Stand-Off MM for soloing

[Scarlet Shocker]

I've been interested in making some "Stand-Off" characters (you might see the thread in GD)

 

By Stand Off I mean that I can stay relatively still and my enemies don't get close enough to me to do me damage.

 

I'm having great fun with a Dark/TA troller currently but I wanted to try an MM.

 

I'm not keen on the original MM pets but I'm thinking Beasts might be a very solid "defensive" choice - I've had experience with them before and enjoy them and given they are mostly melee, they'd be good at destroying anything that gets too close. I'm thinking maybe /Traps or /Storm as secondaries - Traps is probably a lot more "Stand Off" but Storm can just throw stuff around so if they get close they can be sent to the corner right away.

 

Any other thoughts as to what would work as a Stand Off MM? I'm open to all suggestions despite my stated preference.

[evetsleep]

I happen to LOVE both for this kind of playstyle:

• Robots/FF
• Merc/FF

You get softcapped defenses + repulsion field and the henchmen can heal themselves, which helps.  Bots is going to be a little more survivable thanks to the Maintenance Drone and the mercs will be more DPS.

 

Often with these I place them on the edge of a spawn and command them to stay (in aggressive posture) and then I hang out near them with repulsion field running to keep anything from getting too close.

[Uun]

I've got a Beast/Traps that I really like. While it can be played from range, it works better if you stand in melee so that the Force Field Generator shields your pets. Even so, I don't pick up a lot of personal aggro. I use Poison Trap just about every spawn (which also gives you a window to deploy a Trip Mine). I use Seeker Drones to pull if I don't want the pets to rush in. and use the personal attacks (Call Hawk and Call Ravens) a fair amount as they build stacks of Pack Mentality. I almost never need to use Fortify Pack. My build is attached, but I haven't respec'ed since the power level changes so ignore the levels powers were taken.

Uunsafari - Mastermind (Beast Mastery).mbd

[Scarlet Shocker]

one of the things I like about Traps rather than say FF or Storm is that it's got a good self-heal.

[Uun]

50 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

one of the things I like about Traps rather than say FF or Storm is that it's got a good self-heal.

Triage Beacon is an AoE regen buff, not a heal (I believe it will heal if you slot it with the Panacea proc). Its main issue is that it isn't mobile and has a long recharge (200s). It has a long duration (90s), but most of that is wasted unless you're in a prolonged battle. Prior to the most recent patch it had stats identical to Spirit Tree, which just had its recharge reduced to 120s and added a taunt aura. I'm hoping that Triage Beacon gets similar love from the devs in the not too distant future.

[evetsleep]

42 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

one of the things I like about Traps rather than say FF or Storm is that it's got a good self-heal.

 

Well...to be clear (for those new to traps), it's not a "heal", but regen.  So long as you're henchmen aren't taking more damage than it's regen`ing you're good (and they stay put).  Kind of depends how much pressure your henchmen are under.  Also the only form of area denial (like repulsion field) is caltrops, which is honestly also fine..I just find repulsion field a little easier to use.  Caltrops would be nice since it's centered on where you drop it instead of around you.

 

I LOVE traps, to be clear (it's very much one of my favorite secondaries for controllers and MM's).  But since we're asking about "stand-off" combo's strategies I kind of wonder if caltrops is enough to keep those naughty bad guys off the henchmen.

 

Speaking of area denial, I've actually tried bots\sonic when Maintenance Drone was introduced and it's actually not bad..but I can not stand the sound of a busy Sonic Repulsion field.  It drives me absolutely batty.

 

Another runner up, for me, now that you mention it, is /storm, which does have O2 boost (I wouldn't pick it though..let the protectors\maintenance drone do healing).  Generally speaking I have stopped picking hurricane on my stormies in most cases.  However a purely ranged set like bots or mercs means I can "stand-off" on the edge of the spawn, put the pets on stay and run hurricane to keep baddies away without annoying the melee guys tearing things up inside the spawn.  The bots or mercs are plucking away while I drop in tornadoes and lightning storm.  Naturally storm is a little more offensive so you won't be bored picking your nose while the fight is going on (definitely a risk with force field, depending how you play it).

