I am done with Brutes

[SomeGuy]

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

First of all, a note of self-correction: there are "only" 49 Scrappers whose times are better than the best Stalker on your list.

 

Second:  There are 55 Stalkers on your list, from a wide variety of players.  It's not like there was zero interest in validating Stalkers.  And again, people here are claiming that Stalkers have strongly superior ST DPS to Scrappers -- of 55 tries from dozens of players we are saying that despite Stalkers actually being strongly better than Scrappers at this, none of them could get into the top, say, 20?  Does this actually pass the sniff test?

 

Third:  What actual affirmative evidence does anyone have that Stalkers have better ST DPS than Scrappers?  Like, I think that the pylon times are pretty good evidence.  I'll also say that my own experiences with Stalkers -- I like Stalkers and have played a bunch of them -- have never suggested to me that holistically they had superior ST DPS than an equivalently-optimized Scrapper (I have also played a bunch of Scrappers).  I'm seeing a lot of people assert that Stalkers outclass Scrappers here, cite no evidence, and then try to come up with elaborate theories for why the other evidence shouldn't count.  But is there any affirmative evidence that Stalkers in fact have better ST DPS than Scrappers?

 

Fourth:  I think the relatively larger number of people interested in optimizing Scrappers for pylons than Stalkers is a pretty straightforward story:  people tried both, found that Scrappers were superior, and then the kind of player who wanted to post a really good pylon time focused their efforts on the AT that was best for the job.

 

Fifth:  I mean, are you willing to apply this kind of logic to any other combo of ATs?  Maybe Brutes actually outclass Scrappers in ST DPS!  Yes, okay, Scrappers post better pylon times than Brutes, but aren't all of your above arguments equally valid if you plug in the word "Brute" for Stalker?

 

 

I actually did make a EM/FIRE stalker out of curiosity. I didn't realize the stalker version of Fire Armor was so neutered DPS wise. With that said, I'm not sure how to simulate the 7x teammate boost without multi boxing. I do suspect the AT would noticeably pull ahead after X amount of teammates. How many? Not sure.  I'll start with three total and see where it goes.

 

1/2/3 I'm with you quite a lot regarding "stalkers do better ST DPS then scrappers"? I haven't seen enough empirical evidence. Only a lot of anecdotal. And...considering there are still a lot of people claiming certain sets are really good I don't necessarily have a lot of faith in the opinions of a lot of players (to be fair, some of those sets have recently gotten some really good attention).

 

4 This was legit my reason to gravitate to scrappers. I just like the scrapper class more. I LOVE the stalker playstyle, but lack of taunt aura for almost all of them, the lack of AOE, and paper thin health pool pushed me over to scrappers. This is why I am really sad about the current state of brutes in comparison to scrappers and tankers. The AT doesn't bring enough to the table for me to choose them over a scrapper or a tanker. Stalkers at least can play quite differently then scrappers. That's a big difference for someone like me. 

 

5 bwahaha 

 

I know some people think this is wildly off topic since this is a brute thread, but I really do believe stalkers are a good example of being different enough to justify certain aspects of the AT. Maybe brutes need something like that.

 

[skoryy]

[tidge]

From a dusty corner of my memory, I want to say that long ago one of the primary reasons 'performance time' measures focused on Scrappers over Stalkers was that the optimization of the Stalker ATOs (to yield increased DPS) was both narrower (in terms of choices) and more difficult than leveraging the Scrapper ATOs. I believe it was Brutes (with Fury) and Scrappers (leveraging ATOs) simply have more design space (in attack chains) to work with.

 

And FWIW, this doesn't mean I think the Scrapper Superior ATOs are over-powered.

[aethereal]

6 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

I know some people think this is wildly off topic since this is a brute thread, but I really do believe stalkers are a good example of being different enough to justify certain aspects of the AT. Maybe brutes need something like that.

 

Totally agree.  That was why I brought it up.  I think that Stalkers are, numerically, as bad off as Brutes are or worse, but they play differently than Scrappers, while Brutes play largely the same as Tanks and Scrappers, and I think that makes all the difference in terms of people's overall satisfaction with the AT.

