Trademarked characters.

[justicebeliever]

16 hours ago, Abraxus said:

How do they know?  Well, if they hadn't become aware due to the myriad of other potential sources of such information, the fact that the Homecoming team was in direct talks with them was probably a dead giveaway.  We don't know the specifics, and we don't know the status.  We only know it was happening. 

They also said in their Open Letter to Homecoming that SCORE had received a C&D on releasing the game's binaries...So not only are they aware, they are interested in some level of protecting their stuff...

[jubakumbi]

Characters made on this server in this setting are bascially like players cosplaying.

No one gets in trouble for dressing as Hulk on halloween.

 

So sick of this FUD.

[justicebeliever]

17 hours ago, Sunsette said:

So I don't know if I'd use the phrase "tacit permission", but NCSoft's silence has been meaningful and is fairly unusual across IP holders in America. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. It is relevant that in the last few years the LOC ruled that private servers were broadly legal for abandonware, but there's the additional complication that HC has access to the official backend and I really have no idea where that could go. Also the LOC isn't binding so much as guidance here. 

But abadonware requires that the copyright holder be unknown or defunct, right?  And the LOC guidance was limited to the original source code (legally provided, not copied), and had to be played on premises.  Just curious your opinion, I have been following this as well...

[justicebeliever]

6 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Characters made on this server in this setting are bascially like players cosplaying.

No one gets in trouble for dressing as Hulk on halloween.

 

So sick of this FUD.

You and I have been around on this on other threads...I agree we really shouldn't have to keep covering this topic every month...The risk is low, the risk is uncontrollable, and there are far greater risks out there...So play how you want while you can...

[Abraxus]

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

You and I have been around on this on other threads...I agree we really shouldn't have to keep covering this topic every month...The risk is low, the risk is uncontrollable, and there are far greater risks out there...So play how you want while you can...

That's life in a nutshell right there!

[jubakumbi]

6 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

You and I have been around on this on other threads...I agree we really shouldn't have to keep covering this topic every month...The risk is low, the risk is uncontrollable, and there are far greater risks out there...So play how you want while you can...

I have been fighting this fight for about 40 years, TBH.

 

The creatives that try to shame other people for not making original characters are some of the worst to me, right there with Rules Lawyers and Hall Monitors.

 

If it brings someone joy to be the Hulk for a while, then let them be.

Could be a kid learning, could be a special needs person who really needs that expressive outlet, could just be an old nerd like me that likes the Avengers.

Let them be who they want to be in thier playtime and stop trying to shame them for not being creative enough.

It's like me demaning that no one should be allowed to play that cannot write the damn game code!

Edited July 29, 2019 by jubakumbi

[Abraxus]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

It's like me demaning that no one should be allowed to play that cannot write the damn game code!

Oh man!  I was very active over at the SEGs effort before this incarnation of the game sprang into existence.  Hearing the actual coders talk about the mess that was the code for this game, I would not want to be restricted from the game for not understanding the code...especially in this case!  Even the experts have a hard time with that! 😉

Edited July 29, 2019 by Abraxus

[Arkasas]

27 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Because let's be clear...Marvel/DC aren't going to get money from HC, and are extremely unlikely to pursue end users (as likely that i would stop posting here), so the best they can get is shutting down the game

I don't know that their first line of attack would be to do that, anyway. I am not a lawyer, but I suspect they'd be happy enough if the team generic'd all IP-infringing characters and agreed to continue doing so going forward. In other words, I don't think it's an existential threat in the same way that NCsoft is.

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, Abraxus said:

Oh man!  I was very active over at the SEGs effort before this incarnation of the game sprang into existence.  Hearing the actual coders talk about the mess that was the code for this game, I would not want to be restricted from the game for not understanding the code...especially in this case!😉

I spent a large portion of my career wrangling such code - a system that had been built and tweaked for more than 20 years (still in production now at about 28 years).

It's Fun, let me tell ya'!

 

We talked about like this - think of a big house that been worked on for 50 years by multiple onwers.

You are now asked to run a new electric socket to one of the bedrooms, but it cannot touch or cross over any of the others that have been added or the house will burn down...and it needs to be using 'more modern technology', so a totally different set of inspection codes will get used...yeah...fun times!

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Arkasas said:

I don't know that their first line of attack would be to do that, anyway. I am not a lawyer, but I suspect they'd be happy enough if the team generic'd all IP-infringing characters and agreed to continue doing so going forward. In other words, I don't think it's an existential threat in the same way that NCsoft is.