 

Traps is a solid, middle pick imho where you get a good balance of offense\defense for a stand off combo.  You may call me a heretic here, but I pick detonator and I often send in the assbot into the middle of a pack and blow him up.  I enjoy the damage and it makes me happy...all thanks to the quality of life changes the devs made to MM's awhile ago with quick, cheap henchmen summons.  Totally changed how I play MMs.

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

57 minutes ago, evetsleep said:

 

Well...to be clear (for those new to traps), it's not a "heal", but regen.  So long as you're henchmen aren't taking more damage than it's regen`ing you're good (and they stay put).  Kind of depends how much pressure your henchmen are under.  Also the only form of area denial (like repulsion field) is caltrops, which is honestly also fine..I just find repulsion field a little easier to use.  Caltrops would be nice since it's centered on where you drop it instead of around you.

 

I LOVE traps, to be clear (it's very much one of my favorite secondaries for controllers and MM's).  But since we're asking about "stand-off" combo's strategies I kind of wonder if caltrops is enough to keep those naughty bad guys off the henchmen.

 

Speaking of area denial, I've actually tried bots\sonic when Maintenance Drone was introduced and it's actually not bad..but I can not stand the sound of a busy Sonic Repulsion field.  It drives me absolutely batty.

 

Another runner up, for me, now that you mention it, is /storm, which does have O2 boost (I wouldn't pick it though..let the protectors\maintenance drone do healing).  Generally speaking I have stopped picking hurricane on my stormies in most cases.  However a purely ranged set like bots or mercs means I can "stand-off" on the edge of the spawn, put the pets on stay and run hurricane to keep baddies away without annoying the melee guys tearing things up inside the spawn.  The bots or mercs are plucking away while I drop in tornadoes and lightning storm.  Naturally storm is a little more offensive so you won't be bored picking your nose while the fight is going on (definitely a risk with force field, depending how you play it).

 

Traps is a solid, middle pick imho where you get a good balance of offense\defense for a stand off combo.  You may call me a heretic here, but I pick detonator and I often send in the assbot into the middle of a pack and blow him up.  I enjoy the damage and it makes me happy...all thanks to the quality of life changes the devs made to MM's awhile ago with quick, cheap henchmen summons.  Totally changed how I play MMs.

 

 

I dislike Sonic for the effects (if you're a Brit and old like me you'll remember ReddyBrek adverts and understand some of this) and I think Liquify is seriously sub par. To my mind, Sonic is less useful than Thermal which isn't really a stand off set (but does have some yummy debuffs and helps keep the nastiness at bay.

 

O2 Boost is delicious - provided that you keep reminding yourself that it's not a heal, it's a superior buff with a tiny heal component. It's pretty well like Clear Mind only faster and more useful. On teams with lots of Mez it's beautiful but nobody knows how useful it is because they never get mezzed and forget to thank you for keeping them in the game 🤣

[Force Redux]

I will second Robotics/Force Field.

 

The lack of self heal is negligible. Occasional green is fine. If you want you can grab medicine, FF gives you room to play with powers/slots. 

 

[Neiska]

Said by others here already, /FF is effectively MM Hands-free mode. All you really do is refresh your buffs. Thats about it. You can take other powers to fill things out but that's optional. Robots is the traditional pairing, and the two together can have quite a bit of knockback. But it is very passive. Some like that, some find it boring. If you ever played the diablo 2 druid summoner where you just summon things and watch them to everything, its a lot like that.

 

/Traps is very much "plant the flag" or "fortress defender" style. You basically make a kill box and anything that enters that killing zone is at a big disadvantage. So it isn't very "stand off" if you want to play at range.

 

/Time can be built to play at ranged as well. It has lots of +DEF, two different ways to slow things way down, some buffs, and a heal. 

 

But one thing I have not seen mentioned yet is Group Fly. If you pick an all ranged set like Mercs or Robos, once you get group fly that massively cuts down on how many things can attack you in many circumstances. Not all but most. Some maps have low ceilings like caves or office maps. Some enemies like Arachnos have a lot of ranged attacks. But in many situations just hovering just out of range means everything you are fighting might get 1 or 2 ranged attacks and then they are stuck waiting. 

