What might have CoH2 looked like

[justicebeliever]

I saw two interesting articles today...

 

1.) Russo Brothers might be doing a Battle of the Planets live action movie (favorite cartoon of mine as a kid when it was on)

 

2.) MassivelyOP talking about parts of what a City of Heroes 2 might have looked like: https://massivelyop.com/2019/07/19/into-the-super-verse-a-possible-glimpse-into-city-of-heroes-2/

 

We've had this conversation before, but it looks like what NCSoft was thinking about sounds pretty cool...Thoughts?

 

I was really jazzed about the idea of them developing an ArchNemesis systems, and this quote "Affect the world, leave your mark"

[Xaeon]

>Levelling up costumes.

 

AAaaaaAAAaaAAAAAAAAAAHHHhhhHHHHHHHH

[Abraxus]

In my fantasy world (you know, the one where I am also a lottery winner), the phoenix like rise of this game from its own ashes gets the attention of the RIGHT people who finally see it's potential, who buy up the rights, and fully legitimize the current game while working on City of Heroes 2!  I'm sure NCSoft would love to be rid of it for the right price, and someone with the fantasy dollars would offer the right price (whatever that is).  Then they would devote some resources to tweaking the current game so it's a little more viable, and attractive to a newer audience, while all the development for the next version is going on.

 

I know, in my dreams.  But, then...who would have ever thought we'd be playing the original again, so crazier things have happened.  ;D

 

[justicebeliever]

In my fantasy world (you know, the one where I am also a lottery winner), the phoenix like rise of this game from its own ashes gets the attention of the RIGHT people who finally see it's potential, who buy up the rights, and fully legitimize the current game while working on City of Heroes 2!  I'm sure NCSoft would love to be rid of it for the right price, and someone with the fantasy dollars would offer the right price (whatever that is).  Then they would devote some resources to tweaking the current game so it's a little more viable, and attractive to a newer audience, while all the development for the next version is going on.

 

I know, in my dreams.  But, then...who would have ever thought we'd be playing the original again, so crazier things have happened.  ;D

 

Man, you have way better dreams than I do.  I dreamt last night that a giant spider tried to eat my face. 

[PSLAnimal]

In my fantasy world (you know, the one where I am also a lottery winner), the phoenix like rise of this game from its own ashes gets the attention of the RIGHT people who finally see it's potential, who buy up the rights, and fully legitimize the current game while working on City of Heroes 2!  I'm sure NCSoft would love to be rid of it for the right price, and someone with the fantasy dollars would offer the right price (whatever that is).  Then they would devote some resources to tweaking the current game so it's a little more viable, and attractive to a newer audience, while all the development for the next version is going on.

 

I know, in my dreams.  But, then...who would have ever thought we'd be playing the original again, so crazier things have happened.  ;D

 

Man, you have way better dreams than I do.  I dreamt last night that a giant spider tried to eat my face.

 

So, you've been playing Skyrim?

[EggKookoo]

Sadly, CoH2 would have been all F2P/P2W. It would probably have lootboxes.

 

CoH's cancellation was a blessing in hindsight (given its rebirth).

[jack_nomind]

I was really jazzed about the idea of them developing an ArchNemesis systems, and this quote "Affect the world, leave your mark"

 

(It seems like the pdf is gone.  I'm going on what the two articles say.)

 

I'm an inveterate cynic.  When I saw the early hype for No Man's Sky, I said they couldn't do what they were promising on consume-grade hardware (at the time).  Games that I thought could potentially deliver on their promises (enough that I bought in on backer packages) included Champions, Firefall, and Warframe; Champions and Firefall almost made it (but were mismanaged) and Warframe pulled through.  I think Paragon/NCSoft could have delivered some version of everything claimed in the document.  Sort of.

 

One of the... layers... to this cynicism is realizing that marketing will promise everything developers say might be possible, and then the developers are held to delivering some version of that thing.  This leads to kind of an "evil genie" effect where a promised feature is implemented in a way that is technically true (or close) to what was promised, but hideously different than players expected.  (Or worse, leadership comes up with a feature deliberately intended to drive revenue even against player and/or developer interests and marketing spins it as a positive feature.)

 

What I read as actually being promised, then, are:

 

• Character creation, probably somewhat similar to Champions.
  
• Powers customization, probably somewhat similar to Champions.
  
• A skill, attribute, or enhancement system that has progress bars to mastery, with powers doing some % of full effectiveness before mastery is achieved.  Progress happens both on- and offline.
  
• Maximum active abilities locked to some number, probably 4 to 8, somewhere between Warframe and Guild Wars.  This is necessary to make a console-friendly game.
  
• More PvP focus and destructible (but non-persistent) PvP zones.  Most likely this would be structured or event-based PvP, not open-world; I imagine this would work about as well as it did in Champions, Warframe, or Firefall.
  
