Are Tankers still the "hit more enemies" AT? A spreadsheet.

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

I have noted I don't think farming was a consideration. Not sure why so many have leapt to that.

 

It's not a leap.  I explained that up thread.  I specifically pointed out why I think farming and x8 soloing allow Tankers an advantage.  The devs also allude to this in the patch notes by pointing out that AoE saturation is what allows Tankers their edge.  Not going to repeat myself any more than that.

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

The argument about 'roles meaning less damage for some' has a fundamental flaw: 99%+ of the game's rewards are based on defeats from dealing damage... so for solo play, I like when similar ATs achieve similar completion times for similar rewards.

 

It's not a fundamental flaw.  It's an opinion.

 

My favorite AT in this game after a brief stint post beta and then returning for City of Villains... was Stalkers.  And Stalkers suuuuuucked at everything but ganking people in RV.  Now this many years on, Stalkers are in a much better place.  But they don't really compete on solo clearing +4/x8 do they?  Should they?  It's never bothered me that they don't.   I like HOW they play.  I don't feel bad that they can't hoover up a fire farm full of bad guys as easily as a Brute or a Tanker.

 

So yeah, I know you think it's a flaw.  I don't.  It's a difference of opinion and that's cool.   If I want to solo, I pick an AT that's good at soloing the same way I pick a Stalker for stabbing bosses in the back and a Tanker for laughing when people stab me in the back.

[ShardWarrior]

6 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

I have noted I don't think farming was a consideration. Not sure why so many have leapt to that.

 

Of course it was. 

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Of course it was. 

 

So Brute, who were top farmers, did not get nerfed, but Tanker, who took the spot when improved some number of years ago--and it was years at this point--have drawn one.

 

Yeah....

[ShardWarrior]

Right because there were just so many people complaining that some tankers can solo the Trapdoor map faster than a Brute or Scrapper can and that is just unfair.....  Yeah...  These measures are absolutely meaningless in a team setting.  Most meta content runs do not even allow you to bring a tanker or melee in general.  There are Hami runs going on all the time where people are discouraged if not outright not invited to the league if they bring something other than DPS.  How fast or slow a tank solos the Trapdoor map is absolutely meaningless to them.  

 

I personally could care less how fast or slow one AT or the next solos a specific map.  I could care less if tanks could farm faster/better/more efficiently than Brutes could.  What I do care about is that my tankers now feel less powerful and thereby less fun and now take longer to run content that I like to run.  These are disincentives for me, so as I said before, thank you for that.  If the HC goal was to make tankers less fun, then well done.  Mission accomplished.   I can easily switch to a Brute or Scrapper, at least until someone decides their Trapdoor clear times are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent too fast...

Edited yesterday at 03:37 AM by ShardWarrior

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

Right because there were just so many people complaining that some tankers can solo the Trapdoor map faster than a Brute or Scrapper can and that is just unfair.....  Yeah... 

 

Were people complaining about farming? No. Then your own logic has hung your position.

 

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

These measures are absolutely meaningless in a team setting. 

 

Farming is meaningless in team situation too, but supposedly it mattered to what occurred. You're not exactly being consistent here--is it teams are the only thing that matter or farming was too good? 

 

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

I personally could care less how fast or slow one AT or the next solos a specific map. 

 

Then why are you complaining about what changed? Tanker damage on teams is an afterthought, surely? Your role is to hold aggro and survive. Nothing in that regard has changed.

 

 

Edited to be less confrontational

Edited yesterday at 05:27 AM by Erratic1

[Kai Moon]

I didn't want to get too opinionated because I don't play tankers much. But if you want it...
 

It's reasonable to say powers in the left column hit more targets. Radius up, target cap up too. Only 1 power per set, if any, but it's something.

 

Powers in the right column, obviously no.

 

Powers in the middle columns... a mixed bag. I had to get creative to test if Head Splitter hits 10 targets. It can, in theory. In practice, come on.

 

Big picture, there are five power sets with no power in the left column. Battle Axe, Electrical Melee, Spines, Stone Melee, Super Strength. All those sets have 15' radius powers in the third column, target caps increased from 10 to 16. Maybe that's something.