 

If you are willing to use a flying MM setup, that really opens up a lot for secondary options. I'm not sure if group fly falls into your definition of "stand off" But, if it does, probably the king of "stand off" MM setups would be a flying Robot/FF build. Lots of DEF, protection from debuffs, drone to heal robots, and you kind of just sit back and watch the robots pewpew things down. Mercs/Time could be another strong group fly contender.

 

/Storm has a lot of knockback, and good damage. But I don't have much experience with /Storm myself. I played one and didn't much care for it personally. But you could make something like a robots/storm and specialize in knockback attacks.

 

As far as more pools for "stay away from me" - Field Mastery has quite a bit of knockback as well with Power Blast, Energy Torrent, and Explosive Blast.

 

Just me musing here, but I think the most "standback" MM setup would be -

Robots/FF, with Whirlwind from Speed pool (another knockback toggle), with field mastery goodies. Between you and your robots you would stack a lot of Knockback very quickly, and it would be far safer than /Storm.

 

Another option with /FF is taking the stealth pool. I mean, you aren't doing much anyway? So once you throw out your buffs you can just watch everything progress while you just hang back and watch. I'm not 100% positive on this one as I have never really tested much with stealth on a Mastermind, mostly just the Celerity + Stealth enhancement. But as I understand it, once pets and buffs are out, you could just hide. Giving commands or doing anything causes stealth to drop, but you could in theory just hover above and let the robots do their thing if you were feeling particularly lazy.

 

It might not be a terrible idea to have both Group Fly and Stealth on a Robot/FF, just so you have options for different situations.

 

Hope this helps! 

[tjknight]

21 hours ago, Force Redux said:

I will second Robotics/Force Field.

 

The lack of self heal is negligible. Occasional green is fine. If you want you can grab medicine, FF gives you room to play with powers/slots. 

 

 

Robotics + Force Fields is the epitome of lazy, effective play. When properly built, you become a walking tank. There's also build room to include Taunt, which you can spam while your pets attack, bubble, and self-heal. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

21 hours ago, Neiska said:

Said by others here already, /FF is effectively MM Hands-free mode. All you really do is refresh your buffs. Thats about it. You can take other powers to fill things out but that's optional. Robots is the traditional pairing, and the two together can have quite a bit of knockback. But it is very passive. Some like that, some find it boring. If you ever played the diablo 2 druid summoner where you just summon things and watch them to everything, its a lot like that.

 

/Traps is very much "plant the flag" or "fortress defender" style. You basically make a kill box and anything that enters that killing zone is at a big disadvantage. So it isn't very "stand off" if you want to play at range.

 

/Time can be built to play at ranged as well. It has lots of +DEF, two different ways to slow things way down, some buffs, and a heal. 

 

But one thing I have not seen mentioned yet is Group Fly. If you pick an all ranged set like Mercs or Robos, once you get group fly that massively cuts down on how many things can attack you in many circumstances. Not all but most. Some maps have low ceilings like caves or office maps. Some enemies like Arachnos have a lot of ranged attacks. But in many situations just hovering just out of range means everything you are fighting might get 1 or 2 ranged attacks and then they are stuck waiting. 

 

If you are willing to use a flying MM setup, that really opens up a lot for secondary options. I'm not sure if group fly falls into your definition of "stand off" But, if it does, probably the king of "stand off" MM setups would be a flying Robot/FF build. Lots of DEF, protection from debuffs, drone to heal robots, and you kind of just sit back and watch the robots pewpew things down. Mercs/Time could be another strong group fly contender.

 

/Storm has a lot of knockback, and good damage. But I don't have much experience with /Storm myself. I played one and didn't much care for it personally. But you could make something like a robots/storm and specialize in knockback attacks.

 

As far as more pools for "stay away from me" - Field Mastery has quite a bit of knockback as well with Power Blast, Energy Torrent, and Explosive Blast.