[Sancerre]

On 8/14/2025 at 9:31 AM, tidge said:

From a dusty corner of my memory, I want to say that long ago one of the primary reasons 'performance time' measures focused on Scrappers over Stalkers was that the optimization of the Stalker ATOs (to yield increased DPS) was both narrower (in terms of choices) and more difficult than leveraging the Scrapper ATOs. I believe it was Brutes (with Fury) and Scrappers (leveraging ATOs) simply have more design space (in attack chains) to work with.

 

And FWIW, this doesn't mean I think the Scrapper Superior ATOs are over-powered.

 

the scrapper superior ATO is indeed over-powered.  the feeling people get describing a different playstyle with scrapper is because this ATO warps gameplay around it.  just like the stalker ATOs, but my personal opinion is that the stalker ATOs feel more balanced or have a healthier curve associated with it (?) - hard to describe.  i dont think the scrapper ATO should need to be nerfed anyways.  scrapper magic is in playing the crit casino.

 

On 8/14/2025 at 11:03 AM, aethereal said:

 

Totally agree.  That was why I brought it up.  I think that Stalkers are, numerically, as bad off as Brutes are or worse, but they play differently than Scrappers, while Brutes play largely the same as Tanks and Scrappers, and I think that makes all the difference in terms of people's overall satisfaction with the AT.

 

i think a lot alt-itis folks that try out scrappers and stalkers get this perception that stalkers do more damage than scrappers because the stalker ATOs 'unlock' stalker gameplay even at the rare version (orange), but scrappers dont really feel this performance shift 'unlocked' until the very rare (purple) version.  so if you never fully flesh out your scrapper at 50, you dont feel that impact of playing the high roller crit casino, especially with power combinations that can abuse FF recharge adjacently.

 

and meanwhile, brutes are just brutes.  there is nothing there that differentiates them playstyle wise.  yes fury exists as a theme, but it literally just exists.  you dont 'manage' fury.  it floods up to 85-90 very quickly and then it exists there without thought... and you can look at the extra resource bar oscillate between 85-90 for fun i guess.

 

anyways, in regards to stalker, i think an interesting take-away from the scrapper vs brute debate is that nobody is really looking to acknowledge stalker as a 'threat' to brute identity... or even just the numbers for that matter.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Sancerre said:

and meanwhile, brutes are just brutes.  there is nothing there that differentiates them playstyle wise.  yes fury exists as a theme, but it literally just exists.  you dont 'manage' fury.  it floods up to 85-90 very quickly and then it exists there without thought... and you can look at the extra resource bar oscillate between 85-90 for fun i guess.

 

I remember an early play experience with a Brute (like... back on live, I can't remember when but probably 2010 or so) where I really felt like I was killing it but I was pushed into the next group early in order to keep my fury high.  It was distinctive and fun.

 

But the much faster overall pace of play means that's not accessible now.  Everyone careens from group to group without pause.  Brutes need a new identity because their old one has been overtaken by the state of the game.

[tidge]

9 hours ago, Sancerre said:

the scrapper superior ATO is indeed over-powered.  [...] and meanwhile, brutes are just brutes.  there is nothing there that differentiates them playstyle wise. 

 

By all accounts, Scrappers without the "overpowered" ATO would underperform Brutes.

[Sancerre]

44 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

By all accounts, Scrappers without the "overpowered" ATO would underperform Brutes.

i would argue brute is better than scrapper before purple scrapper ato already.

 

agreed with you anyways -- and that is why the ATO should not need to be nerfed.  if they did want to nerf it, they should buff scrapper baseline in compensation... just round out some of the volatility of playing scrapper.  the ATO, as a standalone, is incredibly overpowered though -- i dont think there is a stronger single enhancement you can slot in the game.  ** FF recharge proc is quite overpowered as well as a close second **

Edited Saturday at 11:09 PM by Sancerre

[aethereal]

Scrappers should in fact get some baseline bonus in exchange for reducing the power of the +50% crit rate ATO.  Lower the power of the tip top of Scrapper builds and increase the power of less optimized ones.

