An Update from The Homecoming Team

Abraxus · August 8, 2019

Large corporations might not be legally bound to maximize profits, and increase shareholders earnings, but most choose to make that their priority anyway. Big Pharma, and for-profit healthcare, insurance, etc. What those have in common is that they are based around providing services (some of which deal with life and death) for their customers. Yet, their business model is always tilted towards what is profitable, rather than what is right. The customer/patient's needs barely enter into the formula, save their past, present, and future potential contributions towards the company's profitability. Despite lip service to the contrary, their priority is to themselves, first and foremost. I have nothing but respect for the corporations that don't subscribe to this philosophy. But, I truly believe they are the exceptions, and not the rule.

All that said, I have faith in the intentions of the Homecoming/Titan team to negotiate in good faith on our behalf, with our interests at heart. If a deal can be reached that benefits us all (NCSoft included), and perhaps sparks interest in a new version of the game in the process, then all of this has been worthwhile.

Stepping off the soapbox, and returning you to your regularly scheduled FUD programming. 😉

Edited August 8, 2019 by Abraxus

Omega-202 · August 8, 2019

20 minutes ago, doc_miller said:

Just for the record, while widely believed, this is not true in either the US or Korea. While the idea had been dominant in management theory since the 80s, there are no legal requirements to maximize shareholder return, and thare are legal precedents specifically refuting this requirement.

Yes, I mispoke in that it is not specifically profit maximization but a good faith effort to work in the best interest of the shareholder.

But what other interests are at play here? It's not as if the health of the company is at stake. There's no larger public good at stake like the exceptions in the case law. This is a gaming company.

At the end of the day, while I over simplified it, the only interest at stake in this situation is profit. None of the exceptions are relevant here and are so rarely relevant elsewhere.

Sinfinite · August 8, 2019

11 hours ago, TonyV said:

Option D) None of the above...

Seriously, all I ask is to give us a little more time and wait until we can give some more details before deciding that it's all doom and gloom. I promise that if I didn't think this was going to be a good thing, I wouldn't be involved in it like I am. I'm not oblivious to the fact that at this point, my own reputation is inextricably tied to the outcome of what we're working on, and I'm not eager to come out of this with everyone thinking, "Man, Tony's an idiot." (Although I also recognize that a 5%-10% "hate rate" ain't so bad, so an occasional "Tony's an idiot" post doesn't get to me...)

Anyway, my point is that what we're working on isn't a "best deal we can get" situation. It is, in my opinion, a genuinely good deal. I'm trying my best to not get everyone overly worked up because nothing is inked yet and until it is I'll have a healthy dose of low-level paranoia. But I also think that as things are going, when we can talk more, a lot of skeptical people will come away pleasantly surprised.

Coming from a business perspective, it was the right move to engage NC Soft. It couldn't be ducked forever hoping things would just be left as they are. And the idea that it would cost too much money for NC Soft to play whack a mole with servers doesn't hold water. As someone who works with our Corporate legal team all the time, starting the legal action is not resource intensive. Going for injunctions is not resource intensive. Actually going through extensive litigation can be resource intensive.

It's always better to tackle these things on your own terms and try and frame the conversation. I'm guessing, but it seems that is what they have done (TonyV and folks, not NCSoft).

Communication is the other issue. If you look at government communication, business communication, sports team communication to fans, etc. , there is always the chance that people will not like what is being communicated, but a vacuum is a breeding ground for even worse things. Ultimately I think folks need to respect that they are giving us a high level of what is underway and as folks not part of the immediate team engaging in this activity, we don't get to hear all the details for now.

Besides, they brought us our game back...that is an amazing starter cache of good will as far as I'm concerned. I understand the fear of losing the game - this game is what my best friend and I spent years playing leading up to his passing just after the game closed. Every time I log in, it brings me memories of playing the game with him and my kids when they were younger. But I think staying positive is the better option for now and see what happens.

