Universal [thesaurus word not found] KB2KD enhancements.

[kelika2]

The knockback tax is really getting to me.

Like, real bad.  I want to branch out to some characters but I know that many people hate knockback.

So I came up with the idea of an enhancement thats pretty much a stem-cell enhancement.

 

Now lets take Energy Blast with Thunderstrike and Artillery sets.  And you want knockback to knockdown.  Slotting Sudden Acceleration will make you miss out on the 6th bonus which is a huge amount of ranged defense.

 

Said stem-cell enhancement will have an inherent KB2KD but it will also become the last enhancement needed to complete the bonus and get the stats.

 

If positron can make fully functional synthetic alien blob enhancements, why cant someone make the pinnacle of bio-engineered inventions?  does it even need a bio-engineered backstory?  we have magic, we have alien tech, we have science

 

now because this is just an idea i wont get into super specific "what if to death" scenarios on ATOs, pvp sets,  what happens if you use it as the 5th and not 6th enhancement, origin concepts.

 

but what i would like is to have this be cheap as fuck, like 5 merits max. 

 

actually i just had an afterthought to have an almost free conversion to add KB2KD to any enhancement at a crafting table.  Pulverizing Fisticuffs:  acc/dmg(kb2kd), still fits the acc/dmg setpiece and such.  and just like Boosted enhancements it will wipe off the kb2kd on market selling or mailing

[Forager]

Knockback is awesome. Don't neuter yourself. Play inspired!

 

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

I know that many people hate knockback.

 

Nobody who matters.

[Psi-bolt]

13 hours ago, kelika2 said:

actually i just had an afterthought to have an almost free conversion to add KB2KD to any enhancement at a crafting table.  Pulverizing Fisticuffs:  acc/dmg(kb2kd), still fits the acc/dmg setpiece and such.  and just like Boosted enhancements it will wipe off the kb2kd on market selling or mailing

 

That would be interesting.   

 

On the main topic, after a recent post on KB, I started an Energy Blaster with the full intent of getting it to 50, made it to 30.  I came to a realization.  It's not even the KB that holds the set back so much, that set just sucks.   I started a Water Blast right after because I had never done that set on a Blaster and it was a joy to play.    The KB is just insult to injury for that poor set.  The AoE is weak and the ST attacks are middling.  While with Fire having a PBAoE Tier 9 is fair given what that set brings to the table, with Energy Blast, Nova doesn't need that limitation.  I pretty much feel the same with Peacebringers too.   

[macskull]

56 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

It's not even the KB that holds the set back so much, that set just sucks.

Sort of. Looking back at Galaxy Brain’s blast set testing, Energy was pretty much dead last out of the box but moved up to the middle of the pack with KB/KD converters. The base set does have some issues which converters don’t solve, but you do at least get decent performance if you’re willing to pay the slot tax.

[mistagoat]

57 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

That would be interesting.   

 

On the main topic, after a recent post on KB, I started an Energy Blaster with the full intent of getting it to 50, made it to 30.  I came to a realization.  It's not even the KB that holds the set back so much, that set just sucks.   I started a Water Blast right after because I had never done that set on a Blaster and it was a joy to play.    The KB is just insult to injury for that poor set.  The AoE is weak and the ST attacks are middling.  While with Fire having a PBAoE Tier 9 is fair given what that set brings to the table, with Energy Blast, Nova doesn't need that limitation.  I pretty much feel the same with Peacebringers too.   

Ha! I did the same thing like a year ago after reading some thread about how much everyone hates KB. Figured I'd make an Energy Blaster and lean into the KB and just play it solo. I made it to the high 20s before abandoning it and never boosted the diff to more than +1x1. I was shocked at how weak the set was! Interesting experiment but I doubt I'll ever mess with Energy Blast again.

 

I'm on board for anything that eliminates the KB tax. I like this approach because it isn't all or nothing. This would allow me to curtail something like energy torrent but wouldn't mess with the best power in the game, Ki Push! (I'll never convert Ki Push, it's just too perfect as it is!)