 

For people who argue that Scrapper doesn't depend on the ATO to hit benchmarks, I would genuinely enjoy seeing some tests without it slotted.  My guess is that Trapdoor times would be worse but not catastrophically so, but pylon times would crater.

 

People could also see what they get from a non-superior ATO to split the difference between using it and not slotting it at all.

 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by aethereal

[SomeGuy]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

pylon times would crater

 

 

 

Scrappers were getting really good pylon times well before an ATO2 for ALL classes was even in the game. DB/ELE scrapper was actually doing the best times for melee (not counting TW and the rain bug allowing ss/fire brutes to smoke it). I had the best time for a moment with a STJ/EA stalker until someone really figured out DB.

 

So I suppose when you say "crater" it depends on your personal definition how far they would slide. 

 

Regardless, calling for a nerf when other stuff clearly needs to be adjusted up is very closed minded. TW needed a nerf. Tankers needed a nerf. Both of them were vastly over tuned. So much so that it made other sets/ATs feel pointless.

 

No class needs their ATOs nerfed. Classes need their ATOs adjusted up. The Brute ATO2 is a standout example of that. Yea, ATO1 for brutes is "meh" but at least it actually contributes. Only for the very short term when beginning a fight, but it's something (the more I think about this the more I feel like it's just an insulting ATO). 

 

Also, it is interesting to me someone actually considers the FF Recharge proc overpowered. I use it in only one of my builds and I *do not* rely on it going off. And well...I'm a pretty darn amazing player and builder. I can just gesture to my signature below and you will see I have MANY examples or I could wax poetic about the all the crazy things I've pulled off in this game

Edited 18 hours ago by SomeGuy

[normalperson]

Gotta remember one thing about being "overpowered" -   This is a superhero game. 

 

Stalkers massively underperform on teams - but you know the player didn't choose the AT for that.   They choose it because they think it is fun, and because their concept of "superhero/villain" is a ninja.            They work way better in single player than a scrapper does, though.      And they can be great on teams, if you realize that your role is "kill the boss" and just focus on achieving that. 

 

Damage comparisons will always "spread sheet" best for long, sustained fights          Brutes have the best performance in a very long fight because of Fury.         Scraps do ok both in long fights and short fights.           Stalkers perform best in very very short fights. 

 

But, all three lengths of fight exist in the game. 

 

[tidge]

4 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Also, it is interesting to me someone actually considers the FF Recharge proc overpowered. I use it in only one of my builds and I *do not* rely on it going off.

 

I find %+Recharge to be unreliable, so there are only limited circumstances when I include it:

• I have a Dominator that has exceeded perma-dom without Hasten, and it is in the zone where an unfortunate combination of a Slow and an animation might delay domination
• A character has relatively few attacks, such that a little bit of +Recharge gets something else ready

I can see how it can shave some time off certain content, but generally I've found that any slot dedicated to that piece is better suited for something else (or somewhere else) that serves the character across a wider range of content (via set bonus, or even something like a Defense mule, slow resist, whatever).

[aethereal]

4 hours ago, normalperson said:

Stalkers massively underperform on teams - but you know the player didn't choose the AT for that.   They choose it because they think it is fun, and because their concept of "superhero/villain" is a ninja.            They work way better in single player than a scrapper does, though.      And they can be great on teams, if you realize that your role is "kill the boss" and just focus on achieving that. 

 

Damage comparisons will always "spread sheet" best for long, sustained fights          Brutes have the best performance in a very long fight because of Fury.         Scraps do ok both in long fights and short fights.           Stalkers perform best in very very short fights. 

