Tankers - So Where are we at?

[Warboss]

Hi all,

After all is said and done. Where exactly are we at?  What nerfs went through, and what was rolled back? What I know, is my Tanks are not like they were prior to the patching/"fixes", and Ground Zero still doesn't work right. Is there a consolidated thread that shows exactly where we're at, or can someone who has ferreted out the information post so I can tell what is causing what I'm seeing?

 

Did the Damage Scalar reduction go into affect, or was it rolled back?

Where are we at with the Damage mechanics for AoEs?

Were the AoE Distances dialed back? (looks like cones have been nerfed into idiocy)

There were other issues as well (certain powers affect, like GZ), but I can't remember them all right now. Things seemed to get pretty confused right before the release.

 

Any info or links would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

Edited June 29 by Warboss

[Maelwys]

20 minutes ago, Warboss said:

Did the Damage Scalar reduction go into affect, or was it rolled back?

Where are we at with the Damage mechanics for AoEs?

Were the AoE Distances dialed back? (looks like cones have been nerfed into idiocy)

There were other issues as well (certain powers affect, like GZ), but I can't remember them all right now. Things seemed to get pretty confused right before the release.

 

So first they took away the global radius/arc buff (which was previously part of Gauntlet).

 

Then they went through and manually increased the base radius (but not the arc) of most Cones and AoEs... which resulted in a reduction of their base damage as well as their proc activation rate. And at the same time they introduced a reduction to all damage (including proc damage) dealt by both AoEs and Cones to targets beyond the regular target caps (eg 11+ for AoEs and 6+ for Cones).

 

Then there was outcry.

And much testing.

Then several cycles of tweaks, each followed by yet more testing. 

 

 

The TL;DR of it all is:

 

+ The manual increase to base radius for Cones (and the resulting Damage Scalar and Proc activation rate reductions) effectively all got reverted. So compared to before the patch Tanker Cones have lost their global buff, and now currently possess the same radius and arc as on other ATs.

 

+ The manual increase to base radius for AoEs technically still remains in effect, however at the last minute (the night before golive!) the Devs raised their base damage to compensate. So compared to before Tanker AoEs with a base radius of <15ft really just now have a slightly lower proc rate.

 

+ Whilst the higher target caps remain in effect for both Tanker AoEs and Cones, "Overcap" targets (meaning anything beyond the base caps so targets 11+ for AoEs and 6+ for Cones) now take only 33% damage from the attack itself as well as any additional sources like Incarnate Interface DOTs and Damage Procs.

 

 

 

I wrote a fair bit about all the various bits during the Beta Feedback thread.

 

Here's a summary of the original changes:

 

 

Then they reverted the Cone radius changes:

 

Although it took them a few tries to catch them all

 

 

Then they finally raised AoE base damage:

 

 

 

 

The nature of the "Overcap" damage reduction fluctuated a bit too- originally it was two different scaling exponential curves, one for AoEs and another more harsh one for Cones.

 

 

Then they changed it to a flat -67% damage reduction for both.

 

 

I'm still personally in favour of toning the Overcap reduction down a bit (to ~50%)... but to be fair to the Devs, they did listen to feedback and reverted the base damage reduction to AoEs and Cones, instead letting the Overcap reduction be responsible for the vast majority of the "tanker damage nerfs". And that has made the impact (i) far milder than it would have been, especially to those who don't regularly saturate their AoEs (e.g. soloists and non-farmers!) (ii) much more even across all powersets. The radius changes were originally disproportionately negatively impacting specific powersets like Staff and TW.

 

 

[Maelwys]

Regarding "other things"... there were lots, but the main ones that might have impacted proc damage output for a Tanker are:

 

 

The Proc Damage bug (which was fixed prior to i28p2 hitting live)

 

 

 

And the Ground Zero proc activation rate bug (which a fix has been found for but hasn't quite made it to live yet)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Warboss]

Thanks for the response. I'll have to look it over vs what I'm seeing in game. Right off the bat, I agree with you on the Overcap daamge. 33% is a bit low for AoE specialists.... ST seems low to me too. Not sure why since it looks like the bulk of the adjustments were for AoE/Cones.

 

[Maelwys]

20 minutes ago, Warboss said:

ST seems low to me too. Not sure why since it looks like the bulk of the adjustments were for AoE/Cones.