[Psi-bolt]

16 minutes ago, macskull said:

Sort of. Looking back at Galaxy Brain’s blast set testing, Energy was pretty much dead last out of the box but moved up to the middle of the pack with KB/KD converters. The base set does have some issues which converters don’t solve, but you do at least get decent performance if you’re willing to pay the slot tax.

 

I can believe that.  But I think that middle of the pack for Blast sets is pretty bad because the best sets are so awesome.

[Yomo Kimyata]

People tend to be on one side or the other in terms of knockback.  And I think that it is interesting that people seem to have different views on what "knockback tax" means to them.  To me, who mostly solos, knockback/down is a form of crowd control which vastly increases my survivability.  When they invented the knockback to knockdown IOs (which work by the interesting mechanism of taking one tenth of the current knockback value), I think it was mainly because by that point *most* people had moved past worrying about survival.  

 

It will be interesting to see how/if current devs deal with things like knockback (knockback is no longer a desirable tool for many but is rather a detriment) or dark melee or kinetic melee (which both enhance your survivability by making you harder to hit or take less damage but at the cost of not being the most damaging sets).  For me?  I'm still team knockback, and I'm not a big fan of giving away free KB2KD since to me it is a clearly defined tradeoff.

[macskull]

4 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

I can believe that.  But I think that middle of the pack for Blast sets is pretty bad because the best sets are so awesome.

Middle of the pack is better than dead last, though.

[Steampunkette]

Yeah, no.

 

As it is, people piss and moan and whine and demand other people change their builds to have as little KB as possible. This would just make that worse and provide them greater perceived support for the repeated threads in this forum of "Remove all Knockback from the game!!1!11!!Eleven!"

 

Knockback is part of City of Heroes and Superheroic works of fiction. Leave it be.

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Yeah, no.

 

As it is, people piss and moan and whine and demand other people change their builds to have as little KB as possible. This would just make that worse and provide them greater perceived support for the repeated threads in this forum of "Remove all Knockback from the game!!1!11!!Eleven!"

 

Knockback is part of City of Heroes and Superheroic works of fiction. Leave it be.

This is why I think we need a straight KB-KD toggle power purchasable at START.  Then there really should be no more arguments.  If you’re on a team and the team wants you to turn off the KB you can have a free easy way to do that without a slot tax.  Or if you really like KB that’s cool too and you can quit and play with others who agree with you.  Even start your own teams where KB is welcome and appreciated.

 

No more need to spend several million influence.  

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

This is why I think we need a straight KB-KD toggle power purchasable at START.  Then there really should be no more arguments.  If you’re on a team and the team wants you to turn off the KB you can have a free easy way to do that without a slot tax.  Or if you really like KB that’s cool too and you can quit and play with others who agree with you.  Even start your own teams where KB is welcome and appreciated.

 

No more need to spend several million influence.  

And no more opportunity to show people how that KB can actually benefit the team either as you get told got to START and turn it off or go away even before the first mission starts.

[macskull]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And no more opportunity to show people how that KB can actually benefit the team either as you get told got to START and turn it off or go away even before the first mission starts.

The people who are using KB in a way that actually benefits the team aren't the ones getting asked to stop using it.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

The people who are using KB in a way that actually benefits the team aren't the ones getting asked to stop using it.

I've never known anyone to even be given that chance in the first place. @Psi-bolt's statement would take away even any chance to argue for that chance.

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I've never known anyone to even be given that chance in the first place. @Psi-bolt's statement would take away even any chance to argue for that chance.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to stop using KB or repel in the 18 years I've been playing this game, and I have spent a lot of time on Energy Blast and Storm Summoning characters.

 

If you're using KB well, no one on the team is even going to notice you're doing it.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to stop using KB or repel in the 18 years I've been playing this game, and I have spent a lot of time on Energy Blast and Storm Summoning characters.

 

If you're using KB well, no one on the team is even going to notice you're doing it.

My last experience, and my only experiences with an Energy Blast character when I tried teaming with one was team leader read my powers, asked me if I had KB to KD slotted, and told me good bye when I said no.

