Make the early game fun: Remove TOs/DOs.

[n00baka]

2 hours ago, DSorrow said:

TOs:

• enhancement values bumped to current even DO level
• "attuned", stay gray until lvl 12, turn red at lvl 15

DOs:

• enhancement values bumped to current -3 SO level
• "attuned", gray until 22, turn red at 25

Basically you'd only need to slot either once in the 10 level range they're applicable in, they'd give a meaningful bonus and from 22 SOs would still be better than either. Additionally, because they'd turn red they wouldn't completely invalidate low level IOs.

This right here would get me to slot TOs and DOs. Not bumping the value, exactly, but having them be conditionally "attuned" for a certain amount of time. Right now, I out level TOs easily enough that I don't ever bother slotting any of them. DOs are very close to being not worth the effort, but having their effectiveness last for more levels would absolutely encourage me to use them until I break into IOs.

 

Currently I refuse to slot anything until 22, so I can slot lvl 25 IOs. I've forsaken TOs, DOs, and SOs because of the replenishment requirement. The 'Death from Below' and 'Drowning in Blood' trials allow me to not worry as much about slotting TOs and DOs because of their Temp Powers, and by the time those wear off, I can craft and slot the basic IOs I need (acc and end red, usually).

[wjrasmussen]

On 8/7/2019 at 11:16 AM, kenlon said:

This is a pipe dream, but:

 

The biggest problem with the early game in CoH, and the biggest reason that people want to powerlevel past it as fast as possible, is that playing before you get SO level bonuses *sucks balls*. (Yes, I know that most people are using IOs, not SOs, but the principle applies. Having a limited selection of powers and a small number of slots in them is limiting enough, without having enhancements that do almost nothing for you. If we could slot in SOs right from the start, then doing mission arcs or radio missions would actually be a fun alternative to running DFB over and over again to get to 22.

 

Thoughts?

You are not forced to use them if that would make it more fun.

[justicebeliever]

10 hours ago, DSorrow said:

This right here. I don't think the lower level content is challenging because we lack proper enhancements, I think it's irritating because I miss 20% of the time instead of 5% and constantly run out of endurance even though I'm not able to use a full attack chain. The lack of enhancement slots and powers would still make a lvl 1 significantly weaker than a lvl 50, but at least I would have other avenues past the annoyances of low levels besides blazing through it.

 

Like others have said about TOs and DOs (especially the former), the bonuses are so weak it doesn't feel meaningful to spend the time to slot them. Maybe we could do something like this to TOs and DOs:

 

TOs:

• enhancement values bumped to current even DO level
• "attuned", stay gray until lvl 12, turn red at lvl 15

DOs:

• enhancement values bumped to current -3 SO level
• "attuned", gray until 22, turn red at 25

Basically you'd only need to slot either once in the 10 level range they're applicable in, they'd give a meaningful bonus and from 22 SOs would still be better than either. Additionally, because they'd turn red they wouldn't completely invalidate low level IOs.

In general, this idea seems to be moving in the right direction, but it's a pretty major change to only part of the enhancement system.  If the change is this big, it needs to address the entire enhancement system, or the next thread after this gets implement is "Why don't SO's attune like DO's?"  And people would be right...And if you change SO's to be attuned, then the next thread is "Why are Common IO's worthless?" because they would be then...So this solution just kicks the can a little bit and makes a holistic solution harder and harder.

 

And if we completely overhaul how enhancements work (I'm somewhat of a traditionalist, so my personal preference is no, but regardless), then we need to keep in mind how the enhancements progress throughout the game, so it doesn't become "just get your enhancements at lvl 1 and they are attuned the whole game and there is no reason to ever replace them".  I still think having game mechanics here matters

 

A compromise, as a interim solution, but one that's not as drastic could be - 

Common/Set IO's - No Change

 

Single Origin:

• Boost values by 20% - Most types would be 46% boosted as opposed to 38% (at max level), and Defense would be 27% boosted instead of 23% (at 3 lvls plus)...Common IO's cap at 42.4% and 25.5% respectively, so SO's have real value again, and while not attuned, they might be worth the Inf sink to be more powerful, especially at those grinding 30-40's lvl's.
• Drop SO's more frequently at low levels - at the completion of any story arc - there are quite a few all the way up to lvl 22, so it encourages, not discourages, spending more time at the lower levels...