 

 

Single Target damage shouldn't have changed, aside from very minor differences to "damage buff" and "resistance debuff" scales. Perhaps if you're a Bio/SuperStrength Tank with double stacked Rage plus Evolving Armor and Epic pool Melt Armor... maybe.

 

On Brainstorm back before they'd sorted out the Cone and AoE base damage changes my Bio/Staff Tanker's ST damage output was noticeably weaker since it's attack chain relies on two cones... but it's been fine on live.

[Biff Pow]

My Inv/SS Tank now has a 90% damage bonus with Rage running instead of 100% which barely makes a difference except I really liked that round number.

 

(Yes, I could find another 10% in bonuses but I like my build as is.)

[DarknessEternal]

So was Radiation Therapy impacted on procs?

@Maelwys

Edited June 29 by DarknessEternal

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, DarknessEternal said:

So was Radiation Therapy impacted on procs?

@Maelwys

 

Yep.

 

Twice, actually.

 

The power got the "reactive recharge" treatment, which means Proc activation rate dropped a good bit.

It went from from 90% (@60s base rech) to 46.72% (@25s base recharge)... and then later on to  28.7718% (@15s base recharge).

So procbombing it is pretty worthless now, but slotting it for damage and healing and recharge aspect works out pretty well. 

There's a breakdown in the link below.

 

And on top of that, all damage dealt by RT to foes beyond the first target is subject to the same sort of reductions as "Overcap" Tanker AoEs.

This started off as a scaling exponential -30% reduction, then got reduced slightly to a scaling exponential -25% reduction.

 

The silver lining is that RT is now a LOT better than before for damage mitigation (eg healing over time) especially whenever you only have a single target nearby. And its damage dealt when fighting lower numbers of targets is still pretty decent (after I adjusted my Scrapper's slotting... compared to before vs one target its damage per activation has dropped slightly but damage per second has more than doubled; however vs 10 targets it's dropped to roughly a quarter of the damage per activation and a third of the damage per second)

 

 

It also got a +Regeneration buff baked into it on all ATs (previously it was only giving this on Scrappers but not on the rest!)

 

 

 

The good news is that there appears to be an intention to undo some of the negative impact to procs (the proposed change was going back to a 25s base recharge rate)

 

 

 

But this has been put on hold until a future "balance pass" patch because there are currently more than enough other things for the Devs to worry about.

 

 

Edited June 29 by Maelwys

[Uun]

17 hours ago, Warboss said:

Did the Damage Scalar reduction go into affect, or was it rolled back?

There's a lot of confusion about this. A change to the tank damage scalar was never contemplated (and obviously never went into effect). What they changed was the tank Melee_Buff_Dmg modifier, which was decreased from 1.0x to 0.875x. This effects damage buff powers like Build Up, Rage and Soul Drain (but not Assault).

[Warboss]

Some thing still seems off. I can't put my finger on it, but ST attacks seem to be doing less damage (more attack cycles to take out bosses and above). I don't have a great deal of time to work on this, so if anyone else sees this please chime in.

 

1 hour ago, Uun said:

There's a lot of confusion about this. A change to the tank damage scalar was never contemplated (and obviously never went into effect). What they changed was the tank Melee_Buff_Dmg modifier, which was decreased from 1.0x to 0.875x. This effects damage buff powers like Build Up, Rage and Soul Drain (but not Assault).

 

Yes, there has been a lot of confusion about this and most to the changes proposed. I do recall seeing somewhere a chart that showed the various AT Scalars, and at that time. It showed the Tank Scalar as .95. I don't have the source atm, so I can't link it. It was in the forums somewhere, maybe under the Beta section.

Edited June 29 by Warboss

[Hopeling]

The tanker damage scalar has been 0.95 ever since it was raised from 0.8 in i26p4. That just means tanker base damage is 95% of what a blaster would do with the same (melee) power.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Warboss said:

Some thing still seems off. I can't put my finger on it, but ST attacks seem to be doing less damage (more attack cycles to take out bosses and above). I

There were no changes to tanker ST damage. Other than change to the buff modifier discussed above, the only other change was a reduction in the -res modifier. This is pretty niche and I believe only affects Bio.

[tidge]

On 6/29/2025 at 5:44 PM, Uun said:

Other than change to the buff modifier discussed above, the only other change was a reduction in the -res modifier. This is pretty niche and I believe only affects Bio.

