Remembered one of the things I hate about CoH... its RNG.

[TimesSeven]

7 minutes ago, Blastit said:

There actually is a mechanic to increase your chance to land attacks when you're a lowbie. Sure, since there have been so many patches you can always check if it's working properly (not impossible that something went wrong) but until someone does an actual investigation I'm not going to pay much mind to complaints about missing.

Beginners Luck is exactly what you said, a tohit game mechanic (thank you BTW). The link provides a full description and a table. 
 

One problem... it was implemented in issue 12--that came out in 2008.  Why are we still experiencing these issues? Perhaps it needs to be tweaked? With all of the patches and updates, how can we even check that it's still working?

 

Not being snarky this time, was wondering if you had an answer to this?

[Frostbiter]

It's all still there and working. I think a lot of work has been done to alleviate some of the issues with the Enhancement changes in the current Beta. Namely, DO's and SO's will be available to low levels both as drops and from vendors, making low level slotting viable. TO's will be a thing of the useless past.

[Blastit]

14 minutes ago, TimesSeven said:

Beginners Luck is exactly what you said, a tohit game mechanic (thank you BTW). The link provides a full description and a table. 
 

One problem... it was implemented in issue 12--that came out in 2008.  Why are we still experiencing these issues? Perhaps it needs to be tweaked? With all of the patches and updates, how can we even check that it's still working?

 

Not being snarky this time, was wondering if you had an answer to this?

I'm just some nobody and have no access to internal data tracking tools so I don't know anything about if it really super-truly works exactly as advertised after all these patches but until there's a conclusive investigation I'm going to work under the assumption that it's a classic case of some people getting really annoyed at missing.

 

They even added an accuracy buff you can pick after running Death From Below, which stacks with everything else. Another thing people who really don't want to miss can do is slot two accuracy DOs until they get access to SOs. Nowadays, people can just blast past the teens and buy IOs once they get to 22 so if you really, really want to minimise the time spent at lower accuracy levels you can do that.

 

24 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

I think a lot of the trouble people have at low levels is that Brawl and the Origin Attacks completely screw up the Streakbreaker. You'll miss less often if you don't use them.

How so? Interesting.

[Frostbiter]

9 minutes ago, Blastit said:

I'm just some nobody and have no access to internal data tracking tools so I don't know anything about if it really super-truly works exactly as advertised after all these patches but until there's a conclusive investigation I'm going to work under the assumption that it's a classic case of some people getting really annoyed at missing.

 

They even added an accuracy buff you can pick after running Death From Below, which stacks with everything else. Another thing people who really don't want to miss can do is slot two accuracy DOs until they get access to SOs. Nowadays, people can just blast past the teens and buy IOs once they get to 22 so if you really, really want to minimise the time spent at lower accuracy levels you can do that.

 

How so? Interesting.

The Streakbreaker keeps track of the accuracy rating of the powers you use and uses that to calculate the number of misses it will allow before it forces a hit. So if you use a low accuracy attack in your attack chain it shifts you to a lower bracket where it helps you less. Brawl and the Origin temp powers all have lower accuracy ratings than regular powers.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Blastit]

Aha, that makes sense. Thank you.

[TimesSeven]

Yeah, the problem with DFB is that you can't solo it at low levels and if you run Redside (like I predominately do), you can't get a team together. And it's impossible to run if you start in Praetoria.  
 

just griping, but it's really been causing me stress because I want to know that if I kill Reese, will he still appear in the "Praetoria's Last Gasp" story arc!  I'm dying here... literally. 

[TimesSeven]

Okay, my last bitch session... here's the part that I hate the most -- missing doors, trucks, dumpsters or any other LARGE, IMMOVABLE object when you are standing right in front of it. The RNG should be turned off if you are in prisons or CoT cages.  Missing a few times in a row absolutely sucks when you are standing directly in front of a door. 
 

I think we can all agree with that. 😜

[Doomguide2005]

17 hours ago, TimesSeven said:

Okay, my last bitch session... here's the part that I hate the most -- missing doors, trucks, dumpsters or any other LARGE, IMMOVABLE object when you are standing right in front of it. The RNG should be turned off if you are in prisons or CoT cages.  Missing a few times in a row absolutely sucks when you are standing directly in front of a door. 
 

