Make the early game fun: Remove TOs/DOs.

[kenlon]

This is a pipe dream, but:

 

The biggest problem with the early game in CoH, and the biggest reason that people want to powerlevel past it as fast as possible, is that playing before you get SO level bonuses *sucks balls*. (Yes, I know that most people are using IOs, not SOs, but the principle applies. Having a limited selection of powers and a small number of slots in them is limiting enough, without having enhancements that do almost nothing for you. If we could slot in SOs right from the start, then doing mission arcs or radio missions would actually be a fun alternative to running DFB over and over again to get to 22.

 

Thoughts?

[ShardWarrior]

Can't say I disagree, although I do find the early game fun in some aspects.  Personally, I don't believe I have ever slotted a TO enhancement ever and they don't sell for anything so eliminating them is not such a far off idea.  Especially since we can run DFB or DiB or Summer BB now and collect random SOs to use or sell.  Kind of makes DOs/TOs irrelevant.

Edited August 7, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[Bionic_Flea]

I'm not sure what eliminating them would do to help or what problem there is in their existence.  I slot a few that drop and sell the rest.  Before I know it, I am in my 20s and slotting SOs that drop and attuned IO sets.

 

Removing them from the game as it exists now could lead to unexpected coding errors as this game's code is spaghetti on a stack of playing cards on a Jenga tower.  The smallest thing can make it all go BOOM.

 

Now, once they've tamed the beast and re-coded (if that's still a goal) then sure, eliminate them to save space in vendor and /AH user interfaces and make it easier on everyone to remember what to slot.

[_NOPE_]

<----snip---->

Edited August 7, 2019 by GM Fiddleback
Less troll, more substance please.

[Yoru-hime]

55 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Removing them from the game as it exists now could lead to unexpected coding errors as this game's code is spaghetti on a stack of playing cards on a Jenga tower.  The smallest thing can make it all go BOOM.

 

Now, once they've tamed the beast and re-coded (if that's still a goal) then sure, eliminate them to save space in vendor and /AH user interfaces and make it easier on everyone to remember what to slot.

I'm going to disagree with this sentiment. By this reasoning, the HC devs shouldn't be changing anything at all, ever, because after all, "the smallest thing can make it all go BOOM". If they've said something specific about enhancements being a difficult think to tweak, then that's one thing, but a blanket statement like this doesn't really work. The HC devs can change things, they have changed things, they are still changing things, and we're doing OK.

 

If something is too complex or risky to implement for reasons we can't see, I trust the coders to just not do it. That doesn't mean we can't make suggestions and discuss their potential merit. That's why this sub-forum is here.

 

My impulse is that this is over the top, but given the way that lowbie SOs are handed out like candy in DFB, I'm not sure it's as over the top as it seems. I definitely felt the difference in power between the character that I ran a DFB with and the ones I didn't for those several levels when I could use those SOs. As far as I know, no one is snarking about those being an "I Win" button.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Yoru-hime
Toning down language.

[AkuTenshiiZero]

DO's are fine.  Progression is good.

 

TO's, on the other hand, absolutely do not need to exist.  They are only relevant for the first 12 levels and, let's be honest here, even we who play the slow game usually get to that point in a short session.  They don't need to exist because they practically don't exist already.  They are a relic, just replace them with DO's and nobody would know the difference.

[Yoru-hime]

11 minutes ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

DO's are fine.  Progression is good.

 

TO's, on the other hand, absolutely do not need to exist.  They are only relevant for the first 12 levels and, let's be honest here, even we who play the slow game usually get to that point in a short session.  They don't need to exist because they practically don't exist already.  They are a relic, just replace them with DO's and nobody would know the difference.

How about we boost TOs to DO level and remove DOs?

 

Have SOs start dropping sometime between when DOs would have before and when SOs show up now.

TOs are still training wheel enhancements that don't care about origin.

I'd also make it so any mission reward enhancement is always an SO, so running lowbie missions seems a little bit less like "the slow and painful way to start the game".