 

Wasn't this also carried over to any of the Pool powers that affect -Res? e.g. Weaken Resolve.

[ZemX]

56 minutes ago, tidge said:

Wasn't this also carried over to any of the Pool powers that affect -Res? e.g. Weaken Resolve.

 

Doesn't look like it.  Weirdly, there seem to be several modifiers that can be used by powers for -res effects.  Evolving Armor uses melee_debuff_res_dmg.  That one was nerfed to match the other melee ATs.  

Weaken Resolve, for whatever reason, uses ranged_res_dmg modifier, which has not been touched.  Staff's Eye of the Storm bonus in Form of Body stance uses melee_res_dmg modifier to do -10% res for Tankers and -7.5% for the other melee ATs.  Hasn't changed.  I don't know what the reasoning here is unless it was to JUST nerf Bio.

[Uun]

19 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Weaken Resolve, for whatever reason, uses ranged_res_dmg modifier, which has not been touched. 

Same for Melt Armor and Tar Patch.

[Paragon Vanguard]

On 6/29/2025 at 11:16 AM, Warboss said:

Some thing still seems off. I can't put my finger on it, but ST attacks seem to be doing less damage (more attack cycles to take out bosses and above). I don't have a great deal of time to work on this, so if anyone else sees this please chime in.

 

You aren't wrong. Something is definitely off. I played my Invul/SS tanker yesterday and it was amazingly stupid how long it was taking to kill a boss. I did not consider the changes until reading this thread, I just knew it was very off. Going to see what I can tweak but it don't look like much I can do to get more damage. 

Edited July 7 by Paragon Vanguard

[DarknessEternal]

Rage lost damage.

[Maelwys]

13 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Rage lost damage.

Rage went from +80% to 70% damage per stack, so that's a loss of 20% for the double stackers. Realistically with Musculature and ED-capped damage aspect enhancement that'll result in going from ~385% damage to ~365% damage, or a proportional drop in damage output of ~5.19%. 

Whilst yes it's a nerf, it's hardly "amazingly" lower. And Damage Procs and Set bonuses and Assault Hybrid and Interface Incarnate abilities etc etc will all lessen the impact.
 

Edited July 8 by Maelwys

[Paragon Vanguard]

15 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Whilst yes it's a nerf, it's hardly "amazingly" lower. And Damage Procs and Set bonuses and Assault Hybrid and Interface Incarnate abilities etc etc will all lessen the impact.
 

I am good with other's opinions, but lets not lessen what has occurred. They "fixed" something that did not need to be fixed. No one was going all tanker all the time, Brutes still made up a better amount of toons, and I still got a little more out of my own Brutes before the "fix". If we don't say something, and just act as if it is okay, then how can anyone know the problems it causes with wanting to play a tank? 

 

Are you suggesting tanks now lower their survive-ability just to kill a boss? Should we max our damage resistance at 80% so as to get the extra damage that would not equal Brute's damage? Aren't Brutes maxed at 80%, with their damage intact? 

I apologize if my response seems condescending, it is not intended. I am merely trying to understand why anyone playing a tank would think this was a good idea? I can't lessen the impact without losing other aspects, making the impact the same.

Yes, amazingly lower. I was literally amazed. 😮 

 

And don't get me wrong....I have had to tweak here, tweak there, especially with set changes, just to get toons where I want them, but I can't fix this without losing something else in a maxed out tank that SHOULD NOT have to be tweaked at all. 

 

Just my 2 cents, and trust me, I know it usually isn't worth a dime! 🙂 

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, Paragon Vanguard said:

They "fixed" something that did not need to be fixed. 
...
I am merely trying to understand why anyone playing a tank would think this was a good idea?

Because it did need to be fixed.

I have already posted detailed explanations of the WHY:
 

But to restate the most relevant bits:

In i26p4 Tankers got their base damage buffed and their damage limit increased and their target caps increased and their cone arc size increased and their AoE radius increased and their buff modifiers increased and their power ordering tweaked to provide better AoE capability.

 

Tanker:

• Ranged damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.8, Melee damage modifier increased from 0.8 to 0.95,
  • Bruise has been removed in favour of a flat damage scale increase.
• Buff modifiers increased to match Controller values.
• Damage buff cap increased from 400% to 500%.