Just my 2 cents, I'm sure others (rightfully) will disagree and that's cool 🙂

Extor Prime · August 8, 2019

Negotiations imply that both parties have a degree of leverage, or something to offer each other. Otherwise it is "two wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner."

With all appropriate deference and respect to the HC team, what could HC ever offer NCSoft that would offset an extremely bad (from corporate standpoint) precedent? The one that goes "our IP and codebase is in someone else's hands, money is being exchanged and we aren't getting our slice of the pie?"

HC could not possibly offer enough money to NCSoft to make an appreciable difference. NCSoft will want so much that even with donations being very healthy NOW, HC team will lose their shirts the moment the playerbase dips.

I want to be optimistic, but all I can manage at the moment is scepticism. Good luck to us all.

Abraxus · August 8, 2019

Agreed Sinfinte. For the moment, we already have the game. What is being discussed is how it will go in the future. Will we continue to be an underground endeavor, hoping every day won't be it's last? Or, a sanctioned, above-board endeavor, that will thrive, grow, and enjoy the ability to do the things that our current status would make difficult, or impossible? I'm hoping for the latter option personally.

Rathulfr · August 8, 2019

13 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

There is almost no chance this is going to become a non-profit at this point...If it succeeds, they'll either own (in part or in whole) the rights to the game or they will pay to license the game...either way, it's a for-profit business at that point...

That'll be the moment that things start changing...Subscriptions? F2P Model? Microtransactions? Who knows, but they will need a revenue stream to support themselves...

That's not right at all. Non-profit organizations license software all the time: it's part and parcel of their routine operating expenses. Paying for software licenses doesn't change a non-profit to for-profit. It simply means the amount of operating costs go up every month, for which they'll need to ask for additional donations to cover those costs. They're already paying other vendors for software licenses: e.g.: they're paying Microsoft for SQL Server. And Microsoft isn't demanding any subscriptions or microtransactions or creative control over the game. They simply want a check every month, just like all the other vendors. How would a licensing agreement with NCSoft be any different? And if it were, why would HC choose to agree to that in the first place?

Abraxus · August 8, 2019

5 minutes ago, Extor Prime said:

Negotiations imply that both parties have a degree of leverage, or something to offer each other. Otherwise it is "two wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner."

With all appropriate deference and respect to the HC team, what could HC ever offer NCSoft that would offset an extremely bad (from corporate standpoint) precedent? The one that goes "our IP and codebase is in someone else's hands, money is being exchanged and we aren't getting our slice of the pie?"

HC could not possibly offer enough money to NCSoft to make an appreciable difference. NCSoft will want so much that even with donations being very healthy NOW, HC team will lose their shirts the moment the playerbase dips.

I want to be optimistic, but all I can manage at the moment is scepticism. Good luck to us all.

What could they possibly offer? Well, that's just it. We don't know, and we won't know until they arrive at a juncture where they can tell us. Until then, its nothing more than speculation based on our own perspectives, which might not necessarily be directly applicable. I prefer to base my thoughts/actions on facts, and until I get some, I leave things in the capable hands of the Homecoming/Titan team.

Remember, depression is typically centered on thoughts of the past. Anxiety is centered on thoughts of the future, and peace of mind is typically centered around thoughts of the present. Why? Because we know what the present is. There is nothing we can do about the past, except to learn from it. There is nothing we can do about the future, except await its arrival, and hope it is positive. Most often, there isn't much we can personally do to influence it, so why worry, unless it becomes necessary.

justicebeliever · August 8, 2019

Just now, Rathulfr said:

That's not right at all. Non-profit organizations license software all the time: it's part and parcel of their routine operating expenses. Paying for software licenses doesn't change a non-profit to for-profit. It simply means the amount of operating costs go up every month, for which they'll need to ask for additional donations to cover those costs. They're already paying other vendors for software licenses: e.g.: they're paying Microsoft for SQL Server. And Microsoft isn't demanding any subscriptions or microtransactions or creative control over the game. They simply want a check every month, just like all the other vendors. How would a licensing agreement with NCSoft be any different? And if it were, why would HC choose to agree to that in the first place?