I agree...they are not likely to do anything, and if so, they aren't to go after money (there isn't any).  My only point was that adding another Hulk isn't going to cause "more damage" or "more risk".  There won't be a suit for "each count" of the Hulk being on the databases...

 

 

[Arkasas]

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

I agree...they are not likely to do anything, and if so, they aren't to go after money (there isn't any).  My only point was that adding another Hulk isn't going to cause "more damage" or "more risk".  There won't be a suit for "each count" of the Hulk being on the databases...

All too true - those lawsuits cost money, you know! ;D

[PaxArcana]

The problem, Justicebeliever, is that superhero characters are BOTH.

 

Specific pictures of, for example, Superman are covered by copyright; specific stories about superman are covered by copyright.

 

But, Superman himself - the character, the overall look, the core principles of his origin story - are matters of trademark.  And that must be vigorously defended lest it be permanently lost.

[justicebeliever]

50 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

But, Superman himself - the character, the overall look, the core principles of his origin story - are matters of trademark.  And that must be vigorously defended lest it be permanently lost.

 

You can't trademark a story...or an origin.

 

The Symbol is trademarked.  The word is trademarked.  There are no doubt a few iconic images trademarked (which covers a lot of ground as far a s trademarking goes.  You can't trademark a story in any way...(but you can trademark the name of a comic book or in some cases, their characters).  You can't trademark artwork, unless it used specifically as the marketing of your products.  Certainly, Hulk Comics have had the little hulk picture in the top corner of Marvel comics for years...

 

One of the biggest concerns for trademark enforcement is to ensure the name doesn't become diluted.  Aspirin is no longer a trademark because the name became used in so many areas, without defending it, that it was impossible to recognize is at as a proper brand any longer.  Kleenex no doubt has a limited shelf life at this point as a brand name.  It's one of the big reasons the Mouse does it's work...If Disney becomes a household word that just means "fun experiences" or if the mouse ears are used for advertising all sorts of unrelated to Disney products, they lose their distinctiveness and the trademark is forfeit (it's not like someone else can take in that situation, it's just no longer trademarkable).  

 

So from a technical perspective, it's unlikely that Disney can make a case that a "Hulk" in game is going to dilute the "Hulk" brand, since if anything, it is specifically an homage, not a dilution.

 

From a practical perspective - it's done...it's too late...the horse has walked out of the barn, the flood gates were left open, pick your metaphor.  If Disney/WB wants to shut this down, they likely have all the evidence they need.  If they want HC to change policies, same thing...They certainly have the stamina to beat HC, so it's moot.  Policing it from the forums isn't going to change the practicality of the situation.  So thus, it follows, it does not practically manner in any way at this point what people do in this regard.  

 

Personally, I don't do a lot of homage characters, and certainly I don't copy an existing IP, because it's not fun for me.  But for as long as the game is around, I say let people enjoy it.

 

 

[Sunsette]

I apologize for any suggestion that homage characters are worse than original ones -- it is not what I intended, but given my personal biases, i think it is what i ended up saying, at least a little bit. You all are quite right to say there's nothing wrong with it -- it's all about what is most fun for everyone.

 

Further, while I did mean to point out that there are some legitimate causes for concern here on HC, I think @justicebeliever and others are quite right to say that it's probably not something we can realistically do anything about.

 

I like thinking about these things, but I think the best individual policy here is as always with HC: appreciate what we have here and never take it for granted. 

[GM Fiddleback]

I have/had homage characters. I find the fun is getting across who they are meant to be without making them look nearly identical nor having the same name. For instance, a few people will know why my Captain Marvel homage was called Cap'n Miracle. Others won't. To me that's an interesting way to find people who have experienced/enjoyed the same stuff I have.

 

If you're just gonna name 'em the same and make them look the same, that, to me (and this is just me me, not anything official) seems kinda low effort / lazy. but some people wanna be the 900th incarnation of Wolverine or Superman so... okay I guess. If that's fun for you, go for it.

 

But it _is_ worth noting that the original devs did work things so that most of your costuming options can't be identical to a known copyright character. Sure, some things are VERY VERY similar.... but not identical. You might say you are Captain America or Superman or whatever, but most folks will know by looking that you aren't.

[PaxArcana]

37 minutes ago, GM Fiddleback said:

the 900th incarnation of Wolverine

Female character, name "Honey Badger" ... Claws/WP or Claws/Regen Brute.  Ape the classic "yellow spandex" look as best you can.