I think we can all agree with that. 😜

I'd add "not fighting back" to the large immobile adjectives.  While my brain might rationalize "missing" as ineffectual blow, distracted by mobs beyond (even if the player knows, does the character know questions), etc., it does have trouble missing as often as 1 in 20 times under a lot of those circumstances.  That said it's a long, long way from being a hill I'm willing to die on.

[TimesSeven]

On 11/2/2020 at 1:05 PM, Frostbiter said:

The Streakbreaker keeps track of the accuracy rating of the powers you use and uses that to calculate the number of misses it will allow before it forces a hit. So if you use a low accuracy attack in your attack chain it shifts you to a lower bracket where it helps you less. Brawl and the Origin temp powers all have lower accuracy ratings than regular powers.

 So what makes this a terrible thing is that when you're just starting out, you don't have a lot of attacks or slots, so a lowbie character is probably slotting accuracy and damage in those few attacks--not recharge. A lowbie toon RELIES on Nemesis staff, Blackwand,  brawl and Sands of Mu as an additional attack. Hell, I know level 50's that still use those items! And since them automatically throws you in a lower accuracy bracket, what does it do for the +tohit that Beginner's Luck offers? If those objects negates BL then it's all a wash. 
 

That could be a reason why everyone is missing so much in lower levels. And poor controllers and MM's RELY on those abilities since they have so few attacks, as per their designs. 

See, this is what I'm talking about--this is the difference between using a product and testing a product. As someone who has been in software for twenty years, these are the things you need to consider when deducing playability. Instead of just saying, "so you miss a few, deal with it" INVESTIGATE the issue and find out if it's an actually problem or not. 

 

Can anyone even confirm is Beginner's Luck is actually working now?

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by TimesSeven

[FoxyPrime]

After all the toons I've pushed through early game hell, I've lost many a fight I could have won simply because I missed every other attack or more, with early game enhancements and inspirations doing nothing to help, that I feel safe in saying that it is not simple bad luck streaks. I actually make it a point to use the P2W vendor to turn off inspiration drops like +accuracy because I find them so useless they're just wasting space and I'd rather get defense or a heal.

 

Yes, I've heard people quote the definition of probability at me about RNG all the time for years across all kinds of games and it has changed nothing precisely because it's not addressing the actual problem, it's just deflecting the conversation. That problem in CoX being: early game hell is already slow and tedious and it's become worse when you're forced to restart or back out of content because the RNG arbitrarily won't let you through. It is a waste of the player's time.

 

I think the early game missing should be reduced and early game enhancements to accuracy should be buffed (or eliminated entirely if they're never going to actually help). Say all you want about "realism" or "challenge", but at the end of the day, it's still just arbitrarily wasting our time and for what? A little bit of flavor that's been old news for well over a decade at least? All those goes away at higher levels, so why must early on be such a pain in the neck? 

 

 

[Blastit]

49 minutes ago, TimesSeven said:

 So what makes this a terrible thing is that when you're just starting out, you don't have a lot of attacks or slots, so a lowbie character is probably slotting accuracy and damage in those few attacks--not recharge. A lowbie toon RELIES on Nemesis staff, Blackwand, taser, throwing knives and brawl as an additional attack. Since this automatically throws you in a lower accuracy bracket, what does it do for the +tohit that Beginner's Luck offers? If those objects negates BL then it's all a wash.

 

The streakbreaker exists to stop you from missing lots in a row. But the lower the accuracy of the attacks you use is, the greater the number of misses in a row that is acceptable. So even if your power-set attacks are at 90%+, the streakbreaker sees you use the 70% (or whatever) bonus attack and adjusts accordingly.

[TimesSeven]

51 minutes ago, Blastit said:

 

The streakbreaker exists to stop you from missing lots in a row. But the lower the accuracy of the attacks you use is, the greater the number of misses in a row that is acceptable. So even if your power-set attacks are at 90%+, the streakbreaker sees you use the 70% (or whatever) bonus attack and adjusts accordingly.