 

AoEs

• Most Tanker Melee AoE powers have had their target caps increased. 
  • Most cones now have a 10 target cap. 
  • Most PBAoEs now have a 16 target cap.
• Tanker now gets an inherent buff to the radius of AoE attacks and arc of cones.
  • +50% for AoEs.
  • +50% for cones.
  •  Some powers are unaffected by this buff. This is noted on the power description.

 

Power Acquisition Levels

To improve Tanker AoE capability during level up progression, the following powers had their acquisition levels changed:

• Battle Axe > Whirling Axe = 20, Swoop = 28
• Martial Arts > Dragon Tail = 20, Focus Chi = 28, Crippling Axe Kick = 35
• Stone Melee> Tremor = 28, Hurl Boulder = 35 
• War Mace > Whirling Mace = 20, Clobber = 28

 

Overnight Tankers almost closed the gap on the other melee ATs in terms of Single Target damage; and began dominating in terms of AoE damage.
At least when you discount ATOs.

Tankers needed their AoE damage output reduced because it was outright mechanically unbalanced (bigger target caps + larger coverage range + high base damage) compared to other ATs, which was causing a total nightmare for the Devs whenever they were trying to balance individual powerset performance across multiple ATs.

 

 

3 hours ago, Paragon Vanguard said:

Are you suggesting tanks now lower their survive-ability just to kill a boss? Should we max our damage resistance at 80% so as to get the extra damage that would not equal Brute's damage? Aren't Brutes maxed at 80%, with their damage intact? 

I apologize if my response seems condescending, it is not intended. I am merely trying to understand why anyone playing a tank would think this was a good idea? I can't lessen the impact without losing other aspects, making the impact the same.

Yes, amazingly lower. I was literally amazed. 😮 

Hyperbole notwithstanding, it's worth pointing out that the current reductions in damage are a minute fraction of what was originally being proposed on Test.

We repeatedly talked them out of the severe and unbalanced nerfs because hordes of us tested the crap out of them and mathed and graphed it all out.
The devs engaged and apologised and explained things (including addressing requests about rebalancing individual powersets like SS) and asked us for testing results including very specific same-powerset-across-different-AT tests ...and eventually the vast majority of the proposed nerfs were undone and we were left with what hit live.


Yes, Tanker Damage has been nerfed.

However a nerf was needed.

No it's not perfect; but it's very close to being balanced now (IMO the changes to MeleeBuffDamage and MeleeDebuffResDamage were pretty pointless; but the AoE Overcap damage reduction was NOT. I do think that the overcap damage reduction numbers are currently set a smidge too high though; since currently a Tanker is dealing slightly less damage to 16 Targets than a Brute is dealing to 10... but I'm also expecting them to tweak things a bit further before the dust finally settles - we know a balance pass is coming!)


However it's worth pointing out that asking "Are you suggesting tanks now lower their survive-ability just to kill a boss" is very much missing the point.

A major effort went into ensuring that Tanker AoE damage got reduced whilst keeping Tanker Single Target damage effectively exactly the same ("Build Up" and "Rage" etc. granting a 10% lower damage buff notwithstanding). The original radius changes proposed by the Devs on Brainstorm were causing a reduction in the base damage of Tanker Cones as well as any AoEs that had a base radius <15ft. This caused powersets that use cones as part of their regular Single Target attack chain (like Staff and Titan Weapons) to be disproportionally negatively impacted; and caused powersets that have 15ft base radius AoEs (like Super Strength and Battle Axe) to drastically outperform the rest of the pack. Those imbalances were highlighted and proven and to be fair the Devs listened and addressed them. And as a result; what hit Live has drastically reduced Tanker AoE damage output whenever they're surrounded by >10 foes (with a slight reduction when fighting 10 or fewer foes); but NOT their Single Target damage output.

There are still a few lingering issues with individual powersets like Radiation Armor - but that's not a reflection on the Tanker inherent changes.

And FWIW Damage Resistance for both Tankers and Brutes still caps out at 90% (not 80%; I've no idea where you were getting that from!) and it's still much easier to reach that cap on Tankers because of their higher base values. Which leads to one of the classic arguments for Brutes underperforming; even before Tanker higher Target Caps and AoE radiuses were considered: "it takes me more effort to hit the same survivability thresholds as a Tanker, so I need to make more build sacrifices" (also occasionally phrased as "Tankers get to slot more damage procs than me!!") especially whenever you factor in the ATO performance disparity.
 

