Knockback Protection Toggle: To make enemies resistant to KB.

[Steampunkette]

Simple enough. A Toggle you buy from the START Vendor. Let's say 10,000,000 for 1 hour of active use, and you can buy up to 10 hours of total use at a time.

 

Toggle it on. Enemies within 10-15ft gain +20 magnitudes of Repel and Teleport Protection, and +1000% Knockback Resistance so all KB becomes KD inside the area. Enemies do not notice this effect. This effect generates no Aggro. Make the duration on the enemy 5 seconds, non-stacking, applied every .5 seconds.

 

Voila! Now you have a solution to people's complaints about KB! They can just toggle that thing on, run into melee, and enjoy the enemies being rooted to the ground, unable to get moved away from you by any force in the City of Heroes!

 

No one else on the team needs to change their build to slot specific IOs. No one else on the team needs to use the toggle. Just you! You can just run in and enjoy the complete KB negation you heart desires!

 

And hey! It doubles as a nice Influence Sink to help relieve some of the market pressures of people running around with 2 Billion inf on half their characters!

 

No more worrying about whether other people took the time to make their build KB Free. No more griping and kicking people off your team because they didn't slot KD IOs. No need to quit teams because someone else is using KB powers!

 

Just toggle it on, go run into melee, and enjoy the peace of mind that comes with doing it yourself to handle the problem for everyone, rather than demanding everyone cater to you, instead!

 

Bonus points: Make an alternate toggle version where you use a GTAOE version of same! That way people who are too cowardly to run into melee range can instead spend a clock cycle to lock down the KB "Over There" before the fight starts!

Edited Tuesday at 08:51 PM by Steampunkette

[Psyonico]

I'd rather the power give some large percentage of knockback resistance rather than flat protection.

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I'd rather the power give some large percentage of knockback resistance rather than flat protection.

Oh. Sure?

 

Like 95%+? I'd be down with that, too. That way they still get knocked down, just not knocked back?

 

But you'd need the Repel and TP -Protection- for them to not get stolen or pushed/pulled away from you.

[Psyonico]

Sure, keep the repel/TP protection then give it 1000% resistance or something like that (100% resistance would only cut the mag in half, we want it to turn everything into knock down)

[Steampunkette]

Thanks! I'll go ahead and change the OP for that!

[Psi-bolt]

Needs a higher radius, something like 200 feet centered on the caster.  Instead of a temp power it should a prestige power.  Ten million influence makes sense.  
 

The problem with a 10-15 ft is that only melee characters can make use of it.  My Ice Blasters would love to have this for Blizzard.

[Ghost]

Are there any other powers you can buy that negate the powers of other players?

[Steampunkette]

9 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Needs a higher radius, something like 200 feet centered on the caster.  Instead of a temp power it should a prestige power.  Ten million influence makes sense.  
 

The problem with a 10-15 ft is that only melee characters can make use of it.  My Ice Blasters would love to have this for Blizzard.

HAH! No.

 

You can use the secondary power suggested in the OP: The GTAOE version where enemies "Over There" get affected. Or maybe a target-toggle AoE like Darkest Night for KB Resistance. You want to completely negate knockback in your special little area, feel free. But it just goes to keep showing how little you care about other people's enjoyment when you post stuff like this.

 

This is me, reaching across the KB-KD divide, offering a mouse a cookie, and the mouse demanding all the milk in Wisconsin.

 

"Meet me in the middle" says the unjust man, right before taking a step back.

43 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Are there any other powers you can buy that negate the powers of other players?

No.

 

But you can turn off Speed Buffs or Auto-Reject Mystic Fortunes and the like without paying anything. And several AoE Immobilizes provide KB Protection to enemies they land on, too, so it's not entirely unheard of.

 

Worth noting, however: You still deal your damage and the enemy gets KDed instead of KBed. So your power is still having a significant effect, just like how Speed Boost gives the player the recovery/recharge bonus even if they ignore the +Speed component. 

[Ghost]

11 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

 

But you can turn off Speed Buffs or Auto-Reject Mystic Fortunes and the like without paying anything. And several AoE Immobilizes provide KB Protection to enemies they land on, too, so it's not entirely unheard of.

 

Worth noting, however: You still deal your damage and the enemy gets KDed instead of KBed. So your power is still having a significant effect, just like how Speed Boost gives the player the recovery/recharge bonus even if they ignore the +Speed component. 