BAM, tribute character.  😄

...

'sides, honey badgers are scarier than wolverines .... just ask every Far Cry player ever!  😄 😄 😄

[GM Fiddleback]

16 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Female character, name "Honey Badger" ... Claws/WP or Claws/Regen Brute.  Ape the classic "yellow spandex" look as best you can.

BAM, tribute character.  😄

...

'sides, honey badgers are scarier than wolverines .... just ask every Far Cry player ever!  😄 😄 😄

Totally reasonable and I'd be interested in seeing it.

[Abraxus]

I made an homage to John Spartan, and called him "The Demolition Man".  Dual Pistols/Energy.  The energy secondary is so that he could use "Energy Punch" to ACTUALLY knock people across the room when they were too close for the pistols to be effective.  His battle-cry is "Send a maniac to catch one!".

It's pretty spot on, but I saw it more of a great theme to play a DP Blaster than anything else.  It's not the most original thing I have ever done, but it sure is fun! 

Do you think Sly's production company will come after me? 😉

[AkuTenshiiZero]

There is something incredibly depressing about seeing a system with such limitless potential as the CoX costume creator being used to create MCU characters.  It just kills my soul to see this, coming from Virtue and seeing the endless creativity of the community back then, that once the trademark rule is gone so many people default to being so basic.  I mean, did anyone even play Illusions before Far From Home came out, now we have a ton of Mysterio knockoffs?

 

It's OK to homage.  It's OK to be inspired.  But if you're just going to make the same character from Marvel, then why not play a Marvel game?

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to find a suitable urn for my ashes once y'all get through with me.

[Unruly]

The terms of service of the original game were written as they were to stop lawsuits from comics companies.  The last thing you want to do is give those guys reason to dislike you.  They are huge companies and protect their territories like mad.

[PaxArcana]

1 minute ago, Unruly said:

The terms of service of the original game were written as they were to stop lawsuits from comics companies.  The last thing you want to do is give those guys reason to dislike you.  They are huge companies and protect their territories like mad.

... one almost might say, "like a pack of rabid honey-badgers" ...!  😄 😄

 

21 minutes ago, GM Fiddleback said:

Totally reasonable and I'd be interested in seeing it.

I don't usually do Melee anymore, but ... oh hell, why not?  🙂

[GM Fiddleback]

13 minutes ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

>---snip---<

I mean, did anyone even play Illusions before Far From Home came out, now we have a ton of Mysterio knockoffs?

>---snip---<

My brother played an illusionist exclusively. On live.

 

Caught hell for it too every time he teamed up with anyone because "Ew! Illusion?! No pets! No pets!"

 

So, I dunno. I'm not sure that's your best argument for 'no illusionists until...'

 

Still, personally I prefer some measure of originality over just copying. But again, that's okay. People have fun in their own ways. What works for me doesn't work for other folks. It's cool! Just, y'know, play the game...

[krj12]

I have no idea why a superhero MMO would police this any more stringently than any other MMO.

 

For example:  In Neverwinter, you see tons of Drizzt Do'Urdens,  Bruenor Battlehammers,  and many other fairly well known fantasy characters.

I've never seen them taken down for violating copyright.

 

 

[Sunsette]

11 minutes ago, krj12 said:

I have no idea why a superhero MMO would police this any more stringently than any other MMO.

 

For example:  In Neverwinter, you see tons of Drizzt Do'Urdens,  Bruenor Battlehammers,  and many other fairly well known fantasy characters.

I've never seen them taken down for violating copyright.

 

 

Part of this is a general shift in how companies have approached MMO character creation. In the first modern generation MMOs like AC and EQ, it was anything goes. Second generation, like WoW and CoX, came under heavy threat of litigation from trademark holders and consequently had pretty heavy naming policies at first. Eventually, around 9 or 10 years ago I'd guess, there was a hard drop off in litigation threats on this point and naming policies became more relaxed again. I'm not sure if the drop was due to weakness of case, PR reasons, or some mixture. 

[PaxArcana]

14 minutes ago, krj12 said:

I have no idea why a superhero MMO would police this any more stringently than any other MMO.

Because Marvel Comics actually sued NCSoft and Cryptic for exactly that.
 

15 minutes ago, krj12 said:

In Neverwinter, you see tons of Drizzt Do'Urdens,  Bruenor Battlehammers,  and many other fairly well known fantasy characters.

 

Drizzt and Bruenor are actually part of the same IP ("The Forgotten Realms" setting) as Neverwinter.