 

3 hours ago, Paragon Vanguard said:

I can't fix this without losing something else in a maxed out tank

I believe that was the idea.

After i26p4; Tankers had the best survivability plus decent ST damage and the best AoE damage of all the melee ATs.

After i28p2; Tankers still have the best survivability plus decent ST damage (whilst the "damage buff" powers got a slight reduction; powers like Build Up granting +70% damage instead of +80% is not particularly bothersome and the impact on Super Strength Double-Stacked Rage users was already pointed out and responded to on Brainstorm despite the fact that it translates to only a ~5.2% difference in actual average damage output in a real-world scenario) however their AoE damage has been reduced to fall very roughly into line with an equivalently built and slotted Brute.

So if you want them to deal more AoE damage; you'll need to alter your build - more global recharge, more AoEs; more damage procs, whatever.
 

Edited July 9 by Maelwys

[Paragon Vanguard]

4 hours ago, Maelwys said:

So if you want them to deal more AoE damage; you'll need to alter your build - more global recharge, more AoEs; more damage procs, whatever.
 

Again, alter a maxed out build that was already something less than a Brute (due to damage), to be even less than a tank, and still less than a Brute, and call it balanced?

Edited: I am sorry, I thought a Brute maxed at 80% damage resist. What was done is even worse.......wow. I don't know why I thought it was 80%, it must have been at some point and I assumed it was. So a Brute can max 90% resistance, do more damage, and we call THAT balanced? Awe man.....got me shaking my head even more. 

 

Just to say, cold written words don't really portray the feel of the post. I am not being argumentative or feeling you are being insincere. In person, this would be a smile and a conversation, not an argument. I won't be adding more on this, I can't say it any differently. I respect you, I love this game, and I appreciate the devs. I just don't agree with this ONE spot of a game I love, and truly hope others speak out. If not, I will invest in the pay to win pets, and still play my fluffy fingered tanks from time to time. 🙂

Edited July 9 by Paragon Vanguard

[Warboss]

So after all is said and done. Tanks got nerfed. Did that resolve "the Brute" issue? Because the few Brutes I play still clear faster than my Tanks. I don't recall my Tankers ever clearing faster than my Brutes. Even so, what's instore for Brutes? Should they get buffed or modified, we'll be back in the same loop we're in now. I just don't see these changes (maybe aside from the proc issue) really resolving anything (other than impacting my enjoyment of the game),

Edited July 9 by Warboss

[skoryy]

19 minutes ago, Paragon Vanguard said:

Again, alter a maxed out build that was already something less than a Brute (due to damage), to be even less than a tank, and still less than a Brute, and call it balanced?

 

I'd explain that tankers primary is stronger than brute secondary, and that tankers get more out of +dmg% than brutes, but I figure you know that already and I'll just leave you to your wallowing over it taking a little longer to clear a spawn.

[Paragon Vanguard]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

 

I'd explain that tankers primary is stronger than brute secondary, and that tankers get more out of +dmg% than brutes, but I figure you know that already and I'll just leave you to your wallowing over it taking a little longer to clear a spawn.

Just had to troll. Always a troll somewhere. Was it because I said I would leave it. I meant with the person not trying to troll. 

 

Damage % means little when we are talking minions, both can clear a room in the same amount of time. Doing more damage making something deader doesnt make it more dead. You can feel superior all you want, its okay, but you still aren't right. You are....well....just trolling. Go back under your rock and let the adults talk. You call it wallow, I call it discussion, its what adults do. 

[skoryy]

11 minutes ago, Paragon Vanguard said:

Just had to troll. Always a troll somewhere. Was it because I said I would leave it. I meant with the person not trying to troll. 

 

Damage % means little when we are talking minions, both can clear a room in the same amount of time. Doing more damage making something deader doesnt make it more dead. You can feel superior all you want, its okay, but you still aren't right. You are....well....just trolling. Go back under your rock and let the adults talk. You call it wallow, I call it discussion, its what adults do. 

 

That's a whole lot of words for "I know you are but what am I."  But I'll be the actual adult and solve this problem with the ignore list.