 

This is all just incorrect to a greater or lesser degree.  Like, I don't know that that really makes a difference for your overall point, but to be clear, both Stalkers and Scrappers have better sustained DPS in long fights than Brutes do, and the days of Brutes needing a longer fight in order to build fury are over.  Team performance is hard to judge, but my general feeling is that with the crit chance bonus, at least some Stalkers are perfectly capable of being highly contributory in an AoE-heavy team environment (but one should realize that in a lot of team situations, no melee is going to beat out a nuke-using ranged AT).

[Sancerre]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I find %+Recharge to be unreliable, so there are only limited circumstances when I include it:

• I have a Dominator that has exceeded perma-dom without Hasten, and it is in the zone where an unfortunate combination of a Slow and an animation might delay domination
• A character has relatively few attacks, such that a little bit of +Recharge gets something else ready

I can see how it can shave some time off certain content, but generally I've found that any slot dedicated to that piece is better suited for something else (or somewhere else) that serves the character across a wider range of content (via set bonus, or even something like a Defense mule, slow resist, whatever).

 

for context hasten provides 70% global recharge.  the proc provides 100% (for 5 seconds).  the FF recharge proc was important enough for Ston to literally list out how many times it proc'd in his pylon tests.  he has a column for it.  is it up permanently in combat? No -- but if you make a proper build intending to utilize it... and you have a powerset that can utilize it... you can easily have 50%+ active uptime on the proc while in combat for single target affairs.  in saturated aoe content, you are virtually guaranteed it goes off on every use of axe cyclone, for example.  im not sure where you draw the line at reliable vs unreliable here.

 

**to also acknowledge Ston also made a separate column for -res procs that are very meaningful in sustained duration pylon tests but far less useful in actual combat against anything smaller than elite bosses (regular bosses arguable).  -res and global recharge are apples and oranges here, before anyone tries to make a comparison.

 

Do you need to use FF recharge?  Do you need to use Hasten?  the other way to look at this situation is -- we dont need to be concerned about shaving some time off certain content.  ok fair take.  why is concerned that brute might be slower at clearing certain content than scrapper by any metric.  well turns out we dont need to be concerned about shaving time off certain content.  case closed.  mystery solved.  turns out scrappers brutes tankers and stalkers were all equally just as good all along, dont worry about the details.  nothing more to discuss here folks!

 

**btw what are you doing with your 'defense mules'?  lotg 7.5% recharge perhaps?

[tidge]

I'm not going to rehash arguments about how I don't see solo pylon or trapdoor runs as offering a large amount of insight about utility of certain build choices for most of the game. When I'm playing the game, I'm stopping to chat, do some inventory management, whatever... and AFAIK none of the Ston tests include anything like social interaction. There is more to Quality of Life than trying to have fastest solo times... literally no one know how a solo times compares unless someone comes to brag or goes looking to complain about performance.. which is certainly valid, but not for sub-60 second times IMO.

 

What am I doing with an extra slot? Could be almost anything! Tanks and Brutes can benefit a lot from a second %Heal. Low-DPS characters can use an Explosive Strike instead of %+Recharge. Most characters can benefit from Slow Resists.

 

20 minutes ago, Sancerre said:

..turns out scrappers brutes tankers and stalkers were all equally just as good all along, dont worry about the details.  nothing more to discuss here folks!

 

For level 50 characters, that is pretty much my attitude with respect to DPS. When you can add non-changeling Kheldians, VEATS and Controllers to that list, let me know... otherwise complaining about mere percentages in different times and trying to make grand pronouncements about how any of those ATs are under-/over-performing is IMO silly.

[aethereal]

10 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Scrappers were getting really good pylon times well before an ATO2 for ALL classes was even in the game. DB/ELE scrapper was actually doing the best times for melee (not counting TW and the rain bug allowing ss/fire brutes to smoke it). I had the best time for a moment with a STJ/EA stalker until someone really figured out DB.

 

So I suppose when you say "crater" it depends on your personal definition how far they would slide. 

 

I would expect that Scrappers would do worse than Stalkers and similar to Brutes, without the ATO2.  With possible exceptions for DB and Claws which can really leverage the Scrapper scalar with their large +damage.