Edited August 7, 2019 by Yoru-hime

[biostem]

There's the beginner's luck bonus that helps in the early levels, and most enemies in that range are rather easy.  Yes, you don't have a lot of powers to pick from, but that's alleviated by the P2W vendor's "prestige powers" and XP boosters.  Yes, for an experienced player, those early levels can be tedious, but there are ways to speed past them.  There are also powers to boost your tohit or power sets that have inherently higher base accuracy.  Personally, I don't even bother slotting TOs, since you spend relatively little time in the pre-DO range.

[_NOPE_]

This seems like a solution looking for a problem to me. You don't like TOs? Then ignore them, you have that power. Especially with our enhancement trays being 8 times bigger than it was before with the multiple tabs... I just don't see the issue with TOs existing. You either use them, or you don't. As others have mentioned, with XP boosters and P2W prestige enhancements available from level 1 and DFB being a thing... it's not like they're really relevant anyways. To remove them would take effort, and is it worth the limited Dev time for that?

 

That being said, if you want to apply to make code changes and do the work yourself and submit the work to save them the effort, well there's a pathway for that:

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/forum/50-developers-corner/

 

 

[tatmia]

16 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

 

That being said, if you want to apply to make code changes and do the work yourself and submit the work to save them the effort, well there's a pathway for that:

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/forum/50-developers-corner/

 

 

This is a pretty hostile reply to a suggestion.    It’s one thing to disagree, another for you to respond like this.  

[_NOPE_]

I don't think so. I've applied myself because there's changes that I want to see.

[ShardWarrior]

25 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

This seems like a solution looking for a problem to me. You don't like TOs? Then ignore them, you have that power. Especially with our enhancement trays being 8 times bigger than it was before with the multiple tabs... I just don't see the issue with TOs existing. You either use them, or you don't. As others have mentioned, with XP boosters and P2W prestige enhancements available from level 1 and DFB being a thing... it's not like they're really relevant anyways. To remove them would take effort, and is it worth the limited Dev time for that?

 

That being said, if you want to apply to make code changes and do the work yourself and submit the work to save them the effort, well there's a pathway for that: 

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/forum/50-developers-corner/

 

 

Personally, I think any effort going into something that will replace/make better an aspect of the game that is (which you even admit TOs are)  irrelevant better is worth "limited Dev time".

[Auroxis]

I think there's merit behind the suggestion. The level up process is faster than ever before, but until 22/27 where attuned IO's become a thing you're wasting time by fiddling with TO's and DO's.

 

I don't think they should be removed, but how about making them attuned?

Edited August 7, 2019 by Auroxis

[justicebeliever]

While I do think PK's answer was a touch over the top (we aren't all qualified to be game developers or even help with game development, but we are all qualified to make suggestions)...I do agree with him.

 

No one is doing DFB over other content because of the TO's...It's all about the XP...And you don't even get TO's in DFB, so it's unclear to me what we are solving for here?

 

For the rest of us who do work through the content, there are already other tweaks to help balance out the early levels, like no debt, beginner's luck, etc...I don't feel like SO's are needed that early, and besides the few people who it would really help (the true beginners) would NEVER be able to afford them at the early levels (even scaled down), so what's the point?

Edited August 7, 2019 by justicebeliever

[justicebeliever]

43 minutes ago, Yoru-hime said:

I'd also make it so any mission reward enhancement is always an SO, so running lowbie missions seems a little bit less like "the slow and painful way to start the game".

I'd like this suggestion...

[AkuTenshiiZero]

9 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

I don't think so. I've applied myself because there's changes that I want to see.

It was pretty hostile.  Nobody likes the "You're not a dev, stop whining" retort.  It is never a good thing to do.

 

I don't think anyone here realistically expects changes, but throwing around half-baked content and feature ideas is a time-honored MMO tradition.

[ShardWarrior]

Not sure not being able to afford SOs at early levels is an issue per se - DFB, DiB etc. drop several SOs with every run which can either be slotted or sold, not to mention salvage. 

[justicebeliever]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Not sure not being able to afford SOs at early levels is an issue per se - DFB, DiB etc. drop several SOs with every run which can either be slotted or sold, not to mention salvage. 

Right, but if you are playing DFB/DiB alot in the early levels, you are already only getting SO's and thus no change is needed...why fix something that already behaves the way you wish it to?