Still not the same thing.

In the examples you mention, you are refusing buffs - much different than turning off another players ability to buff.

 

What happens to those players who use KB as a defensive ability?

 

To be blunt.
This is worse than “I’m gonna tell you how you should play”, because it’s now “you have no choice but to play how I want you to play”

 

 

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

Still not the same thing.

In the examples you mention, you are refusing buffs - much different than turning off another players ability to buff.

 

What happens to those players who use KB as a defensive ability?

 

To be blunt.
This is worse than “I’m gonna tell you how you should play”, because it’s now “you have no choice but to play how I want you to play”

 

 

I disagree...

 

1) KB and KD have similar overall survival benefit.

Yeah, certain enemies (Demon Overlords, Warwolves) can wind up taking SIGNIFICANTLY longer to get back up with full KB due to geometry issues and their skeletons, KD is only slightly shorter than KB in most instances.

 

2) I also mention AoE Immobilizes

Stone Cages, Frostbite, Living Shadows, Roots, Fire Cages, Wide Area Web Grenade, and others all have +10,000% Knockback Resistance to all affected targets.

 

3) My suggestions were for a PBAoE Aura or GTAoE

In the former, the enemies are next to the person who doesn't want KB, so they're probably maxing out aggro with their silliness. In the second, it's a discrete area. In both cases, it's a localized phenomenon that doesn't stop you from using KB to defend yourself from targets that aren't in the specific area.

 

Kinda like all the AoE Immobilizes I referenced.

[Psi-bolt]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

HAH! No.

 

You can use the secondary power suggested in the OP: The GTAOE version where enemies "Over There" get affected. Or maybe a target-toggle AoE like Darkest Night for KB Resistance. You want to completely negate knockback in your special little area, feel free. But it just goes to keep showing how little you care about other people's enjoyment when you post stuff like this.

 

This is me, reaching across the KB-KD divide, offering a mouse a cookie, and the mouse demanding all the milk in Wisconsin.

 

"Meet me in the middle" says the unjust man, right before taking a step back.

 

Please be honest.  Your OP isn't a serious proposal and it is materially worse than the suggestion you're reacting too.   The other post, suggests ways for players to affect their own powers.  Here you suggest providing others ways to negate others powers.  It's honestly much more hostile to KB than the suggestion of universal enhancers or KB-KD toggles.  

 

My response was tongue in cheek, but perhaps I made it look too authentic.  I originally put the radius at 10,000 meters which would be zone wide.   

 

If I were responding to your post legitimately, I would just say that with the cost you have imposed it would be much easier to use the current solution.   Refuse to play with folks with KB, either by kicking them unceremoniously from your teams or quitting teams with them.   I don't think that shunning is a good thing which is why I want to provide MORE options to people who want to reduce KB in THEIR powers.  Literally something that can be done right now via enhancers.  

[Steampunkette]

7 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Please be honest.  Your OP isn't a serious proposal

Yes. It 100% is.

 

Not only is it a serious proposal, I explicitly altered it to better conform to game mechanics to ensure KB turned to KD instead of just being entirely negated based on poster feedback.

 

7 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

and it is materially worse than the suggestion you're reacting too.   

To you. Because you don't want to have to change anything for yourself to reduce the KB in missions, you just want EVERYONE ELSE to change how they play, build, etc, or fuck off away from you if they won't capitulate to your no-KB position.

 

You've made that incredibly clear by trying to frame "You can slot KB to KD or have the choice to find other teams" bullshit.

7 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

The other post, suggests ways for players to affect their own powers. 

Yes. For players to affect their own powers in a way that makes it more and more reasonable and widespread to change your build to capitulate to a vocal group who refuse to accept KB on their teams.

 

The knock-on effect of which is just more and more threads requesting more ways for people who have KB in their build to change their build to capitulate to the No-KB paradigm until it's the standard.

 

Which is trash.

7 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

Here you suggest providing others ways to negate others powers.

No, no. Reduce one aspect of a power (KB) to another aspect of a power (KD). That doesn't "Negate" powers.

 

It also only happens if someone who is so infuriatingly smarmy about KB is willing to spend 10,000,000 influence for an hour without KB of any kind.

 

Bonus points: It means no one ever needs to change their build to slot the KB to KD IOs unless they specifically want to. 'Cause all of you Anti-KB folks have the option of making KB into KD in your special little zone. Even if it's your -own- KB.