 

Just me musing here, but I think the most "standback" MM setup would be -

Robots/FF, with Whirlwind from Speed pool (another knockback toggle), with field mastery goodies. Between you and your robots you would stack a lot of Knockback very quickly, and it would be far safer than /Storm.

 

Another option with /FF is taking the stealth pool. I mean, you aren't doing much anyway? So once you throw out your buffs you can just watch everything progress while you just hang back and watch. I'm not 100% positive on this one as I have never really tested much with stealth on a Mastermind, mostly just the Celerity + Stealth enhancement. But as I understand it, once pets and buffs are out, you could just hide. Giving commands or doing anything causes stealth to drop, but you could in theory just hover above and let the robots do their thing if you were feeling particularly lazy.

 

It might not be a terrible idea to have both Group Fly and Stealth on a Robot/FF, just so you have options for different situations.

 

Hope this helps! 

 

You make some very interesting points.

 

I'm not sure Stealth would work. I do use it a lot on squshies... I use it as a means to get from A2B with the minimum of hassle, as a mule for LotG, and as a last resort to boost my Def, which is less than efficient but if you got it and slotted a global rech, a +Def and the movement speed isn't so expensive for just one slot (though in my case my diverticulitis reminds me that movement speed isn't all it's cracked up to be)

 

Group Fly: I have so much antipathy to it because of its rep and the fact I hate when folk use it on me... but I do see where you're at there.

 

Storm is amazing as a set. I'm a big fan and you get Freezing Rain as a T5 - it's Sleet only accessible much earlier and one of the best single power debuffs in game. Plus I love knockback. I think those who bleat about it need their head seeing to... (although I do remember on live playing a scrapper and having an energy blaster target through me so I almost never hit my target)

 

Let's assume I make a Bots/FF, what do I take as an APP, and also Pools?

[Scarlet Shocker]

I have rolled a Beast/FF but I'm thinking a Bots/FF needs to be made too. I dislike the look of Bots... they look too dated for the modern game IMO (yeah I know, we don't even have fingers so why complain?) but they just do

[Force Redux]

I took Mu for the AOE immob and style points/resist shield (I already had so much DEF i decided to have resists). With all the bot KB turned into KD, I think you could go and do anything. 

 

But honestly, Mace gives you so much, too:

 

Power Boost (for boosted FFs)

AOE Immob

Scorpion Shield (for DEF stacking)

Web Coccon (less for the Hold and more for the -Fly vs. annoying targets you want to ground for the team - I take Group Fly, myself, but still...very optional). 

[biostem]

Elec secondary makes the most sense to me, IMHO.  Faraday cage is good, has a relatively short recharge, and with some clever binds, you can maximize the chaining buffs...

[Force Redux]

Great secondary I agree, but Elec is also very busy and SS was looking for a hands off kinda build. IMO.

[WumpusRat]

3 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

Let's assume I make a Bots/FF, what do I take as an APP, and also Pools?

 

For Bot/FF, I go with Leadership (more damage, more defense), Leaping (for CJ), Flight (because I like to fly), and one dealer's choice. Could be stealth, fighting (if you want to be personally tankier), or medicine (for a self-heal as well as backup heal for the pets if you really need it).

 

Bot/FF can be a very "dig in and fight" style, as you can drop damping bubble and repulsion field and just let the bots go to work. 

 

It's also quite easy to get your bots to the defense cap, though stuff will still clock them and knock them around. The weakness of bots is that you don't have a spare pet power for the auras, so you basically only have 4 slots per power for enhancements. I tend to split mark of supremacy into 2/2/2 for the bonus recharge, and typically an acc/dmg and acc/dmg/end from another set to max their damage and get acc/end to around 70ish each.

 

For epic/patron, energy is a thematic choice to pewpew your own energy blasts around (even more knockback/down), and temp invuln can be set to no fx, making it nice. Mace is another option if you want to opt for power boost, to kick the bubbles up for the pets. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

5 hours ago, Force Redux said:

Great secondary I agree, but Elec is also very busy and SS was looking for a hands off kinda build. IMO.