HC isn't sharing their MS license with us...they aren't giving me SQL server...It's for their own use...This would be giving an entity a license for the express purposes of sharing that license with it's community, and that's entity sole purpose for existing is to share that license...

It's not the definition of a non-profit by any stretch

That being said, I told @TonyV I'd give him the chance to show us how this can be done...so I'm not saying they can't find a way...

VicZantosa · August 8, 2019

Ok, I'm about to write a book here...

I was an original beta tester for City of Heroes, about the same time that I got married. My wife is a very sweet person that I'm very fond of. When I told her about the new game that I was beta testing, she would watch me play, and very quickly became a fan. The playstyle, the stories, the open world, the lack of requirements for constant missions, the community that was quickly forming, which was different from other games, intrigued her. When the game went live, she and I both signed up. We played together on teams, made friends that we would see and talk to daily, and had fun. She loved that she could play as little or as much as she wanted, without being penalized. She was never a big gamer, but City of Heroes was the game for her. We played all the way up to the end, hoping that there would be some sort of last minute plan or escape clause, but no such thing happened. When the 'Save CoH' movement started, she had hope, and kept hoping. After CoH shut down, we tried to play other games together, but there was always something that was 'off' for her. DC Online, World of Warcraft, all of the others, couldn't capture lightning in a bottle. I stopped playing MMORPG completely, and gained other hobbies. My wife asked me, weekly, 'Is there any progress on bringing it back, or a version 2, or anything?' for the first year after shutdown. I stayed in touch on the Titan Network, followed developments, watch the lack of progress on the replacement versions, and shared things I thought were hopeful. The second year after shutdown all the way up to earlier this year, she still asked me once a month or so. She missed her CoH characters, her friends, and the fun we had from gaming together. We still did other fun things, but there was a tiny CoH shaped thing missing for her. Once the news broke about the pirate version, she was overjoyed. We quickly made characters and told all our old CoH friends about it, and we've had 5 of them return to the game, and we have a supergroup together. This is the good part of the story.

Now for the rest of the story. I'm not going to let this happen again. In real life, I am a server hardware and virtualization engineer. The very first thing I did was download a copy of the CoH server, client, and launcher, and got on eBay to find server hardware that would run it, which cost about $150. NCSoft has very little motivation to allow this to continue, and has not been very clear about their motivations in any of their negotiations. I applaud your efforts, but have very little hope that this will result in anything but a shutdown, either now, or six months from now, or a year from now. Later today I'm going to be saving all of the costumes for the characters I and my wife have carefully recreated from our old Live days on Freedom, and brace for impact.

I would very much like for the Homecoming guys to allow us to export existing characters, just so I don't have to powerlevel on my own or someone else's server.

Perma-Newbie · August 8, 2019

12 minutes ago, Extor Prime said:

Negotiations imply that both parties have a degree of leverage, or something to offer each other. Otherwise it is "two wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner."

With all appropriate deference and respect to the HC team, what could HC ever offer NCSoft that would offset an extremely bad (from corporate standpoint) precedent? The one that goes "our IP and codebase is in someone else's hands, money is being exchanged and we aren't getting our slice of the pie?"

HC could not possibly offer enough money to NCSoft to make an appreciable difference. NCSoft will want so much that even with donations being very healthy NOW, HC team will lose their shirts the moment the playerbase dips.

I want to be optimistic, but all I can manage at the moment is scepticism. Good luck to us all.

See my post above.

I own a business, and I've been in sales, marketing, and politics a long, long time.

The HC team is offering to do ALL of the work to basically run a trial balloon and run a City of Heroes retro-server with all of the liability implied and all NCSoft has to do is grant them the exclusive license to a dead IP.

What does NCSoft get out of it? They require the HC team to send usage and player count reports monthly (or even realtime) to NCSoft so NCSoft can gauge the interest level in City of Heroes over a 6/9/12 month period. If the interest level is there compared to current Steam games, then NCSoft can decide, based on ACTUAL PLAYER COUNT plus projections of new users that would be enticed by a new CoX2 engine release, to re-monetize and update to create a sequel.