 

If you are not playing DFB, then there is no way in hell you can afford SO's unless you are already passing millions onto your toon in the first place, and then in that case, why not just give yourself IO's at lvl 7?

[kenlon]

27 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

No one is doing DFB over other content because of the TO's...It's all about the XP...And you don't even get TO's in DFB, so it's unclear to me what we are solving for here?

 

One of the big reasons why DFB is the only sane way to level early on is that it keeps you at levels 1-4, meaning that the fact that you have no enhancements doesn't matter. If you go out and do mission arcs, the fact that your powers are way below what they, sanely, should be (SO level enhancements), makes it painful.

 

I've been playing in a duo with my wife - no XP boosters, no DFB, basically recapturing what we did way back when the game was first live - and it makes it abundantly clear just how badly balanced the game is before you hit 22. Even getting DOs in only helped a little. And as far as actually getting low level SOs, assuming you just replace the drop table spots for TOs/DOs with their SO equivalents, then you can get the SOs from doing missions, or from the AH from other people who are doing low level content. 

 

I mean, sure, doing DFB will still be better XP per time spent, but having access to actually decent enhancements would make *not* doing DFB far less painful. And that would be a good thing, I think.

[_NOPE_]

32 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

While I do think PK's answer was a touch over the top (we aren't all qualified to be game developers or even help with game development, but we are all qualified to make suggestions)

[ShardWarrior]

Actually, I know quite a few people who play the game in the "normal way" by playing all the early content, but will hit up a DFB/DiB every so often for the SO and salvage drops to sell.

 

TOs were something of some use back in the day - the game is a lot different now.  I would agree removing them just for the sake of removing them is a lot of work for no real return.  However, I think the idea of replacing TOs with something better/more unique is worth discussion.

[justicebeliever]

1 minute ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Sure....I'm not 100% that's sure...but in my case, I'm sure I could code...but how much would I have to learn to 

a.) Code at all

b.) Code in a language friendly to CoH

c.) Understand how CoH is built, in order to know how to code CoH

d.) Do it well enough that I am a help, not a hindrance to a team of experienced developers...

 

It's a nice platitude, but it's not reality

[kenlon]

13 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 TOs were something of some use back in the day - the game is a lot different now.  I would agree removing them just for the sake of removing them is a lot of work for no real return.  However, I think the idea of replacing TOs with something better/more unique is worth discussion.

 

You wouldn't be removing them just to remove them, though - you'd be removing them and having SOs drop in their place. 

[justicebeliever]

I play the game the "old-fashioned way" (DFB is just as normal as doing content...it's just different).  I like the early missions, I create new characters all the time and seldom run DFB...

From an ease of play in the lower levels, I understand how making the Enhancements more powerful would make the game easier...While that's not my cup of tea personally, I have no beef with that, since I could just not slot the enhancements if I didn't want them.

 

But SO's prices are scaled by lvl, and if you scaled them down to the early lvls 1-20, they would be unaffordable to any player going up the normal way compared to TO's and DO's.  

• You could just lower the prices for them, but that would create a gigantic cliff, price wise when you hit lvl 22...unless we are lowering the prices of all SO's across the board, which just became a much different ask
• You could just keep the TO's, but scale them up to look more like SO's, but that devalues the SO's quite a bit, and essentially you've still done the same thing as the prior bullet

I know an argument will be, "well I can always pay for them because I get Inf from playing the market or one of my alts", and my answer would be - then you can already do this, since SO's are already on sale from DFB on the market, and at lvl 7, if you have a ton of cash, you should be slotting IO's...

 

Speaking of IO's...IO's run a curve, where at the lower levels they are just about the same as a TO, the mid levels, the same as a DO, and lvl 25+ the same as a SO (roughly).  So tweaking the scale of TO/DO's would mean tweak IO's as well...

 

I am all in favor of more SO reward drops (for completing early story arcs), and we could even expand that to having more DO drops in the earliest levels for completing missions (of any kind)...

Edited August 7, 2019 by justicebeliever

[Obsidius]

28 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

I can code. But I don't have time to do that. Because I'm cooking. For my family. 🤷‍♂️