 

Just think! No need for KB to KD IOs in your builds even when soloing! Just click a toggle and go!

7 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

  It's honestly much more hostile to KB than the suggestion of universal enhancers or KB-KD toggles.  

Nah. It'll do 3 things.

 

1) Show how few people really deeply care about KB in the game.

2) Give those few people a complete guarantee there'll be no KB around them.

3) Barely be noticeable to people who like KB 'cause the KD zone will be specific rather than global.

 

And hey. That'll reduce the extant pressure to hunt for specific teams for your preferred playstyle, change your build to accommodate others, or kick people from your team 'cause you, personally, hate KB.

7 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

My response was tongue in cheek, but perhaps I made it look too authentic.  I originally put the radius at 10,000 meters which would be zone wide.

Honestly, I don't care how wide you would've made it or if you meant it to be tongue in cheek. 

 

You've shown, rather pointedly, you don't actually care about other people having fun. You only want things to conform to the way you want to play. The second the imposition is on the side of the people who don't want KB it's an unserious suggestion.

7 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

If I were responding to your post legitimately, I would just say that with the cost you have imposed it would be much easier to use the current solution.   Refuse to play with folks with KB, either by kicking them unceremoniously from your teams or quitting teams with them.   I don't think that shunning is a good thing which is why I want to provide MORE options to people who want to reduce KB in THEIR powers.  Literally something that can be done right now via enhancers.  

Which goes back to "Other people should change their KB to KD so they can be part of teams with people who hate KB"

 

The "Solution" to the aforementioned shunning (which is unilateral, obviously) is that everyone should conform to the Anti-KB brigade and the Anti-KB brigade should change nothing.

 

At least this suggestion demands the folks who want to curate their experience to actually do something to curate it rather than demand action of others.

 

That said, if you wanna haggle over the price, that's fine. The suggestion itself, however? Serious as a heart attack.

[MTeague]

As much as I want to support this suggestion, I cannot, not while it nullifies Repel as well.  

Hurricane plus no one being repel'd?  Yes, thank you, but that would be Seriously OP.

 

I mean, if the Devs want to go for that,  make no mistake, I will abuse it on my Storm Summoning characters, but that would be a big power increase.

[Steampunkette]

13 minutes ago, MTeague said:

As much as I want to support this suggestion, I cannot, not while it nullifies Repel as well.  

Hurricane plus no one being repel'd?  Yes, thank you, but that would be Seriously OP.

 

I mean, if the Devs want to go for that,  make no mistake, I will abuse it on my Storm Summoning characters, but that would be a big power increase.

Y'know, that's a good point. But how do we make it work? After all, we've gotta help these Anti-KB folks out, and if this toggle gets implemented you know they'll complain that Repel isn't also covered...

 

Definitely make the powers Mutually Exclusive. Any toggle with a Repel Component automatically Detoggles this power. That, at least, would stop you from abusing it, solo.

 

But it doesn't help in a Team situation where you're using Hurricane while standing on the Scrapper with a Taunt Aura and this thing toggled on at the same time.

 

This -is- a puzzle...

 

Resistance to Repel is still a stat...

 

If we change it to, say, +1,000% Resistance to repel, would that keep them being pushed a -little- without getting flung outward?

Edited Wednesday at 01:35 PM by Steampunkette

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

To you. Because you don't want to have to change anything for yourself to reduce the KB in missions, you just want EVERYONE ELSE to change how they play, build, etc, or fuck off away from you if they won't capitulate to your no-KB position.

 

Honestly, I don't know how many ways I can explain that I want this for my own play.

 

But I take none of this personally, I really hope you don't.   So let me ask you for your reaction to approaching the issue in a different way.   Not that the developers would ever do this, but would you still feel the same (that this was somehow forcing others how to play) if there were two new sets created:

 

1. Energy Emission - same visuals, numbers as Energy Blast but secondary effect changed to -resistance
2. Peacebringer Intern (Don't react to the name please) - Again same visuals, but where the secondary effect is KB, it changes to -resistance

[Indystruck]

5 hours ago, Ghost said:

Are there any other powers you can buy that negate the powers of other players?

 

Group Fly negates Super Speed, yeah.

[Steampunkette]

17 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Honestly, I don't know how many ways I can explain that I want this for my own play.

You say that, and it's certainly true.

 

But you also see "Slot even more of your powers with more KB to KD or get kicked off of teams" as a valid choice between two people with differing perspectives and not just a choice between two ways to capitulate to one side's demands. 