I understand that, but if you miss four shots in a row, and then streakbreaker gives you one, and then you miss another four shots in a row, then you're dead. Faceplanted. Streakbreaker helped you ONCE. if you check the streakbreaker tables, it will let you miss up to EIGHT attacks in a row. Now if you're a lowbie who is relying on Sands of Mu and the Nemesis Staff as your only real means of attack, how fun will the game be? 

[Twisted Toon]

23 hours ago, TimesSeven said:

Okay, my last bitch session... here's the part that I hate the most -- missing doors, trucks, dumpsters or any other LARGE, IMMOVABLE object when you are standing right in front of it. The RNG should be turned off if you are in prisons or CoT cages.  Missing a few times in a row absolutely sucks when you are standing directly in front of a door. 
 

I think we can all agree with that. 😜

You could see it as, you missed hitting the door squarely enough to actually do damage to it. In other words, struck it a glancing blow.

Even professional carpenters might miss hitting the nail solidly on the head.

[TimesSeven]

1 minute ago, Twisted Toon said:

You could see it as, you missed hitting the door squarely enough to actually do damage to it. In other words, struck it a glancing blow.

Even professional carpenters might miss hitting the nail solidly on the head.

That is the most optimistic outlook you could possibly have, but let's be HONEST here--they were lazy and didn't program it like that. I see where you're coming from but in REALITY, you're missing the door completely. 

[TimesSeven]

1 hour ago, FoxyPrime said:

After all the toons I've pushed through early game hell, I've lost many a fight I could have won simply because I missed every other attack or more, with early game enhancements and inspirations doing nothing to help, that I feel safe in saying that it is not simple bad luck streaks. I actually make it a point to use the P2W vendor to turn off inspiration drops like +accuracy because I find them so useless they're just wasting space and I'd rather get defense or a heal.

 

Yes, I've heard people quote the definition of probability at me about RNG all the time for years across all kinds of games and it has changed nothing precisely because it's not addressing the actual problem, it's just deflecting the conversation. That problem in CoX being: early game hell is already slow and tedious and it's become worse when you're forced to restart or back out of content because the RNG arbitrarily won't let you through. It is a waste of the player's time.

 

I think the early game missing should be reduced and early game enhancements to accuracy should be buffed (or eliminated entirely if they're never going to actually help). Say all you want about "realism" or "challenge", but at the end of the day, it's still just arbitrarily wasting our time and for what? A little bit of flavor that's been old news for well over a decade at least? All those goes away at higher levels, so why must early on be such a pain in the neck? 

 

 

2000% AGREE!

[Twisted Toon]

6 minutes ago, TimesSeven said:

That is the most optimistic outlook you could possibly have, but let's be HONEST here--they were lazy and didn't program it like that. I see where you're coming from but in REALITY, you're missing the door completely. 

Maybe the door has phasing technology built in that causes damage to pass into a different dimension.

Only it can't be active all the time, so pulses, and you manage to "hit" it during one of the times it is, ever so briefly, phase shifted and don't do any damage to it.

 

Personally, I haven't really noticed when I miss while attacking a door.

I have, on the other hand, noticed when my Cone attack misses 13 people in a tight group and only hits 1...usually way in the back of the group.

[jubakumbi]

The earlier access to SOs may help a bit...obviously not so much for Sand of Mu and such...just a passing thought.

[TimesSeven]

5 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I'd add "not fighting back" to the large immobile adjectives.  While my brain might rationalize "missing" as ineffectual blow, distracted by mobs beyond (even if the player knows, does the character know questions), etc., it does have trouble missing as often as 1 in 20 times under a lot of those circumstances.  That said it's a long, long way from being a hill I'm willing to die on.

Absolutely agree though I cringe at the word, "rationalize."

[Blastit]

28 minutes ago, TimesSeven said:

I understand that, but if you miss four shots in a row, and then streakbreaker gives you one, and then you miss another four shots in a row, then you're dead. Faceplanted. Streakbreaker helped you ONCE. if you check the streakbreaker tables, it will let you miss up to EIGHT attacks in a row. Now if you're a lowbie who is relying on Sands of Mu and the Nemesis Staff as your only real means of attack, how fun will the game be? 

If you faceplant because your only attacks are P2W powers then you have chosen a build that can't solo but are doing it anyway. I've made plenty of lowbie characters and even controllers don't have it so rough they can't get past level 10. You would simply have to be very unlucky to constantly miss the maximally allowed amount of times.