 

Except... for Electrical Melee, that power is Lightning Clap - the high knockback, no damage power. That makes Electrical Melee the odd one out. I can't say "Electrical Melee tankers hit more targets than other ATs" with a straight face just because of Lightning Clap.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Kai Moon said:

Powers in the middle columns... a mixed bag. I had to get creative to test if Head Splitter hits 10 targets. It can, in theory. In practice, come on.

 

Were you actually able to hit 10 targets with all the others?  Because unless I misunderstand how cones work, I'd be surprised if you could hit 10 with Proton Sweep or Jacob's Ladder.  At least from a standing position without attempting any cone-extend shenanigans.

 

Since I haven't played my Axer yet since the patch, I was slightly surprised perusing CoD to find that Pendulum was nerfed like a cone even though it's a sphere AoE around the target.  I guess it's considered a pseudo-cone though, so it got "narrower".  But what even is going on with Cleave?  It's now a 3ft radius sphere AoE around the target instead of a cone???  That can't be right, can it?

[ShardWarrior]

9 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Were people complaining about farming? No.

 

Right.  No one is ever complaining about farming ever.  HC has never made changes to the game because of farming.

 

9 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Farming is meaningless in team situation too, but supposedly it mattered to what occurred. You're not exactly being consistent here--is it teams are the only thing that matter or farming was too good? 

 

You have completely misunderstood my post regarding the use of Pylons and Trapdoor.   Try reading it.  How much damage and how fast a Tanker can clear the trapdoor map is a meaningless measure.  

 

9 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Then why are you complaining about what changed?

 

I explained this already.

 

11 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

What I do care about is that my tankers now feel less powerful and thereby less fun and now take longer to run content that I like to run.  These are disincentives for me, so as I said before, thank you for that. 

 

[lemming]

9 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

HC has never made changes to the game because of farming.

I mean they have done some.  Moved AE out of Atlas & Mercy,   Emp Merits not being convertable to Reward, No XP rewarding double Inf, for some.

 

For power changes though, I think they haven't made many changes based off farming.  Some of them have impacted farming such as the -Def from some fire attacks.

 

What I'm saying, I don't think the Devs target farming deliberately, but if something they want to change impacts farming, they're not as concerned.  At least that's how it feels to me.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

What I'm saying, I don't think the Devs target farming deliberately, but if something they want to change impacts farming, they're not as concerned.  At least that's how it feels to me.

 

Okay, everybody needs to stop fixating on farming.  I am the one who first mentioned it in this thread and I very explicitly said BOTH farming AND x8 soloing.   It can very much be the case the devs do not care a whit about farming over-performance and only did the nerf because they care about x8 soloing over-performance.  I mentioned both simply because both are situations that match the devs' stated reason for the nerf: That being, continuously saturated over-cap AoEs on Tankers (i.e. 10 targets on cones, 16 on spheres).

 

I would be curious to know if they had data other than Ston's to back this up.  Because it's generally all players and posters on these forums talk about when trying to make the case that "Tankers out-damage Brutes".   In fact, this only happens in cases where they CAN keep those AoEs always hitting max targets.  And where is that besides farming and/or herding solo team-sized content?   Any other team I am on invariably devolves into spawns that I can get a few good capped hits in on before half the spawn is dead or scattered... or never came together in the first place because Stoner McStoneycages used his favorite power like he does every spawn.  The devs even called this their intended outcome from the original Tanker buff: i.e. That we'd see a big start with big AoEs but that they'd taper off as enemies were defeated or scattered, at which point the ATs who specialized more in solo and small-group damage per swing would outpace us.

 

This is not to mention that even if a Tanker does solo faster... so what?  Is soloing not an endeavor that involves both offense and defense?  How are we just handing that one to Brutes without comment when it involves the specialties of BOTH archetypes?  And what the data that Ston took did say was that the two ATs were within TWO percentage points on average in that test.   Considering the sample size, you might even have called that a tie among all three of the melee ATs that partook.  What exactly was the problem there?

[MoonSheep]

21 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Recall that Brutes were conceived as the heavy melee of redside back when the sides were strictly separated.  They weren't always an in-between AT.  That came as a result of the unification of the game.  So now they are absolutely an in-between melee AT.  Less durable than Tankers but more durable than Scrappers.  Hence their damage output should be somewhere in-between those as well.  And that does appear to be the case on Pylons.  Stalkers don't show an average here but glancing through the times (too lazy to compute) they look pretty similar to Scrappers.  And Stalkers really are pretty close to Scrappers in durability as well now-a-days.  