Dual Origin

• Boost values to 60% (not 50%) of SO's - Most types would go from 19.15% to 27.5%, Defense from 11.5% to 16.5%...Common IO's at lvl 15 start at 19.2% and 11.5%, and don't exceed those values until lvl 25
• Extend the range that DO's can be slotted from +3 above/+3 below current lvl, to +5 above/+5 below...no quite attuned (they still lose value every level, but make up for it with the higher values).  This means a -3 lvl enhancement would be better than a current +3 DO
• Drop DO's for all team members upon mission complete, for any mission, even at lvl 1

Training Origin

• Boost values from 25% of SO's to 33% - Most types would go from 9.6% to 15.17%, Defense from 5.75 to 9.1%...Lvl 10 IO's start at 11.7% & 7% respectively, and don't exceed these values until lvl 15...TO's would have real value almost as high as a current DO and exceed common IO's until lvl 15...
• Extend the range TO's can be slotted from +3/-3 to +7/-7 current lvl...again, not attuned...but slotting them at lvl 8 means you could use any TO from lvl 15 to lvl 1 to enhance your character
• Drop TO's at +3 of enemy level...fight a lvl 1 hellion gives you a lvl 4 enhancement, which would give you at 14% boost, higher than the current max value of 9.6%.  Only a -7 lvl TO would be less than the current max value of 9.6%

This doesn't change the value prop of IO's...they still keep their value all the way up, but it weakens them against using the standard enhancements since they would provide bigger boosts...It provides immediate and noticable improvement to people who aren't doing DFB/DiB all the way to lvl 22, but doesn't make any time of enhancement obsolete...

 

Also, remember, at the lower levels, you still have:

• P2W Enhancements (Dam/End at lvl 20)
• Beginner Luck - automatic 15% Tohit Buff at lvl 1 that decreases gradually until lvl 20 (~1% at lvl 19)

 

EDIT:  This also has the advantage of not changing the current cost structure, which would have to be another major change if we made TO's into DO's or just used SO's all the way up...(can you imagine 6K Inf for a lvl 5 SO Damage...yikes...or 2K inf for a lvl 5 DO?)

 

EDIT 2: There is still also DFB/DiB - In addition to getting the SO's, you also get a boost to accuracy or damage or defense for up to 1 week or lvl 22...So lots and lots of ways to be super in the lower levels...

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by justicebeliever

[DSorrow]

2 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

If the change is this big, it needs to address the entire enhancement system, or the next thread after this gets implement is "Why don't SO's attune like DO's?"

Well, the effect I'm after is not so much attuning the enhancements (hence "attuned" with quotation marks), but rather make their boost fixed (instead of relative to your level) and increase their working level range from 5 to about double that (reason for the expire date). Plus, of course, making them effective enough that you can notice a difference in gameplay after slotting them.

[kenlon]

11 hours ago, wjrasmussen said:

You are not forced to use them if that would make it more fun.

You haven't actually read the thread at all, have you? People already don't use them - not because not using them is more 'fun', but because TOs and DOs don't do enough to be worth bothering with. And thus your powers feel weak as hell until you can slot SOs (or SO equivalent IOs, of course.)

 

 

[n00baka]

1 hour ago, kenlon said:

You haven't actually read the thread at all, have you? People already don't use them - not because not using them is more 'fun', but because TOs and DOs don't do enough to be worth bothering with. And thus your powers feel weak as hell until you can slot SOs (or SO equivalent IOs, of course.)

 

 

To be fair, I don’t use them because they expire too fast, not because their effect is too little. 