[TimesSeven]

9 minutes ago, Blastit said:

If you faceplant because your only attacks are P2W powers then you have chosen a build that can't solo but are doing it anyway. I've made plenty of lowbie characters and even controllers don't have it so rough they can't get past level 10. You would simply have to be very unlucky to constantly miss the maximally allowed amount of times.

I can agree with some of those points, but what are you supposed to do if you want to play that build Redside or Yellowside where it's darn hard to find a team? Now this is just rationalizing, because this is an easy fix: don't put the P2W attacks in the lower accuracy bracket. Done. Fixed. Everyone's happy. You don't need to mess with ANYTHING else. So instead of saying, "you shouldn't make that build if you aren't going to be teaming much" (like we USED to say to Defenders), just fix the issue.  I mean, technically, you could say the same thing to blasters. 
 

And yeah, most controllers have it rough early on because they don't get pets until late in the game and the majority of group holds have long recharge times and Immobs don't stop attacks. I'd be real curious to know what controllers you're playing that allow you to solo early in the game without issues. 
 

I guess that I am like the majority of the other posters--very unlucky. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by TimesSeven

[Luminara]

Too much hyperbole going on here.

 

The streak breaker limits how many times you miss based on your total calculated hit chance.  That hit chance is a combination of the base power hit chance, the critter's level in comparison to yours, any ToHit bonuses you might have active, any Defense bonuses your target might have active, any -Defense applied to your target, any Accuracy bonuses you might have active, and any ToHit debuffs which might currently be active on you.  It's not as complicated as it seems, it's just numbers.

 

Additionally, the Beginner's Luck buff applied to all characters adds a ToHit bonus as a global effect.  It affects the character's set attacks.  It affects temporary powers.  It affects Brawl.  It affects anything and everything the player can use from primary, secondary, pool or temporary powers.  That ToHit bonus is largest at level 1 and scales downward until level 20, at which point it is removed.  Beginner's Luck was added to the game specifically to counter the problems of too few powers, which forced players to rely on temporary or origin powers to fill gaps, and inability to slot sufficient Accuracy or acquire enough ToHit to make attacks reliable.  You don't miss 4 times in a row at level 1.  Or at level 5.  Or at level 20, when the buff is removed, unless you're fighting something which alters your hit chance (critter with +Def or -ToHit, or critters above your level, for example).  The base hit chance for most powers is 75%.  Some powers have a 67% hit chance, some have base 90% hit chance, but almost nothing available to players has a hit chance lower than 60%, and anything above 59.99% is guaranteed to hit by the fourth attempt, because the streak breaker forces a hit after 3 misses for any series of attacks with at least a 60% chance to hit on each attack.

 

The only exception to the streak breaker rule comes into play when mixing single-target and AoE attacks.  Using a single-target attack, followed by a cone, AoE or PBAoE, followed by another single-target attack.  In this sequence, a specific critter targeted by the single-target attack can be missed, then the cone, AoE or PBAoE can miss, and the following single-target attack can also miss.  This is because the streak breaker doesn't check the target, it simply checks the previous hit roll, and AoEs don't treat any one target with priority.  The fact that you may be targeting a specific critter with both the single-target and AoE attacks isn't something the streak breaker is coded to recognize.  Due to that, it's possible to miss more than once even when your hit checks are clamped at 95%.

 

Outside of that edge case, there are no miss streaks outside of what's allowed by the streak breaker, and between Beginner's Luck at lower levels and proper slotting for or usage of +Accuracy or +ToHit, players are already extremely well empowered to avoid miss streaks.  If you are missing four times in a row, stop trying to fight enemies above your level, or trying to fight enemies with +Def or -ToHit.  Or use Tactics from the Leadership pool.  Or slot a Kismet unique (it gives a global 6% ToHit buff to your character).  Or slot Accuracy in your powers.  Or team up with someone who applies -Def or +ToHit.  Or use IO set bonuses to increase your global Accuracy (global meaning it applies to all powers you use, including temp and origin powers).

 

Hit rolls are not borked.  The streak breaker is not broken.  Lowbies are not penalized.  The hit check system is not deliberately fucking with anyone (except me, because i make it do that by mixing single-target and AoE).  And no, Accuracy was not nerfed (nor was ToHit).

