Universal [thesaurus word not found] KB2KD enhancements.

[kelika2]

The knockback tax is really getting to me.

Like, real bad.  I want to branch out to some characters but I know that many people hate knockback.

So I came up with the idea of an enhancement thats pretty much a stem-cell enhancement.

 

Now lets take Energy Blast with Thunderstrike and Artillery sets.  And you want knockback to knockdown.  Slotting Sudden Acceleration will make you miss out on the 6th bonus which is a huge amount of ranged defense.

 

Said stem-cell enhancement will have an inherent KB2KD but it will also become the last enhancement needed to complete the bonus and get the stats.

 

If positron can make fully functional synthetic alien blob enhancements, why cant someone make the pinnacle of bio-engineered inventions?  does it even need a bio-engineered backstory?  we have magic, we have alien tech, we have science

 

now because this is just an idea i wont get into super specific "what if to death" scenarios on ATOs, pvp sets,  what happens if you use it as the 5th and not 6th enhancement, origin concepts.

 

but what i would like is to have this be cheap as fuck, like 5 merits max. 

 

actually i just had an afterthought to have an almost free conversion to add KB2KD to any enhancement at a crafting table.  Pulverizing Fisticuffs:  acc/dmg(kb2kd), still fits the acc/dmg setpiece and such.  and just like Boosted enhancements it will wipe off the kb2kd on market selling or mailing

[Forager]

Knockback is awesome. Don't neuter yourself. Play inspired!

 

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

I know that many people hate knockback.

 

Nobody who matters.

[Psi-bolt]

13 hours ago, kelika2 said:

actually i just had an afterthought to have an almost free conversion to add KB2KD to any enhancement at a crafting table.  Pulverizing Fisticuffs:  acc/dmg(kb2kd), still fits the acc/dmg setpiece and such.  and just like Boosted enhancements it will wipe off the kb2kd on market selling or mailing

 

That would be interesting.   

 

On the main topic, after a recent post on KB, I started an Energy Blaster with the full intent of getting it to 50, made it to 30.  I came to a realization.  It's not even the KB that holds the set back so much, that set just sucks.   I started a Water Blast right after because I had never done that set on a Blaster and it was a joy to play.    The KB is just insult to injury for that poor set.  The AoE is weak and the ST attacks are middling.  While with Fire having a PBAoE Tier 9 is fair given what that set brings to the table, with Energy Blast, Nova doesn't need that limitation.  I pretty much feel the same with Peacebringers too.   

[macskull]

56 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

It's not even the KB that holds the set back so much, that set just sucks.

Sort of. Looking back at Galaxy Brain’s blast set testing, Energy was pretty much dead last out of the box but moved up to the middle of the pack with KB/KD converters. The base set does have some issues which converters don’t solve, but you do at least get decent performance if you’re willing to pay the slot tax.

[mistagoat]

57 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

That would be interesting.   

 

On the main topic, after a recent post on KB, I started an Energy Blaster with the full intent of getting it to 50, made it to 30.  I came to a realization.  It's not even the KB that holds the set back so much, that set just sucks.   I started a Water Blast right after because I had never done that set on a Blaster and it was a joy to play.    The KB is just insult to injury for that poor set.  The AoE is weak and the ST attacks are middling.  While with Fire having a PBAoE Tier 9 is fair given what that set brings to the table, with Energy Blast, Nova doesn't need that limitation.  I pretty much feel the same with Peacebringers too.   

Ha! I did the same thing like a year ago after reading some thread about how much everyone hates KB. Figured I'd make an Energy Blaster and lean into the KB and just play it solo. I made it to the high 20s before abandoning it and never boosted the diff to more than +1x1. I was shocked at how weak the set was! Interesting experiment but I doubt I'll ever mess with Energy Blast again.

 

I'm on board for anything that eliminates the KB tax. I like this approach because it isn't all or nothing. This would allow me to curtail something like energy torrent but wouldn't mess with the best power in the game, Ki Push! (I'll never convert Ki Push, it's just too perfect as it is!)

[Psi-bolt]

16 minutes ago, macskull said:

Sort of. Looking back at Galaxy Brain’s blast set testing, Energy was pretty much dead last out of the box but moved up to the middle of the pack with KB/KD converters. The base set does have some issues which converters don’t solve, but you do at least get decent performance if you’re willing to pay the slot tax.

 

I can believe that.  But I think that middle of the pack for Blast sets is pretty bad because the best sets are so awesome.