• More 'physics objects.'  There probably would be a Big Red Ball.
  
• More locks/gates on content to provide a more structured experience; think SWTOR, which was released around that time.

 

Overall I think Champions gives us a very good preview of what CoH2 would have looked like in many ways.  I'm a little happy that the Paragon devs rebelled and tried to develop a totally different game, even if it ended up biting us all in the ass.

[Abraxus]

I would not have liked CoH turning into CO.  Incorporating the better aspects, perhaps.  But please don't copy their combat system, or power configuration matrices.  Those are part of the many reasons I never played past my initial 3 month subscription, and never went back.  Not even in desperation, before the return of CoH.

[Xaeon]

Sadly, CoH2 would have been all F2P/P2W. It would probably have lootboxes.

 

CoH's cancellation was a blessing in hindsight (given its rebirth).

Wot necessarily; there is the path Warframe took which has no lootboxes nor pay to win.

[Zep]

In my fantasy world (you know, the one where I am also a lottery winner), the phoenix like rise of this game from its own ashes gets the attention of the RIGHT people who finally see it's potential, who buy up the rights, and fully legitimize the current game while working on City of Heroes 2!  I'm sure NCSoft would love to be rid of it for the right price, and someone with the fantasy dollars would offer the right price (whatever that is).  Then they would devote some resources to tweaking the current game so it's a little more viable, and attractive to a newer audience, while all the development for the next version is going on.

 

I know, in my dreams.  But, then...who would have ever thought we'd be playing the original again, so crazier things have happened.  ;D

 

Man, you have way better dreams than I do.  I dreamt last night that a giant spider tried to eat my face.

 

Your supposed to be spending your time watching me to playing with spiders.

[Primantis]

 

• More locks/gates on content to provide a more structured experience; think SWTOR, which was released around that time.

 

 

 

Bleh, no thank you. Being able to do just about any content on a fresh toon is one thing I love about CoH. Sure there are Level restrictions for TFs, but for the most part you can roll up a new toon and join your buddies in any level range.

 

Content locks are such a pain in MMOs. They prevent you from teaming up with your pals. Sometimes it's so bad that it's a pain to even team up if you *started together* at the same time. This is especially true with MMOs using "Phasing" so you cant even see each other unless you're on the same quest line..

 

Sure it might by less narrative-driven this way, but I much prefer the old school approach of "Toss everyone in, let them team without worrying that they are synced to the same part of the story"

[PaxArcana]

A THOUGHT OCCURRED TO ME ... if NCSoft is actually (currently) considering the development of City of Heroes II, that could have provided them with the motivation to not step on this game (at least, until the new one launches):  free marketing.

[srmalloy]

What I read as actually being promised, then, are:

 

• Character creation, probably somewhat similar to Champions.
  
• Powers customization, probably somewhat similar to Champions.
  
• A skill, attribute, or enhancement system that has progress bars to mastery, with powers doing some % of full effectiveness before mastery is achieved.  Progress happens both on- and offline.
  
• Maximum active abilities locked to some number, probably 4 to 8, somewhere between Warframe and Guild Wars.  This is necessary to make a console-friendly game.
  
• More PvP focus and destructible (but non-persistent) PvP zones.  Most likely this would be structured or event-based PvP, not open-world; I imagine this would work about as well as it did in Champions, Warframe, or Firefall.
  
• More 'physics objects.'  There probably would be a Big Red Ball.
  
• More locks/gates on content to provide a more structured experience; think SWTOR, which was released around that time.

 

Based on NCsoft's track record with Asian-style MMOs, I would also expect:

• Powerset unlocks for single characters (i.e., buy access to a powerset, you can create one character with that powerset)
  
• Costume piece unlocks specific to the character they're purchased on
  
• Character-specific content unlocks
  
• All unlocks paid for with the NCcoin currency purchased directly from NCsoft, with no revenue going to Paragon Studios
  
• Group-dependent content in the primary advancement line required for character progression, shifting from solo-friendly content in the starter zone(s) to group-mandated content by the middle levels.

 

All of the above are based off of the dependency of most Asian MMOs on a microtransaction-based cash shop that produces the vast majority of the revenue from the MMO.

[justicebeliever]

Based on NCsoft's track record with Asian-style MMOs, I would also expect:

• All unlocks paid for with the NCcoin currency purchased directly from NCsoft, with no revenue going to Paragon Studios
  

 

Paragon Studios (formerly NCSoft West) was wholly owned by NCSoft...I mean the revenue model might still be the same, but it’s not like they are undercutting Paragon Studios

[Healix]

Man, you have way better dreams than I do.  I dreamt last night that a giant spider tried to eat my face.

 

Justice, let's hope that SOME dreams don't come true!!!!!!

 

[justicebeliever]

Man, you have way better dreams than I do.  I dreamt last night that a giant spider tried to eat my face.

 

Justice, let's hope that SOME dreams don't come true!!!!!!