 

But I'd be interested to find out for real.

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

For level 50 characters, that is pretty much my attitude with respect to DPS. When you can add non-changeling Kheldians, VEATS and Controllers to that list, let me know... otherwise complaining about mere percentages in different times and trying to make grand pronouncements about how any of those ATs are under-/over-performing is IMO silly.

This.

 

 

[SomeGuy]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

For level 50 characters, that is pretty much my attitude with respect to DPS. When you can add non-changeling Kheldians, VEATS and Controllers to that list, let me know... otherwise complaining about mere percentages in different times and trying to make grand pronouncements about how any of those ATs are under-/over-performing is IMO silly.

 

 

VEATs are represented. In fact, some of the best DPS is by them. Controllers are also on that list. I know I have personally done crazy times with controllers. I played controllers extensively and consider it a VERY good and powerful class utilized well. I've solo-ed Apex with both VEAT and controllers. Hell, solo-ing Apex used to be my own personal metric if a build was good enough to me. That's not something I suspect I could do with just using a build with a Brute or Stalker.  I haven't tried it, but I suspect I wouldn't want to pull my hair out doing that with my ELE/TW (or RAD/SS) tanker. 

 

There probably is, but I'm not sure how much representation is being done by HEATs. I myself personally never gravitated towards the AT and playstyle, despite my strong efforts to click with the AT when the class was first introduced. If the AT doesn't have a lot of representation, don't blame any one person. There just isn't a lot of people testing it out that way. 

 

The pylon (and former trapdoor) list are very good at giving a non-anecdotal SNAPSHOT of performance in a bubble. It absolutely does not give an overall view, but the information gathered can give some sort of insight what you can possibly expect. The pylon test specifically, doesn't really factor in how valuable things like soft-CC (ice patch/shockwave) or hard-cc (holds pretty much) are. Things like Domination are a waste when it comes to pure DPS measurements. 

 

Long and short of what I am trying to convey, I am trying to get across the Brute AT needs something. Yes, it does better ST DPS then a tanker (roughly 25%...not a small amount to me). It's up to the player to determine if it enough to justify playing a brute over a tanker. I personally do not. I'm noticing about a 1 minute with ST DPS with the two ATs. Considering they have almost identical play styles, yet tankers are MUCH more survivable then brutes, I haven't measured the different between the two ATs with AOE DPS. That will be a MUCH more substantial time investment. The thing I have already noticed is that I have a EM/FIRE brute and FIRE/EM tanker. Both are built similarly. Very similar. Yet there is no way whatsoever I would attempt to do a lot of things with the brute that I wouldn't even consider an issue with the tanker. 

 

Dark Melee is measurably a bad performer. Yet I still play it a lot. Easily one of the most fun sets for me to play. Same with Ice Melee (even though its DPS performance isn't anywhere near as bad as DM). The sets have fairly different playstyles compared to other stuff. It's why I imagine some people main Khelds. The playstyle is VASTLY different. 

 

Brutes need something to justify them. Right now, to me, they don't.

 

[skoryy]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

I'm not going to rehash arguments about how I don't see solo pylon or trapdoor runs as offering a large amount of insight about utility of certain build choices for most of the game. When I'm playing the game, I'm stopping to chat, do some inventory management, whatever... and AFAIK none of the Ston tests include anything like social interaction. There is more to Quality of Life than trying to have fastest solo times... literally no one know how a solo times compares unless someone comes to brag or goes looking to complain about performance.. which is certainly valid, but not for sub-60 second times IMO.

 

I play on Everlasting. I do RP mission teams. Most of my gaming are PUG teams from LFG. I exemplar. I mentor. I've dragged through a Posi-1 with 31 defeats on one day and swept through a Posi-2 in less than a half hour the next.  An RP buddy of mine has had a 50 for over a year and didn't even learn of IOs and builds until recently. I go through a lot of different missions with a lot of different teammates, and I don't even think there's any simple testing you can do to balance around all of that.

Edited 1 hour ago by skoryy