[Yomo Kimyata]

People tend to be on one side or the other in terms of knockback.  And I think that it is interesting that people seem to have different views on what "knockback tax" means to them.  To me, who mostly solos, knockback/down is a form of crowd control which vastly increases my survivability.  When they invented the knockback to knockdown IOs (which work by the interesting mechanism of taking one tenth of the current knockback value), I think it was mainly because by that point *most* people had moved past worrying about survival.  

 

It will be interesting to see how/if current devs deal with things like knockback (knockback is no longer a desirable tool for many but is rather a detriment) or dark melee or kinetic melee (which both enhance your survivability by making you harder to hit or take less damage but at the cost of not being the most damaging sets).  For me?  I'm still team knockback, and I'm not a big fan of giving away free KB2KD since to me it is a clearly defined tradeoff.

[macskull]

4 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

I can believe that.  But I think that middle of the pack for Blast sets is pretty bad because the best sets are so awesome.

Middle of the pack is better than dead last, though.

[Steampunkette]

Yeah, no.

 

As it is, people piss and moan and whine and demand other people change their builds to have as little KB as possible. This would just make that worse and provide them greater perceived support for the repeated threads in this forum of "Remove all Knockback from the game!!1!11!!Eleven!"

 

Knockback is part of City of Heroes and Superheroic works of fiction. Leave it be.

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Yeah, no.

 

As it is, people piss and moan and whine and demand other people change their builds to have as little KB as possible. This would just make that worse and provide them greater perceived support for the repeated threads in this forum of "Remove all Knockback from the game!!1!11!!Eleven!"

 

Knockback is part of City of Heroes and Superheroic works of fiction. Leave it be.

This is why I think we need a straight KB-KD toggle power purchasable at START.  Then there really should be no more arguments.  If you’re on a team and the team wants you to turn off the KB you can have a free easy way to do that without a slot tax.  Or if you really like KB that’s cool too and you can quit and play with others who agree with you.  Even start your own teams where KB is welcome and appreciated.

 

No more need to spend several million influence.  

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

This is why I think we need a straight KB-KD toggle power purchasable at START.  Then there really should be no more arguments.  If you’re on a team and the team wants you to turn off the KB you can have a free easy way to do that without a slot tax.  Or if you really like KB that’s cool too and you can quit and play with others who agree with you.  Even start your own teams where KB is welcome and appreciated.

 

No more need to spend several million influence.  

And no more opportunity to show people how that KB can actually benefit the team either as you get told got to START and turn it off or go away even before the first mission starts.

[macskull]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And no more opportunity to show people how that KB can actually benefit the team either as you get told got to START and turn it off or go away even before the first mission starts.

The people who are using KB in a way that actually benefits the team aren't the ones getting asked to stop using it.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

The people who are using KB in a way that actually benefits the team aren't the ones getting asked to stop using it.

I've never known anyone to even be given that chance in the first place. @Psi-bolt's statement would take away even any chance to argue for that chance.

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I've never known anyone to even be given that chance in the first place. @Psi-bolt's statement would take away even any chance to argue for that chance.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to stop using KB or repel in the 18 years I've been playing this game, and I have spent a lot of time on Energy Blast and Storm Summoning characters.

 

If you're using KB well, no one on the team is even going to notice you're doing it.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to stop using KB or repel in the 18 years I've been playing this game, and I have spent a lot of time on Energy Blast and Storm Summoning characters.

 

If you're using KB well, no one on the team is even going to notice you're doing it.

My last experience, and my only experiences with an Energy Blast character when I tried teaming with one was team leader read my powers, asked me if I had KB to KD slotted, and told me good bye when I said no.

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

My last experience, and my only experiences with an Energy Blast character when I tried teaming with one was team leader read my powers, asked me if I had KB to KD slotted, and told me good bye when I said no.

Energy Blast ends up being an oddball because neither of the normal AoEs actually have a guaranteed knock chance so you literally cannot control where mobs go without a KB/KD conversion, unless you happen to only ever use Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast when the targeted mobs are already against a wall.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

Energy Blast ends up being an oddball because neither of the normal AoEs actually have a guaranteed knock chance so you literally cannot control where mobs go without a KB/KD conversion, unless you happen to only ever use Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast when the targeted mobs are already against a wall.

I was on a flier every time. I could absolutely control where my AoEs sent mobs. Down.

[Steampunkette]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

The people who are using KB in a way that actually benefits the team aren't the ones getting asked to stop using it.

In your experience.