 

The Anti-KB crowd gets what they want, and anyone who likes KB gets shunned or accused of griefing or trolling for playing the game.

17 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

But I take none of this personally, I really hope you don't.

Personally? Nah. You haven't said anything personal.

 

I don't find it particularly compelling, either, though.

17 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

   So let me ask you for your reaction to approaching the issue in a different way.   Not that the developers would ever do this, but would you still feel the same (that this was somehow forcing others how to play) if there were two new sets created:

1. Energy Emission - same visuals, numbers as Energy Blast but secondary effect changed to -resistance
2. Peacebringer Intern (Don't react to the name please) - Again same visuals, but where the secondary effect is KB, it changes to -resistance

I'd feel like it was a massive waste of time and effort to try and erase Knockback from the game which would likely result in increasing demands from the Anti-KB community to keep removing KB.

 

Up to and including cutting Energy Blast now that Energy Emission exists in the game.

Edited Wednesday at 03:15 PM by Steampunkette

[Psi-bolt]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

You say that, and it's certainly true.

 

But you also see "Slot even more of your powers with more KB to KD or get kicked off of teams r" as a valid choice between two people with differing perspectives and not just a choice between two ways to capitulate to one side's demands. 

 

The Anti-KB crowd gets what they want, and anyone who likes KB gets shunned or accused of griefing or trolling for playing the game.

 

That's fair, while I wouldn't do it personally, I do think everyone has the right to enjoy their play time.  I think it's extreme and unreasonable to kick someone who is using KB from the team, but I can't reasonably say that people shouldn't have the right to do that.  

 

Quote

Personally? Nah. You haven't said anything personal.

 

I don't find it particularly compelling, either, though.

 

Great!  Glad for the discussion.

 

Quote

I'd feel like it was a massive waste of time and effort to try and erase Knockback from the game which would likely result in increasing demands from the Anti-KB community to keep removing KB.

 

Up to and including cutting Energy Blast now that Energy Emission exists in the game.

 

I agree that it would be a waste of time, but I just don't want to pay the slot tax.   I actually did pay the tax on my Peacebringer, hell I even bought the enhancers for an Energy Blaster, but it kills my build goals everyway I look at it to actually slot them.   

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Psi-bolt said:

I agree that it would be a waste of time, but I just don't want to pay the slot tax.   I actually did pay the tax on my Peacebringer, hell I even bought the enhancers for an Energy Blaster, but it kills my build goals everyway I look at it to actually slot them.   

Ultimately, this is why I think the onus of 'fixing' the problem belongs on the shoulders of the people who don't want KB.

 

Because either EVERYONE has to pay the slot tax or get shunned... Or the person who doesn't want KB can have a method to disable KB in their immediate vicinity so they can have their fun without forcing other people to do anything.

[Uun]

There are a lot of powers in the game that apply knockback/knockup resistance to foes. This includes most of the ST and AoE immobilizes, including those in blaster secondaries, and quite a few of the ST holds.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Ultimately, this is why I think the onus of 'fixing' the problem belongs on the shoulders of the people who don't want KB.

 

Because either EVERYONE has to pay the slot tax or get shunned... Or the person who doesn't want KB can have a method to disable KB in their immediate vicinity so they can have their fun without forcing other people to do anything.

Let’s take this a step further, because once the door has been opened….

 

These are complaints that have popped up from time to time on here.

-I don’t like group fly, so we should be able to stop anyone from using it within 50ft of my toon.

-I don’t like when a blaster wades into a mob and nukes everything, so we should be able to block blasters nukes within 50ft

-I don’t like when people self rez before I can revive them, so we should be able to disable all self rezzes.

 

Once a complaint about a persons play style is addressed in a drastic manner, more complaints about other play styles will start cropping up with the expectation that they are also addressed in an equally drastic manner.

 

To be clear, I am not pro-KB.

I am however completely against someone else dictating how a person gets to play their toon, or which powers they are allowed to use, or how they are allowed to use them.

If KB bothers, don’t run on teams in which it’s present.

better yet, start your own “No KB allowed” teams.