In short, the Homecoming team is a free test marketing team for NCSoft AND by giving them the EXCLUSIVE license when they smack the cease and desist on others they have an even stronger argument in court that the IP and Code has NOT been abandoned but is in CURRENT MAINTAINED DEVELOPMENT by an OFFICIALLY LICENSED AND APPROVED team.

It's legal manna from heaven.

Rathulfr · August 8, 2019

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

HC isn't sharing their MS license with us...they aren't giving me SQL server...It's for their own use...This would be giving an entity a license for the express purposes of sharing that license with it's community, and that's entity sole purpose for existing is to share that license...

It's not the definition of a non-profit by any stretch

That being said, I told @TonyV I'd give him the chance to show us how this can be done...so I'm not saying they can't find a way...

Uh, what? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. There's no "sharing" with a "license". The whole point of a license is that you're paying a fee for the privilege of using something you don't own. Homecoming pays for licenses to use Windows Server and SQL Server, and they probably pay other vendors for licenses to use their software, too. All of that software is used to provide services that are "shared" with Homecoming's clients/patrons.

Pick any other non-profit organization that provides online services, e.g.: The United Way or The Salvation Army. They all pay for software licensing agreements for their operations, their websites, their web-based apps, etc. They're "sharing" their services, too. None of that changes them from a non-profit to a for-profit.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

_NOPE_ · August 8, 2019

Data is priceless.

Abraxus · August 8, 2019

8 minutes ago, VicZantosa said:

Ok, I'm about to write a book here...

I was an original beta tester for City of Heroes, about the same time that I got married. My wife is a very sweet person that I'm very fond of. When I told her about the new game that I was beta testing, she would watch me play, and very quickly became a fan. The playstyle, the stories, the open world, the lack of requirements for constant missions, the community that was quickly forming, which was different from other games, intrigued her. When the game went live, she and I both signed up. We played together on teams, made friends that we would see and talk to daily, and had fun. She loved that she could play as little or as much as she wanted, without being penalized. She was never a big gamer, but City of Heroes was the game for her. We played all the way up to the end, hoping that there would be some sort of last minute plan or escape clause, but no such thing happened. When the 'Save CoH' movement started, she had hope, and kept hoping. After CoH shut down, we tried to play other games together, but there was always something that was 'off' for her. DC Online, World of Warcraft, all of the others, couldn't capture lightning in a bottle. I stopped playing MMORPG completely, and gained other hobbies. My wife asked me, weekly, 'Is there any progress on bringing it back, or a version 2, or anything?' for the first year after shutdown. I stayed in touch on the Titan Network, followed developments, watch the lack of progress on the replacement versions, and shared things I thought were hopeful. The second year after shutdown all the way up to earlier this year, she still asked me once a month or so. She missed her CoH characters, her friends, and the fun we had from gaming together. We still did other fun things, but there was a tiny CoH shaped thing missing for her. Once the news broke about the pirate version, she was overjoyed. We quickly made characters and told all our old CoH friends about it, and we've had 5 of them return to the game, and we have a supergroup together. This is the good part of the story.

Now for the rest of the story. I'm not going to let this happen again. In real life, I am a server hardware and virtualization engineer. The very first thing I did was download a copy of the CoH server, client, and launcher, and got on eBay to find server hardware that would run it, which cost about $150. NCSoft has very little motivation to allow this to continue, and has not been very clear about their motivations in any of their negotiations. I applaud your efforts, but have very little hope that this will result in anything but a shutdown, either now, or six months from now, or a year from now. Later today I'm going to be saving all of the costumes for the characters I and my wife have carefully recreated from our old Live days on Freedom, and brace for impact.

I would very much like for the Homecoming guys to allow us to export existing characters, just so I don't have to powerlevel on my own or someone else's server.