 

I've used KB to lock enemies tightly into corners in nice neat piles and been griped at 'cause the tank or brute had to push the W key for 3/10ths of a second to reposition for more AoE. Personally I -love- that use of Wormhole.

 

But, hell, I've had that issue with Telekinesis where a tank got pissed 'cause the enemy cluster suddenly moved 'behind him' but still in melee range. Like. Literally. The act of turning around to throw more punches was SUCH an imposition.

 

I've had people drop Sudden Acceleration KD IOs into my inventory the first time they see an NPC move more than 2ft. Followed, shortly, by a tell of "Slot That"

 

Some folks are freaking RABID over the idea of having to move or change the angle of their cones. Like combat is a spreadsheet of perfectly timed and maximized flow-charts for power activations and the slightest alteration of their activity is a MASSIVE BURDEN.

 

It's super annoying, and every month or so we get another thread begging for KB to become KD globally, or a slightly different interpretation of it such as the toggle.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

But, hell, I've had that issue with Telekinesis where a tank got pissed 'cause the enemy cluster suddenly moved 'behind him' but still in melee range. Like. Literally. The act of turning around to throw more punches was SUCH an imposition.

I mean yeah, I'd be annoyed too if the mob I'd spent time gathering up was suddenly in a different place.

 

Thankfully, you can simply elect to leave teams where your experience is happening.

Edited Tuesday at 05:26 AM by macskull

[tidge]

11 hours ago, macskull said:

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to stop using KB or repel in the 18 years I've been playing this game, and I have spent a lot of time on Energy Blast and Storm Summoning characters.

 

If you're using KB well, no one on the team is even going to notice you're doing it.

 

I think in the last six years I've seen more PUG requests that (non-Grav, non-Kheldian) players stop using Fold Space than I've seen requests to neuter Knockback (from Energy Blast, Ki Push, blah, blah, fishcakes).... and I haven't seen many of those. It often feels like there is a triad of powers that can set off certain players:

 

1) Fold Space

2) AoE Immobilizes/Holds

3) AoE knockback

 

...and let's not forget Group Fly, because who has time to stop at Null the Gull on the way to the START vendor for 2XP/Pocket D exploration Badges/Alignment change?

 

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Some folks are freaking RABID over the idea of having to move or change the angle of their cones. Like combat is a spreadsheet of perfectly timed and maximized flow-charts for power activations and the slightest alteration of their activity is a MASSIVE BURDEN.

 

Some players get RABID about anything and everything that disrupts their mental model of peak efficiency/fun/team composition. Specific to knockback... surely players have already recognized that the critter AI already has enemies self-scattering, let alone that pretty much every mission in the game has enemy spawns in different rooms (that players have to move to).

 

[Steampunkette]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

I mean yeah, I'd be annoyed too if the mob I'd spent time gathering up was suddenly in a different place.

 

Thankfully, you can simply elect to leave teams where your experience is happening.

Telekinesis yanks mobs into a single small area.

 

That small area was "On the tank, slightly to one side, tightly packed" instead of "loose spread around the tank"

 

But even -that- is too much for your own tastes.

 

What is your definition of "a way that actually benefits the team" if this is too far?

[Psi-bolt]

11 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I've had people drop Sudden Acceleration KD IOs into my inventory the first time they see an NPC move more than 2ft. Followed, shortly, by a tell of "Slot That"

 

Honestly, that's both horrifying and awesome in equal measure IMO.  I like to imagine that someone hates KB so much that they carry around a few extras for the people who take Nova.  😆

 

Quote

Some folks are freaking RABID over the idea of having to move or change the angle of their cones. Like combat is a spreadsheet of perfectly timed and maximized flow-charts for power activations and the slightest alteration of their activity is a MASSIVE BURDEN.

 

It's super annoying, and every month or so we get another thread begging for KB to become KD globally, or a slightly different interpretation of it such as the toggle.

 

It's not?  /s

 

Honestly, I never complain about KB on teams, but I can't deny that it's annoying to me (I'll accept that as a personal failing).  There's simply too many powers that depend on enemies being tightly clumped up to feel otherwise.  Fold Space can be annoying as well, but once I know who is using it, it can be helpful.  

 

As for "using KB well," there's maybe ten players I've seen in 21 years who really can control KB well.  I'm one-hundred 💯percent sure that anyone who is reading this is a grand master in the use of knockback and I apologize in advance for having the temerity of doubting your skills.  Please forgive me.  