 

 

AAAAARRRGGGGHHHH!

 

*runs out of room, slams door, runs downstairs, out front door & burns down house*

[jack_nomind]

Wot necessarily; there is the path Warframe took which has no lootboxes nor pay to win.

 

it's got both

 

they were sensitive enough to minimize the card packs when it became clear just how much gamers hate 'surprise mechanics,' but they never pulled them and one relatively recent design council question was how to revitalize them.  yes, people really do buy those.

 

as far as pay to win -- modern p2w games always work on the same principle.  there's a random mechanic, like a gatcha or low drop dungeon, that you can earn in-game if you spend enough time at it or get really lucky; or you can spend a few bucks to skip the long grind and randomness to get it immediately.

 

ever try to unlock atlas?  nidus?  ivara?

[srmalloy]

Based on NCsoft's track record with Asian-style MMOs, I would also expect:

• All unlocks paid for with the NCcoin currency purchased directly from NCsoft, with no revenue going to Paragon Studios
  

 

Paragon Studios (formerly NCSoft West) was wholly owned by NCSoft...I mean the revenue model might still be the same, but it’s not like they are undercutting Paragon Studios

 

The cash shop driven by NCcoin is something NCsoft was doing with all their other games; the intent was to have the cash shop income going directly to NCsoft, who would then decide how much or even whether the production company would receive from the purchases. Another example of the carrot-and-stick management style NCsoft had.

[justicebeliever]

The cash shop driven by NCcoin is something NCsoft was doing with all their other games; the intent was to have the cash shop income going directly to NCsoft, who would then decide how much or even whether the production company would receive from the purchases. Another example of the carrot-and-stick management style NCsoft had.

 

I guess I don't really see an issue with that.  Paragon Studios budget, every year was set by NCSoft.  They'd decide how a production company would meet it's targets for revenue and expenses.  If Paragon Studios got the money, it would still go to NCSoft regardless...

 

I mean this is the nature of many subsidiary corporations...

 

EDIT:  Want to lighten the harshness of my statement...Please expand srmalloy, because I'm taking the comment I quoted from you as a criticism on NCSoft's business model (which in itself I'm not defending).  If it was a criticism, I guess I'm not seeing the bad...

[Williwaw]

"GameStudio spent $X in expenditures but made $Y from selling GameStudioPoints" makes the studio look a lot better than "GameStudio spent $X in expenditures but made $0 because all the NCCoin money went straight to NCSoft rather than to GameStudio".

 

It's easy to make it look like even a successful studio is failing.

[justicebeliever]

"GameStudio spent $X in expenditures but made $Y from selling GameStudioPoints" makes the studio look a lot better than "GameStudio spent $X in expenditures but made $0 because all the NCCoin money went straight to NCSoft rather than to GameStudio".

 

It's easy to make it look like even a successful studio is failing.

 

But they are the same entity.  They aren't in competition.  And in the budgeting process it'll be clear they are going to get zero rev from microtransactions, so the revenue target won't include microtransactions.  And they'll know which studio genererated which microtransactions based on the game the were purchased in, so it's not like the studio can't say how much $$ they generated for ncsoft.

 

I’m not tryig to be obtuse or argumentative, i just really don’t get why we think NCSoft was at odds with Prargon Studios...

[jubakumbi]

"GameStudio spent $X in expenditures but made $Y from selling GameStudioPoints" makes the studio look a lot better than "GameStudio spent $X in expenditures but made $0 because all the NCCoin money went straight to NCSoft rather than to GameStudio".

 

It's easy to make it look like even a successful studio is failing.

 

But they are the same entity.  They aren't in competition.  And in the budgeting process it'll be clear they are going to get zero rev from microtransactions, so the revenue target won't include microtransactions.  And they'll know which studio genererated which microtransactions based on the game the were purchased in, so it's not like the studio can't say how much $$ they generated for ncsoft.

 

I’m not tryig to be obtuse or argumentative, i just really don’t get why we think NCSoft was at odds with Prargon Studios...

 

Williwaw has the right gist IMO.

Companies play the shell game all the time to decide what part made money.

Reality and facts are just tools to be exploited by accounting firms, IME.

I have watched people do it in RL.

[PaxArcana]

I think people are completely misunderstanding (or maybe just forgetting) what "Paragon Studios" was and wasn't.

 

They were not a separate company.

 

They did not have the same "at arm's length" relationship with NCSoft that Cryptic did.  PS was completely owned by NCSoft.

 

It was .... well, look at Ubisoft.  They have several separate studios all around the world - Ubisoft Montreal, and Ubisoft Berlin, and Ubisoft Toronto, and Ubisoft Bucharest, and Ubisoft Reflections (that one's in Newcastle-on-Tyne, England), and several more.  Those aren't separate companies; they are all part of Ubisoft's global corporate "self".

 

Paragon was to NC, in much the same way.