I can appreciate all of that. Much of your story, matches my own with regards to CoH. But, try to hang long enough to know what the real deal is before going off on your own. Having a thriving community of thousands of players is an important part of the game that you would not be able to replicate on a private server. Sure, you could get friends to join, but it comes down to availability. Not everyone is always able to play when you are, so in a live server situation like Homecoming, that's where you join other teams, TFs, Trials, etc.

And, for the record, you wouldn't have to powerlevel characters on your own server. As the admin, you could take them straight to L50, and give them all T4 incarnate powers if you wish. There are no limits in your own server.

justicebeliever · August 8, 2019

2 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Uh, what? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. There's no "sharing" with a "license". The whole point of a license is that you're paying a fee for the privilege of using something you don't own. Homecoming pays for licenses to use Windows Server and SQL Server, and they probably pay other vendors for licenses to use their software, too. All of that software is used to provide services that are "shared" with Homecoming's clients/patrons.

Pick any other non-profit organization that provides online services, e.g.: The United Way or The Salvation Army. They all pay for software licensing agreements for their operations, their websites, their web-based apps, etc. They're "sharing" their services, too. None of that changes them from a non-profit to a for-profit.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

Licenses are for a specific # of users...and those licensed to a non-profit are typically only for users who are in the employ or volunteer with that non-profit. So for example...I give to both the United Way and the Salvation army...I am a donor, but I am not a user of any of the software that has been licensed to the United Way or to the Salvation Army...If the Salvation Army said, "Hey Justice, thanks for the $50, would you like to use MS Office?" that would breach their licensing agreement with Microsoft...

In this case, we are the end users, not the entity...so in truth. HC would become an agent of NCSoft, giving HC permission to manage their software for them. And, it's hard to make a case, that your Non-profit's reason for existence to is to manage software licensing for another company...It doesn't meet any of the definitions of an IRS Tax Exempt Organization...

Omega-202 · August 8, 2019

9 minutes ago, MadCow99 said:

See my post above.

I own a business, and I've been in sales, marketing, and politics a long, long time.

The HC team is offering to do ALL of the work to basically run a trial balloon and run a City of Heroes retro-server with all of the liability implied and all NCSoft has to do is grant them the exclusive license to a dead IP.

What does NCSoft get out of it? They require the HC team to send usage and player count reports monthly (or even realtime) to NCSoft so NCSoft can gauge the interest level in City of Heroes over a 6/9/12 month period. If the interest level is there compared to current Steam games, then NCSoft can decide, based on ACTUAL PLAYER COUNT plus projections of new users that would be enticed by a new CoX2 engine release, to re-monetize and update to create a sequel.

In short, the Homecoming team is a free test marketing team for NCSoft AND by giving them the EXCLUSIVE license when they smack the cease and desist on others they have an even stronger argument in court that the IP and Code has NOT been abandoned but is in CURRENT MAINTAINED DEVELOPMENT by an OFFICIALLY LICENSED AND APPROVED team.

It's legal manna from heaven.

Or, the HC team have provided data on the past few months through these "negotiations" and NCSoft is crunching the numbers on whether to launch their own CoH 1 servers instead of spending money on a CoH 2.

Glass half full, glass half empty. I err on the side that they're looking to screw us.

Abraxus · August 8, 2019

If that's the case, then there never was anything we could do about it. So, until we know for sure which way it falls, I say we play on.

ShardWarrior · August 8, 2019

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

Licenses are for a specific # of users

There are also Enterprise level licenses that allow for unlimited users. Also, you are using SQL every time you login and play. You are sending data back and forth to the database all the time.

Rathulfr · August 8, 2019

8 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Licenses are for a specific # of users...and those licensed to a non-profit are typically only for users who are in the employ or volunteer with that non-profit. So for example...I give to both the United Way and the Salvation army...I am a donor, but I am not a user of any of the software that has been licensed to the United Way or to the Salvation Army...If the Salvation Army said, "Hey Justice, thanks for the $50, would you like to use MS Office?" that would breach their licensing agreement with Microsoft...

