributing an extra 33% keeps the alt nicely safe when needed

 

allows for a lot of freedom in the overall build to maximise output and have fun

 

building for defense is a legacy strategy that is no longer relevant in HC. /ah before missions is the mighty equaliser 

[Jacke]

22 hours ago, Snarky said:

...like trying to explain all of Calculus in 5 words.  You are either a genius speaking to another incredibly intuitive genius.  Or... 

 

Values to rates and reverse.

 

Admittedly, it takes a few more words to really understand it.  😺

 

 

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

Values to rates and reverse.

 

Admittedly, it takes a few more words to really understand it.  😺

 

 

Infinite approximation through mathematical analysis.  To which the supra genius (prob Dr Who). Would be like “of course, i see it now.  Give me a sec to work out the proofs for 3D vector analysis…”

[Jacke]

2 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Infinite approximation through mathematical analysis.  To which the supra genius (prob Dr Who). Would be like “of course, i see it now.  Give me a sec to work out the proofs for 3D vector analysis…”

 

Funny you should mention that.  Got later Calculus mixed up with some stuff from a course I took a long time ago.  But it was about stuff like fiber bundles and how both Differentiation and Intergration could be seen as Vectors and....  I'm sorry, just don't remember enough.  But damn, I wish I could....  Still remember even longer ago how hard I struggled to learn Calculus all on my own.  Stumbled upon a book that helped, but didn't learn it well enough until I took a course that included it and all the precursor topics you need to know....

 

 

[arcane]

Since we’re talking Dominators mine are usually sitting at about 5% defense (CJ/Stealth) and 0% resistance 🙂 

[Snarky]

56 minutes ago, arcane said:

Since we’re talking Dominators mine are usually sitting at about 5% defense (CJ/Stealth) and 0% resistance 🙂 

Wait …. We were discussing dominators?

[tidge]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

I’d definitely need a screenshot to understand these alleged mythical builds where opportunity costs don’t exist. 

 

Those builds are from Canada and they play on another server, so you wouldn't know them.

[Snokle]

6 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Wait …. We were discussing dominators?

 

Sorry, did you get confused?

[shortguy on indom]

• CAN YA FEEL IT YET?

[Maelwys]

17 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• CAN YA FEEL IT YET?

[Snokle]

9 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

 

[Championess]

17 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Let's try an explanation of sorts then...

So you've got a high-Defense Permadom with a procced out ST attack chain?

Great.

But you've stated above that this toon is sourcing at least some of their defense via set bonuses from using Purple sets in your Control Powerset abilities... which means that those abilities could potentially be dealing more damage with the same level of Control Duration if you had frankenslotted them with procs and HOs instead of using those sets. Possibly even whilst maintaining Permadom; depending on the sets in question. So by definition your Dominator build has sacrificed additional damage in exchange for additional defence.

I'm not saying that's not a worthwhile sacrifice (because I do exactly that sort of thing myself on many toons... and in many cases what I'm getting is far more valuable to me than whatever I'm giving up!) merely drawing attention to the fact that building an efficient powerful toon is a balancing act. Because to raise a toon's overall performance you will almost always have to give up some of its potential in more specific areas (and obviously the trick is to pick areas that you don't personally place much worth in - if you have a min/maxed ST attack chain already then more ST damage output will be mostly irrelevant to you!)

Most of my own Doms end up with at least ~15% Defense; because stuff like Combat Jumping and Maneuvers and the two +3% Def Globals are low hanging fruit... but I rarely intentionally push it higher (unless I opt for a Defense based Epic rather than a Resistance one; which is almost never!) because achieving Permadom + Strong Controls + Strong Single Target Damage Output + Strong AOE Damage output simply doesn't leave me enough wiggle room on most builds.

 

Typically I never use my ST controls as damage and especially not if I'm looking to pump out real good damage.  Your assault powers are far better suited to do damage if that's what you're wanting both in terms of internal numbers and proccability.  If I'm using a ST control beyond the stuns I get from Total Focus its to stop a runner or something annoying me or an AV.

 

That's not to say I don't put procs into longer recharging aoe controls where all those hold procs are far better suited to fire.  Generally I pair real good defenses with my proc'd aoe hold as I jump into a mob that way I can go right to blasting and if the aoe control may have missed a target or two they're no real threat with good defenses running.

 

For two slots extra in some controls you'd slot a purple set into anyways to at least 5 you can pick up 10% ranged defense from Ascendancy and Contagious.  Then there's global resistance uniques yes.  Also you're likely taking CJ, Stealth, Manuevers and some other defenses to let you slot your 5 Lotg's.  I mean just right there that's 25-30% ranged defense at barely any extra cost so why not.  

 

[Championess]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

I’d definitely need a screenshot to understand these alleged mythical builds where opportunity costs don’t exist. 

 

I can do you one better I play on Excelsior I can give you a tour of some +4x8 radios.  My Mind/Nrg dommie is well tested against 4stars and those old Linea AE missions.

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, Championess said:

 

I can do you one better I play on Excelsior I can give you a tour of some +4x8 radios.  My Mind/Nrg dommie is well tested against 4stars and those old Linea AE missions.

I am sure you handle radios just fine. That doesn’t mean you aren’t sacrificing offense/speed for defense because… that would be impossible.

 

Not sure why 4 stars would be brought up at all since no serious 4 star build pursues defense bonuses.

Edited 5 hours ago by arcane