 

Basically, Brutes were always doing more damage per target and only lost when Tankers are able to hit more targets than Brutes could.  So these Pylon results were a proxy for not just ST performance but also any time the Brute could hit as many targets as the Tanker, which happened most often against single or at least less than 6 enemies.  And that happens plenty in teams where spawns can be scattered or just not willing to clump up for nice big AoE disposal 100% of the time.  This is why farms are so ridiculous.  They are designed precisely to feed the meat-grinder an endless stream of capped AoE destruction.

 

that’s a good point about brutes being separate from scrappers and tanks before CoV combined, thanks for taking the time to give a detailed response mate 👍

[Maelwys]

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

But what even is going on with Cleave?  It's now a 3ft radius sphere AoE around the target instead of a cone???  That can't be right, can it?

 

Yup.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Cleave

• Changed from a cone to a targeted AoE sphere attack with a 3ft radius.
• Range increased to 40ft (not enhanceable).

 

 

[ZemX]

34 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

But what even is going on with Cleave?  It's now a 3ft radius sphere AoE around the target instead of a cone???  That can't be right, can it?

Yup.

 

Huh... weird.  I somehow always thought it was a cone.  I guess the text description of the power was never updated.

[Gobbledigook]

7 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Okay, everybody needs to stop fixating on farming.  I am the one who first mentioned it in this thread and I very explicitly said BOTH farming AND x8 soloing.   It can very much be the case the devs do not care a whit about farming over-performance and only did the nerf because they care about x8 soloing over-performance.  I mentioned both simply because both are situations that match the devs' stated reason for the nerf: That being, continuously saturated over-cap AoEs on Tankers (i.e. 10 targets on cones, 16 on spheres).

 

I would be curious to know if they had data other than Ston's to back this up.  Because it's generally all players and posters on these forums talk about when trying to make the case that "Tankers out-damage Brutes".   In fact, this only happens in cases where they CAN keep those AoEs always hitting max targets.  And where is that besides farming and/or herding solo team-sized content?   Any other team I am on invariably devolves into spawns that I can get a few good capped hits in on before half the spawn is dead or scattered... or never came together in the first place because Stoner McStoneycages used his favorite power like he does every spawn.  The devs even called this their intended outcome from the original Tanker buff: i.e. That we'd see a big start with big AoEs but that they'd taper off as enemies were defeated or scattered, at which point the ATs who specialized more in solo and small-group damage per swing would outpace us.

 

This is not to mention that even if a Tanker does solo faster... so what?  Is soloing not an endeavor that involves both offense and defense?  How are we just handing that one to Brutes without comment when it involves the specialties of BOTH archetypes?  And what the data that Ston took did say was that the two ATs were within TWO percentage points on average in that test.   Considering the sample size, you might even have called that a tie among all three of the melee ATs that partook.  What exactly was the problem there?

Other clear time and pylon tests were done also and you will find a corruptor will destroy any Tanker/Brute in clearing both of them it seems lol. No one seems bothered about that, but lets pick on Tankers instead. 

 

My defender will clear a Pylon as fast as my tankers and easily kept up clearing maps pre nerf. Extremely survivable and buffs/heals the whole team and is ranged also....priceless.

 

So what are they looking at nerfing next? Brutes?! lol. I won't object 🤣

 

Perhaps i should show some Corruptor clear times and get them nerfed and hopefully @Snarky will be happy another main is nerfed 😛

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Gobbledigook

[Erratic1]

40 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

My defender will clear a Pylon as fast as my tankers and easily kept up clearing maps pre nerf.

 

If your Defender, who does not have expanded area or target caps, was keeping up with your Tanker pre-nerf, you were doing something wrong on your Tanker.

[Gobbledigook]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

If your Defender, who does not have expanded area or target caps, was keeping up with your Tanker pre-nerf, you were doing something wrong on your Tanker.

I guess you need to be there. Primary helps a bunch.

 

Hmmm don't defenders/corrs/blasters get more anyway than melee lol?

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Gobbledigook said:

I guess you need to be there. Primary helps a bunch.

 

Hmmm don't defenders/corrs/blasters get more anyway than melee lol?

 

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