 

The thing about a toggle (KB to KD) is that it gives people who LIKE knockback more choices.   If you don't want to turn off your KB, then you can leave the groups of anyone who has the gall to ask you to do so.  That's a completely valid choice.   Likewise, with a clear cheap and easy option available, people who don't like KB can express that choice without automatically excluding people who play certain ATs or sets.  Or worse, annoying themselves and perhaps other teammates by not being exclusionary and letting the KB player do their thing.  It gives the KB player a choice that doesn't come with a cost in slots or influence, while simultaneously improving their outcomes in most cases.

 

I guess I just don't understand the objection to such a toggle.  It seems to me that the objection is that people will ask you to use it.  And that the loss in fun from having enemies still controlled (better?) with KD instead of KB is a terrible imposition.  Is KB really that fun for you guys?  Is having to position and all that other stuff you all do to control KB enjoyable? 

 

By the way, while I am a true and complete hater (again personal failing) of AoE KB, I love ST KB when it's guaranteed.   For illustration, I almost always take the ST KB powers that have really high magnitudes like Force Bolt when they are available, because those powers are hilarious.  I even six slotted one once with an ACC and 5 KB just for the laughs when you knock an enemy half way across the zone.   But do folks really get that much enjoyment out of the KB in Nova, Explosive Blast, etc.?

[Steampunkette]

21 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Honestly, that's both horrifying and awesome in equal measure IMO.  I like to imagine that someone hates KB so much that they carry around a few extras for the people who take Nova.  😆

 

 

It's not?  /s

 

Honestly, I never complain about KB on teams, but I can't deny that it's annoying to me (I'll accept that as a personal failing).  There's simply too many powers that depend on enemies being tightly clumped up to feel otherwise.  Fold Space can be annoying as well, but once I know who is using it, it can be helpful.  

 

As for "using KB well," there's maybe ten players I've seen in 21 years who really can control KB well.  I'm one-hundred 💯percent sure that anyone who is reading this is a grand master in the use of knockback and I apologize in advance for having the temerity of doubting your skills.  Please forgive me.  

 

The thing about a toggle (KB to KD) is that it gives people who LIKE knockback more choices.   If you don't want to turn off your KB, then you can leave the groups of anyone who has the gall to ask you to do so.  That's a completely valid choice.   Likewise, with a clear cheap and easy option available, people who don't like KB can express that choice without automatically excluding people who play certain ATs or sets.  Or worse, annoying themselves and perhaps other teammates by not being exclusionary and letting the KB player do their thing.  It gives the KB player a choice that doesn't come with a cost in slots or influence, while simultaneously improving their outcomes in most cases.

 

I guess I just don't understand the objection to such a toggle.  It seems to me that the objection is that people will ask you to use it.  And that the loss in fun from having enemies still controlled (better?) with KD instead of KB is a terrible imposition.  Is KB really that fun for you guys?  Is having to position and all that other stuff you all do to control KB enjoyable? 

 

By the way, while I am a true and complete hater (again personal failing) of AoE KB, I love ST KB when it's guaranteed.   For illustration, I almost always take the ST KB powers that have really high magnitudes like Force Bolt when they are available, because those powers are hilarious.  I even six slotted one once with an ACC and 5 KB just for the laughs when you knock an enemy half way across the zone.   But do folks really get that much enjoyment out of the KB in Nova, Explosive Blast, etc.?

The KB to KD Toggle doesn't give people who like knockback more choices. I can ALREADY leave groups where people complain about KB. This changes nothing for me, as a person who wouldn't use that Toggle.

 

The only thing it would do is provide support for the Anti-KB community to press harder for KB to be removed from the game, entirely. The "Give a Mouse a Cookie" situation.

 

You've already been given the KB to KD IOs for yourselves to minimize your KB if you don't want it, but here people are asking for more ways to remove KB. The OP wants a 'Universal' IO that works with any other set to allow people to remove KD while still getting their set bonuses... which will just result in more community pressure to control OTHER PEOPLE'S BUILDS.

 

Your suggestion is for a global Anti-KB toggle that would free up build slots, but result in Team Leaders demanding everyone go to the D or AP or wherever to buy the damned thing to avoid getting booted off teams because, again, that one person is in control of how you play your character.

 

And both of them support the Anti-KB community hatred and will result in even more "Just make it automatic".

 

Here. How's this for a suggestion that would make it center on the person who hates KB so much and require precisely nothing from the people who like KB:

 

A Toggle which grants enemies within 10ft KB, Repel, and Teleport Protection of 10. Generates no aggro and enemies do not notice this attack. Lasts for 1 hour of active use, costs 10,000,000 inf, and you can buy up to 10 hours of use at a time.

