How would you nerf tankers?

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

In my game play, and that's the only situations I speak of, when I build a tank specifically for teaming, and taking the hits - this is true for me. My dark tank missed Dark Consumption before tackling Trapdoor, and I couldn't kill him. Even my defenders, controllers and Sentinels pre-change could kill trap door. 

Conversely, if I build them for solo play and dps, it's not a problem. Some of this is no doubt my own problem for trying to create one build for a purpose, rather than a more generic build for more utility. 

These changes...they are not made keeping the casual player in mind. Maybe the casual player wouldn't even notice. No idea. But this is a change that most folks don't want to think about when making and playing a character. I won't pretend to be smart enough to know a better way. 

 

My guess would be that building to play exclusively on teams or only solo would be the far less common way to build a character, but heck if I know how to substantiate that.

 

What I don't get, is why one would do so given every character has the option for multiple builds they can swap between every 15 minutes. So even if focusing on a style of play is what one wants to do, you can still have one character who can change their style.

[Soulsifter]

 Is this a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to tankers being prime farmers now? Seems so. In order to get them that way they are niche in that they would be "ok" on teams but not optimal. Too much "grass is greener (meaner)" meddling because of a vocal minority is the downfall of many MMO's. Regardless of this being a "free" game, it still relies on fan support to operate. Alienate them and you are now the caretaker of an MMO grave plot. 

 

I'd hate to see something I've rejoined after a long hiatus die the death of a thousand cuts. Sometimes, near enough is good enough.

[tidge]

18 hours ago, Soulsifter said:

 Is this a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to tankers being prime farmers now? Seems so. 

 

I think it is impossible to say, although there have been changes targeted specifically at 'farming'. I'm more inclined to believe that there were a few devs and dev-adjacent folks that were probably surprised that Tankers matched (and in some content, *1) exceeded the performance of Brutes... and of course the Brute champions have been very vocal about this. The scale-back of the way the Gauntlet radius buff interacts with PPM makes complete sense, but everything else feels like "putting Tankers in their place (according to somebody's vision)". 

 

The Controller AT changes and Tanker changes really ought to have been in different "pages" IMO. I don't think anyone cares if Tanker/Scrapper/Brute times-to-complete (for full builds) are within a minute of each other... unless there is some abstract argument about someone else needs to be 'best' (per that metric). I like Controllers a LOT, but solo leveling can be a real slog at times, in way that isn't (currently, pre-p2) for the melee classes (or Blasters).

 

(*1) I can't even imagine which content the devs are focused on for their swings at (re-)balance. Not everyone rushes to 50, not everyone farms, not everyone does 45+ content, not everyone uses IOs, not everyone plays the new HC content. If it were up to me, I'd focus on bringing the low-performers (in terms of mission time completion) up, rather than knocking ATs down. Specifically over-tuned powers deserve taps from the Nerf bat (ehem, Seeds of Confusion) when they get in the way of balance considerations for new sets.

[Uncle Shags]

Well, it's been quite a roller coaster over the last two weeks, but if this latest build is sent to live I think I'll be happy with it.  My main tank's clear times went from 6min, to a depressing 8.5, and now back to 6.5.  6.5 feels ok.  I'm still very slightly disgruntled, because 6min for that mission is already below average and I'm still not convinced an AT wide damage reduction was necessary, but I'll take it.  Could be much worse.

 

The bigger hit I've taken is to my faith and trust.  It seems like, in the end, the devs were receptive and reasonable.  And there's a ton of good stuff in Page 2.  It's great, and I'm thankful.  But.... This tanker thing?  I just wish it didn't take dozens of pages of debate, how many hours of shared testing, fighting amongst ourselves, and all the unnecessary ill will towards the dev team along the way to get us to this point!  I can't help but wonder, "How the hell did that ever make it out of closed beta?!"  I'll try not to hold a grudge, but it kind of feels like, "Yeah, you didn't stab me, but you had the knife, and you were definitely THINKING about it!"  I don't want a sour taste in my mouth, but it is what it is...  It'll wear off, I'm sure.  Especially if there are some upcoming buffs to some underperformers!

 

Thanks to all those who fought the good fight.  In the end, reason, truth, fairness, and justice won!  Very fitting...for those of us who play hero-side.  =P

[WumpusRat]

On 6/15/2025 at 3:14 AM, tidge said:

Never forget that the game's rewards are 99.9% tied to defeating enemies, so there should be NO cause for concern if a whole bunch of similar ATs have nearly identical "clear times" by whatever metrics once they have access to all of their primary/secondary powers. When we see full-kit builds using Epics, Incarnates, and IOs finishing identical content within a minute of each other... this is NOT something to get ego-bruised if a personal feeling that "X should be faster than Y" isn't born out by that result. The 0.1% not strictly tied to defeats is the rando Prismatic reward tied to mission completion.

 

I think I'm really curious as for the people arguing balance back and forth if they're comparing the ATs and builds and such the way balance is supposed to be achieved?

As in, SO's only. No IO sets, no incarnate powers, no temp powers, etc.

 

Cause just from personal experience, I think it would shake out a lot differently if people were using purely SO'd builds instead of fully tricked out ones.

[tidge]

4 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

 

I think I'm really curious as for the people arguing balance back and forth if they're comparing the ATs and builds and such the way balance is supposed to be achieved?

As in, SO's only. No IO sets, no incarnate powers, no temp powers, etc.

 

Cause just from personal experience, I think it would shake out a lot differently if people were using purely SO'd builds instead of fully tricked out ones.

 

I think you are correct. IOs, and IMO the lowering of levels at which powers can be chosen, further reduce how much certain ATs are 'valued' for even more content than just 45+ when incarnate powers come into play. It was always true that exemplaring down (with slots and more inspirations) was good... now exemplared characters have access to T9s for even lower level content. BTW: I think the lowering of the power choice levels was a good thing, some of my ATs used to really flounder for some lower level content when exemplared... I point this out because it was a dev choice that directly reduced the disparity (for much more content) between ATs like Tankers/Brutes who have flip-flopped primaries and secondaries.

 

Writing for myself: %proc damage gets some amount of hate, but I find the PPM %damage to be one of the few ways the lower-performing (DPS-wise) ATs can stand a chance to finish most content within an order of magnitude of other ATs... and I'm NOT thinking about +4x8 content when I write this! At the 'finish content uber-fast' end of the spectrum, I simply don't care if a bunch of fully-tricked out solo-ists all finish some content within a minute of each other. The ATs that can already do excellent amount of damage don't need to rely on %damage, and through build choices can concentrate on something else.