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:33 PM by Ghost

[dukedukes]

Some issues regardless of my stance:

• Hurricane debuff is too good to apply all the time
• Repulsion Field kb would likely trigger constantly to close targets
• Black Hole might end up phasing all targets if they're immune to repel, so you'd need phase protection too

 

Repel players would not like this, myself included. Maybe if it was kb convert only and single target or a tiny aoe I wouldn't have much issue as this happens anyway with some powers as others have mentioned, but there is no power currently that disables repel for other people, other than phasing. There are some of us that can use these mechanics very well and is a good chunk of the fun this game has to offer. Disabling my character would not be cool...

[Luminara]

As suggestions revolving around restricting KB go, this one isn't bad.  But HC is already invested in KB Resistance for most AoE Immobilizations, so it's unlikely they'll change direction.

[RadiantPhoenix]

22 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Simple enough. A Toggle you buy from the START Vendor. Let's say 10,000,000 for 1 hour of active use, and you can buy up to 10 hours of total use at a time.

 

Toggle it on. Enemies within 10-15ft gain +20 magnitudes of Repel and Teleport Protection, and +1000% Knockback Resistance so all KB becomes KD inside the area. Enemies do not notice this effect. This effect generates no Aggro. Make the duration on the enemy 5 seconds, non-stacking, applied every .5 seconds.

 

Voila! Now you have a solution to people's complaints about KB! They can just toggle that thing on, run into melee, and enjoy the enemies being rooted to the ground, unable to get moved away from you by any force in the City of Heroes!

 

No one else on the team needs to change their build to slot specific IOs. No one else on the team needs to use the toggle. Just you! You can just run in and enjoy the complete KB negation you heart desires!

 

And hey! It doubles as a nice Influence Sink to help relieve some of the market pressures of people running around with 2 Billion inf on half their characters!

 

No more worrying about whether other people took the time to make their build KB Free. No more griping and kicking people off your team because they didn't slot KD IOs. No need to quit teams because someone else is using KB powers!

 

Just toggle it on, go run into melee, and enjoy the peace of mind that comes with doing it yourself to handle the problem for everyone, rather than demanding everyone cater to you, instead!

 

Bonus points: Make an alternate toggle version where you use a GTAOE version of same! That way people who are too cowardly to run into melee range can instead spend a clock cycle to lock down the KB "Over There" before the fight starts!

How about instead of making enemies resist KB, we get a Null the Gull setting that changes the direction of your KB to "down"?

IIRC, they made Knock vectored back in 2021.

[Steampunkette]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

Let’s take this a step further, because once the door has been opened….

 

These are complaints that have popped up from time to time on here.

-I don’t like group fly, so we should be able to stop anyone from using it within 50ft of my toon.

-I don’t like when a blaster wades into a mob and nukes everything, so we should be able to block blasters nukes within 50ft

-I don’t like when people self rez before I can revive them, so we should be able to disable all self rezzes.

Slippery Slope detected!

 

Anyway. Yeah. If you don't like Group Fly you should have the option to be immune to group fly. Other people can still use and benefit from that power, you just aren't affected. This would be a more accurate comparison.

 

Blaster Nuke thing is an EXTREMELY out there argument which amounts to arguing to absurdity.

 

Self-Rez is just balls to the wall insane argument to absurdity.

 

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

Once a complaint about a persons play style is addressed in a drastic manner, more complaints about other play styles will start cropping up with the expectation that they are also addressed in an equally drastic manner.

No. They aren't.

 

This is gonna shock you, but people CAN tell the difference between Gay Marriage and Sex With Ducks.

 

 

People can recognize that there's some reason some people might dislike KB reducing their effectiveness without immediately accepting that self-rezzing ruins someone else's good fun.

 

(Granted it's not a perfect metaphor, since Gay Marriage is infinitely less onerous on the populous than the Anti-KB Hatred in this community is, but I just really wanted and excuse to use the song and point out how bananas this slippery slope argument is)

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

To be clear, I am not pro-KB.

I am however completely against someone else dictating how a person gets to play their toon, or which powers they are allowed to use, or how they are allowed to use them.

If KB bothers, don’t run on teams in which it’s present.

better yet, start your own “No KB allowed” teams.

Not only does KB not bother me, I much prefer to play WITH KB. Myself and the KB of others.

 

I am, however, against the CONSTANT pressure from the Anti-KB community to either change the entire game to be KB free or demand that anyone who has any KB power slot an ever increasing number of KB Stopping IOs in order to appease their playstyle.

 

At least this way the onus is on them, and the impact is limited, rather than it being a constant fight.

Edited Wednesday at 07:32 PM by Steampunkette