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

My last experience, and my only experiences with an Energy Blast character when I tried teaming with one was team leader read my powers, asked me if I had KB to KD slotted, and told me good bye when I said no.

Energy Blast ends up being an oddball because neither of the normal AoEs actually have a guaranteed knock chance so you literally cannot control where mobs go without a KB/KD conversion, unless you happen to only ever use Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast when the targeted mobs are already against a wall.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

Energy Blast ends up being an oddball because neither of the normal AoEs actually have a guaranteed knock chance so you literally cannot control where mobs go without a KB/KD conversion, unless you happen to only ever use Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast when the targeted mobs are already against a wall.

I was on a flier every time. I could absolutely control where my AoEs sent mobs. Down.

[Steampunkette]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

The people who are using KB in a way that actually benefits the team aren't the ones getting asked to stop using it.

In your experience.

 

I've used KB to lock enemies tightly into corners in nice neat piles and been griped at 'cause the tank or brute had to push the W key for 3/10ths of a second to reposition for more AoE. Personally I -love- that use of Wormhole.

 

But, hell, I've had that issue with Telekinesis where a tank got pissed 'cause the enemy cluster suddenly moved 'behind him' but still in melee range. Like. Literally. The act of turning around to throw more punches was SUCH an imposition.

 

I've had people drop Sudden Acceleration KD IOs into my inventory the first time they see an NPC move more than 2ft. Followed, shortly, by a tell of "Slot That"

 

Some folks are freaking RABID over the idea of having to move or change the angle of their cones. Like combat is a spreadsheet of perfectly timed and maximized flow-charts for power activations and the slightest alteration of their activity is a MASSIVE BURDEN.

 

It's super annoying, and every month or so we get another thread begging for KB to become KD globally, or a slightly different interpretation of it such as the toggle.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

But, hell, I've had that issue with Telekinesis where a tank got pissed 'cause the enemy cluster suddenly moved 'behind him' but still in melee range. Like. Literally. The act of turning around to throw more punches was SUCH an imposition.

I mean yeah, I'd be annoyed too if the mob I'd spent time gathering up was suddenly in a different place.

 

Thankfully, you can simply elect to leave teams where your experience is happening.

Edited 8 hours ago by macskull

[tidge]

11 hours ago, macskull said:

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to stop using KB or repel in the 18 years I've been playing this game, and I have spent a lot of time on Energy Blast and Storm Summoning characters.

 

If you're using KB well, no one on the team is even going to notice you're doing it.

 

I think in the last six years I've seen more PUG requests that (non-Grav, non-Kheldian) players stop using Fold Space than I've seen requests to neuter Knockback (from Energy Blast, Ki Push, blah, blah, fishcakes).... and I haven't seen many of those. It often feels like there is a triad of powers that can set off certain players:

 

1) Fold Space

2) AoE Immobilizes/Holds

3) AoE knockback

 

...and let's not forget Group Fly, because who has time to stop at Null the Gull on the way to the START vendor for 2XP/Pocket D exploration Badges/Alignment change?

 

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Some folks are freaking RABID over the idea of having to move or change the angle of their cones. Like combat is a spreadsheet of perfectly timed and maximized flow-charts for power activations and the slightest alteration of their activity is a MASSIVE BURDEN.

 

Some players get RABID about anything and everything that disrupts their mental model of peak efficiency/fun/team composition. Specific to knockback... surely players have already recognized that the critter AI already has enemies self-scattering, let alone that pretty much every mission in the game has enemy spawns in different rooms (that players have to move to).

 

[Steampunkette]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

I mean yeah, I'd be annoyed too if the mob I'd spent time gathering up was suddenly in a different place.

 

Thankfully, you can simply elect to leave teams where your experience is happening.

Telekinesis yanks mobs into a single small area.

 

That small area was "On the tank, slightly to one side, tightly packed" instead of "loose spread around the tank"

 

But even -that- is too much for your own tastes.

 

What is your definition of "a way that actually benefits the team" if this is too far?