[justicebeliever]

9 hours ago, kenlon said:

You haven't actually read the thread at all, have you? People already don't use them - not because not using them is more 'fun', but because TOs and DOs don't do enough to be worth bothering with. And thus your powers feel weak as hell until you can slot SOs (or SO equivalent IOs, of course.)

 

 

I agree I don't understand the response the poster gave to you, but regardless, I think most people don't use them because they are racing thru the lower levels so quickly the don't see the point in stopping to bother...

[Megajoule]

IMO, it's both - the bonuses they give are too small to matter, even when lingering at those levels, and the current leveling pace makes it moot.  On live, I'd grind to DOs, minimum, before slotting anything; now I grind the rest of the way to SOs.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Megajoule

[Leogunner]

On 8/16/2019 at 3:59 PM, justicebeliever said:

Thoughts?

 

Sounds like a bunch of "gimme gimme gimme" and doesn't really change the dynamic that players will just take the path of least resistance and use whatever is most effective.  The sprinkling in of buffing normal enhancements little by little to "catch up" with IOs is what does it for me.  As someone who actually uses TOs and DOs, these changes will only make you level faster and that is just unnecessary.

 

The prospect of increasing their accessibility (i.e. expanding the range of effectiveness before they expire) seems conservative enough to warrant using them without requiring shifting everything up.  I mean, I know that TOs have crap enhancement values...that's why you triple/quadruple up on things until you get a relevant DO/SO to put in the power.

 

This whole tangent of making TOs/DOs "fun" seems comical.  When has putting enhancements in powers ever been "fun"?  The only thing fun about it is gearing up something noticeably *better* in their place but you're actively trying to diminish that part so you can more easily hit ED caps with DOs.

 

If I were trying to make a suggestion to make enhancements "fun", it'd probably be through some gameplay-mode where using dropped enhancements were the only option (no market buys, no NPC buys, no IOs) and putting some improvements to drops/rewards/combinations to make the game feel like it's rewarding you and you are progressing:

• Drops - improve frequency slightly and increase the weight your origin has on the drops, i.e. you're more likely to get the right origin DO/SO
• Rewards - all mission bonus rewards would need to be made selectable.  It wouldn't be a carte blanch selection but there should be a set of options randomly chosen weighed by AT and locked to your origin.
• Combinations - yeah, there's this combination system that allows you to + your enhancements. There could be a system of combining non-like enhancements to randomly get other enhancement of different types (acc, dmg, confuse, endredux, etc) and fusing slotted enhancements to get bonus effects like "attuned", "+% bonus value", "origin upgrade", etc...but it would be random what you get and if it succeeds.

A lot of players request more aspects added to the game to add challenge but at the same time, they want to retain all the bells and whistles that push them beyond balance.  Rather than trying to push up and up and up, why not look for options to remain grounded?  And no, I'm not saying IOs ruined this or that or incarnates have done such and such to the ATs.  You can have all that stuff but I'd like concepts and incentives for utilizing the various game modes and difficulties.

[Some Random User]

11 hours ago, Leogunner said:

The prospect of increasing their accessibility (i.e. expanding the range of effectiveness before they expire) seems conservative enough to warrant using them without requiring shifting everything up.  I mean, I know that TOs have crap enhancement values...that's why you triple/quadruple up on things until you get a relevant DO/SO to put in the power.

I support the part quoted but not where you go from there. The only change I feel can't be dropped is the core idea that T.O.s and D.O.s are outleveled so fast. That's the complaint over and over. Would you be bothered with just making anything weaker than an S.O. keep functioning after being outleveled?

 

The idea someone suggested was to make D.O.s give their current bonus to two different things (Accuracy/Knockback, Endurance/Range, etc.). Do you have the same negative reaction to just combining the lesser-used benefits and the more used benefits in this way? (I'm defining "lesser-used" as anything that isn't Accuracy, Damage, Endurange cost reduction, or Recharge time reduction. Presumably, if either of the two could be slotted, the Enhancement could be slotted.)