 

TADAH! Now you have a special toggle you can go buy that stops enemies from being knocked, pushed, or teleported away from you and you alone. No one ELSE has to run around to fix your problem.

 

And it doubles as a halfway decent Influence sink for overall game health, too.

Edited Tuesday at 04:39 PM by Steampunkette

[Psi-bolt]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The KB to KD Toggle doesn't give people who like knockback more choices. I can ALREADY leave groups where people complain about KB. This changes nothing for me, as a person who wouldn't use that Toggle.

 

Sure it does, with such a toggle Team Leaders have a very reasonable alternative to asking folks to slot a special enhancer that is a million inf+.  Thus, you will know who is TRULY annoyed by KB where now some of your teammates clearly suffer in silence.

 

Quote

The only thing it would do is provide support for the Anti-KB community to press harder for KB to be removed from the game, entirely. The "Give a Mouse a Cookie" situation.

 

No it wouldn't and no one here has argued for KB to be removed entirely.   A toggle KB-KD precludes that solution entirely.  There would never be a need for such a solution in the presence of such a toggle. 

 

Quote

You've already been given the KB to KD IOs for yourselves to minimize your KB if you don't want it, but here people are asking for more ways to remove KB. The OP wants a 'Universal' IO that works with any other set to allow people to remove KD while still getting their set bonuses... which will just result in more community pressure to control OTHER PEOPLE'S BUILDS.

 

No one would control your build other than you, and my suggestion completely eliminates any concerns about build because I partially agree with you.  That's my point, that people should have to spend resources to remove this effect.  More on that below.

 

Quote

Your suggestion is for a global Anti-KB toggle that would free up build slots, but result in Team Leaders demanding everyone go to the D or AP or wherever to buy the damned thing to avoid getting booted off teams because, again, that one person is in control of how you play your character.

 

No they are not.   You always can leave such a team and the team leader can always boot you from the team.   Any "control" you perceive is someone else playing the game the way that they wish to play.  These options exist now.  I can when I create teams refuse to invite someone with Nova or Explosive Blast.  This would give me another option.  To ask that person to improve their play by using the toggle.  It allows team leaders an ability not to exclude people.  It puts the onus on the player using the problematic effect but asks almost nothing of them.  Because they don't need to buy an enhancer or use a slot they can retain the KB in their powers for teams that don't care or when they are solo or leading.  

 

Quote

Here. How's this for a suggestion that would make it center on the person who hates KB so much and require precisely nothing from the people who like KB:

 

A Toggle which grants enemies within 10ft KB, Repel, and Teleport Protection of 10. Generates no aggro and enemies do not notice this attack. Lasts for 1 hour of active use, costs 10,000,000 inf, and you can buy up to 10 hours of use at a time.

 

TADAH! Now you have a special toggle you can go buy that stops enemies from being knocked, pushed, or teleported away from you and you alone. No one ELSE has to run around to fix your problem.

 

And it doubles as a halfway decent Influence sink for overall game health, too.

 

No, this doesn't deal with the problem.   You assume that only melee players have a problem with KB.  That's not true.  When I'm playing Blasters with location AoEs, it is annoying to have someone run in and Nova everyone out of range.  Also your toggle eliminates Knockdown and Knockup, both very good controls that we should be encouraging folks to use (via a free toggle at the START vendor!)  Finally, the cost just encourages booting people with KB which is what we're trying to lessen.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Psi-bolt said:

The thing about a toggle (KB to KD) is that it gives people who LIKE knockback more choices. 

How do you rationalize that? Because that makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

42 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The KB to KD Toggle doesn't give people who like knockback more choices. I can ALREADY leave groups where people complain about KB. This changes nothing for me, as a person who wouldn't use that Toggle.

 

The only thing it would do is provide support for the Anti-KB community to press harder for KB to be removed from the game, entirely. The "Give a Mouse a Cookie" situation.

 

You've already been given the KB to KD IOs for yourselves to minimize your KB if you don't want it, but here people are asking for more ways to remove KB. The OP wants a 'Universal' IO that works with any other set to allow people to remove KD while still getting their set bonuses... which will just result in more community pressure to control OTHER PEOPLE'S BUILDS.

 

Your suggestion is for a global Anti-KB toggle that would free up build slots, but result in Team Leaders demanding everyone go to the D or AP or wherever to buy the damned thing to avoid getting booted off teams because, again, that one person is in control of how you play your character.

 

And both of them support the Anti-KB community hatred and will result in even more "Just make it automatic".

This.