[TimesSeven]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Too much hyperbole going on here.

 

The streak breaker limits how many times you miss based on your total calculated hit chance.  That hit chance is a combination of the base power hit chance, the critter's level in comparison to yours, any ToHit bonuses you might have active, any Defense bonuses your target might have active, any -Defense applied to your target, any Accuracy bonuses you might have active, and any ToHit debuffs which might currently be active on you.  It's not as complicated as it seems, it's just numbers.

 

Additionally, the Beginner's Luck buff applied to all characters adds a ToHit bonus as a global effect.  It affects the character's set attacks.  It affects temporary powers.  It affects Brawl.  It affects anything and everything the player can use from primary, secondary, pool or temporary powers.  That ToHit bonus is largest at level 1 and scales downward until level 20, at which point it is removed.  Beginner's Luck was added to the game specifically to counter the problems of too few powers, which forced players to rely on temporary or origin powers to fill gaps, and inability to slot sufficient Accuracy or acquire enough ToHit to make attacks reliable.  You don't miss 4 times in a row at level 1.  Or at level 5.  Or at level 20, when the buff is removed, unless you're fighting something which alters your hit chance (critter with +Def or -ToHit, or critters above your level, for example).  The base hit chance for most powers is 75%.  Some powers have a 67% hit chance, some have base 90% hit chance, but almost nothing available to players has a hit chance lower than 60%, and anything above 59.99% is guaranteed to hit by the fourth attempt, because the streak breaker forces a hit after 3 misses for any series of attacks with at least a 60% chance to hit on each attack.

 

The only exception to the streak breaker rule comes into play when mixing single-target and AoE attacks.  Using a single-target attack, followed by a cone, AoE or PBAoE, followed by another single-target attack.  In this sequence, a specific critter targeted by the single-target attack can be missed, then the cone, AoE or PBAoE can miss, and the following single-target attack can also miss.  This is because the streak breaker doesn't check the target, it simply checks the previous hit roll, and AoEs don't treat any one target with priority.  The fact that you may be targeting a specific critter with both the single-target and AoE attacks isn't something the streak breaker is coded to recognize.  Due to that, it's possible to miss more than once even when your hit checks are clamped at 95%.

 

Outside of that edge case, there are no miss streaks outside of what's allowed by the streak breaker, and between Beginner's Luck at lower levels and proper slotting for or usage of +Accuracy or +ToHit, players are already extremely well empowered to avoid miss streaks.  If you are missing four times in a row, stop trying to fight enemies above your level, or trying to fight enemies with +Def or -ToHit.  Or use Tactics from the Leadership pool.  Or slot a Kismet unique (it gives a global 6% ToHit buff to your character).  Or slot Accuracy in your powers.  Or team up with someone who applies -Def or +ToHit.  Or use IO set bonuses to increase your global Accuracy (global meaning it applies to all powers you use, including temp and origin powers).

 

Hit rolls are not borked.  The streak breaker is not broken.  Lowbies are not penalized.  The hit check system is not deliberately fucking with anyone (except me, because i make it do that by mixing single-target and AoE).  And no, Accuracy was not nerfed (nor was ToHit).

Are you a dev?

[jubakumbi]

6 minutes ago, TimesSeven said:

Are you a dev?

@Luminara has studied the game in depth for more person-hours than most anyone, I think.

Many of the CoH community base thier POV on the math work @Luminara did years ago.

I would trust what they say about how things work more than just about anything other than the actual code. 🙂 

[TimesSeven]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

@Luminara has studied the game in depth for more person-hours than most anyone, I think.

Many of the CoH community base thier POV on the math work @Luminara did years ago.

I would trust what they say about how things work more than just about anything other than the actual code. 🙂 

Oh okay. Thanks

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

@Luminara has studied the game in depth for more person-hours than most anyone, I think.

Many of the CoH community base thier POV on the math work @Luminara did years ago.

I would trust what they say about how things work more than just about anything other than the actual code. 🙂 

 

@arcanaville was the real hero.  She's the one who laid down most of the math we use.  I learned from her work, and her example, and focused on mechanics.