 

This is basically it. I don't wanna be constantly button mashing but I actually want to be masterminding my pets, while they deal with the enemy

[biostem]

11 hours ago, Force Redux said:

Great secondary I agree, but Elec is also very busy and SS was looking for a hands off kinda build. IMO.

That's where the "clever binds" come into play - by using a carefully placed + you can have 1 key target your nearest living minion and fire off one of the chaining powers, but to each their own... 

Edited Thursday at 02:41 PM by biostem

[TygerDarkstorm]

Elec Aff is only as busy as you make it. Much like Kinetics, you don't have to push every single button just because they're off cooldown. Elec Aff is busy, but I don't find it to be crazy or anything since you don't always have to be pushing one of the buttons.

[Neiska]

19 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

You make some very interesting points.

 

I'm not sure Stealth would work. I do use it a lot on squshies... I use it as a means to get from A2B with the minimum of hassle, as a mule for LotG, and as a last resort to boost my Def, which is less than efficient but if you got it and slotted a global rech, a +Def and the movement speed isn't so expensive for just one slot (though in my case my diverticulitis reminds me that movement speed isn't all it's cracked up to be)

 

Group Fly: I have so much antipathy to it because of its rep and the fact I hate when folk use it on me... but I do see where you're at there.

 

Storm is amazing as a set. I'm a big fan and you get Freezing Rain as a T5 - it's Sleet only accessible much earlier and one of the best single power debuffs in game. Plus I love knockback. I think those who bleat about it need their head seeing to... (although I do remember on live playing a scrapper and having an energy blaster target through me so I almost never hit my target)

 

Let's assume I make a Bots/FF, what do I take as an APP, and also Pools?

 

Here is a quick Robot/FF MIDs I cobbled together. Not sure if this is optimized but should be a great "ballpark" look, tying to focus on your "standback" and "hands free" style.

 

 

So first off, this build has very high defenses. (In this screenie Weave is toggled off) this is because as @Maelwys recently shown me, the Clarion Radial DOES affect the protector Bot's Shield Bubble. As its slotted, the protector bot should provide 25.47% DEF on top of other things, so Weave isn't needed. I did include group fly (largely out of habit) but you can certainly replace it with something else, like maybe medicine for a self heal possibly? The build also has Dark Embrace for Resists (fills in the RES holes very nicely!) and the Soul Tendrils immobilize - I consider some form of Immobilize near mandatory for Robot MMs due to the fire patches, but then again the fire patches did get hit hard and isnt as good as it once was, so you can likely change this out. But I still keep it because I really hate having runners.

 

The way I see it, playing this build has 3 "modes" -

1. Group Fly to hover-mind with your pets.

2. On the ground with Repulsion field on, using knockback attacks to push things away from your pets.

3. Personal Force Field mode - with this toggled, you are incredibly durable, but you can only use self-affecting powers. So no group fly, no maneuvers, no tactics, etc. But here is another snip for the values with PFF mode ON - 

 

 

So when in super-turtle mode, you are DEF capped, RES capped to most things, in Bodyguard Mode, etc etc. Plus keep in mind, Damping Bubble gives a lot of protection from Debuffs too, and the Clarion gives lots of Status protection. Pretty much the only things you really have to worry about is END and Recovery debuffs. Which altogether passes many Tanker builds in how fantastically tough it can be.

 

Anyway, just wanted to provide a mock-up for you to look at. I have seen other builds that favors Force-Bomb procs and the like. Another thought I had was I noticed with /FF you can actually take Dark Mastery and see how well the Disorient/Stun works from stacking Force Bomb and Dark Pit, both of which are ranged AoE Mag 2 Stuns which should stack. Which, if they do, (and I think they will) could make your super-tank MM even tankier if you are stunning things regularly. But I don't have a build for that made, but its a thought.

 

But yea, Robot/FF looks like it can be ridiculously durable and has options for hands-free playstyle too.

 

Hope this helps!

[Dixa]

with personal ff up your pets dont get supremacy. it's not recommended to use this on the regular. 

[Force Redux]

I do like to take the alpha by running in with PFF... Lol...