In this case, we are the end users, not the entity...so in truth. HC would become an agent of NCSoft, giving HC permission to manage their software for them. And, it's hard to make a case, that your Non-profit's reason for existence to is to manage software licensing for another company...It doesn't meet any of the definitions of an IRS Tax Exempt Organization...

You're making a lot of assumptions there that don't make any sense. Licenses are not always limited to specific numbers of users -- it depends on the license, and the devil is in the details. Also, if you're using a web app, you're a user, period. Using an app doesn't imply or guarantee a transfer of the license: it just means the license is exercised, as intended. By licensing the software from NCSoft, Homecoming would no more be an "agent" of NCSoft than they would be an "agent" of Microsoft by licensing SQL Server. I'm beginning to think you don't really understand how software licenses or non-profits work.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Rathulfr

Perma-Newbie · August 8, 2019

2 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Or, the HC team have provided data on the past few months through these "negotiations" and NCSoft is crunching the numbers on whether to launch their own CoH 1 servers instead of spending money on a CoH 2.

Glass half full, glass half empty. I err on the side that they're looking to screw us.

NCSoft taking over the Homecoming servers and making them official, depending on how that works, may not be a negative outcome.

7 years ago, microtransactions were in their infancy.

Today, a f2p version of CoX that had new costume sets coming out every month or two at $3.99 would be a perfectly viable business model.

Don't let the falling skies of the past make you forget that the world has changed since CoX shut down.

justicebeliever · August 8, 2019

1 minute ago, Rathulfr said:

You're making a lot of assumptions there that don't make any sense. Licenses are not always limited to specific numbers of users -- it depends on the license, and the devil is in the details. Also, if you're using a web app, you're a user, period. Using an app doesn't imply or guarantee of transfer of the license: it just means the license is exercised, as intended. By licensing the software from NCSoft, Homecoming would no more be an "agent" of NCSoft than they would be an "agent" of Microsoft by licensing SQL Server. I'm beginning to think you don't really understand how software licenses or non-profits work.

I've worked both angles for many years...

But please, enlighten me, since we are going down the path of clarifying each other's understandings...

Regarding Non-Profits: What other Non-Profit's mission is to deliver a video game to regular joes? I'm curious as to your experience...

Regarding Enterprise Licensing - Please name a situation where MS allow people outside of the licensed entity, permission to use their software? Again, please explain?

Rathulfr · August 8, 2019

2 minutes ago, MadCow99 said:

NCSoft taking over the Homecoming servers and making them official, depending on how that works, may not be a negative outcome.

7 years ago, microtransactions were in their infancy.

Today, a f2p version of CoX that had new costume sets coming out every month or two at $3.99 would be a perfectly viable business model.

Don't let the falling skies of the past make you forget that the world has changed since CoX shut down.

The only snag is that this would change Homecoming from a non-profit to a for-profit, which I don't think they want to do -- see other replies from them above. I think that the HC team is trying to avoid the whole microtransaction nonsense entirely. It's a hassle they don't need, and they know it would turn off a lot of people. So it's probably better just to avoid it entirely.

Omega-202 · August 8, 2019

1 minute ago, MadCow99 said:

NCSoft taking over the Homecoming servers and making them official, depending on how that works, may not be a negative outcome.

No way they'd take over HC. There's code written by outside parties in HC. We'd get a blank slate i24 server at best with the HC team completely cut out of the system.

Like I said earlier, they are going to take the data, start their own official server and shut down HC. You are right about the data being valuable, but I don't think they'll use it like you think.

ShardWarrior · August 8, 2019

2 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

The only snag is that this would change Homecoming from a non-profit to a for-profit, which I don't think they want to do -- see other replies from them above. I think that the HC team is trying to avoid the whole microtransaction nonsense entirely. It's a hassle they don't need, and they know it would turn off a lot of people. So it's probably better just to avoid it entirely.

Microtransactions or lootboxes? My experience is most nowadays are ok with microtransactions for cosmetics and such. It's those dastardly loot boxes they all despise.

justicebeliever · August 8, 2019

11 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

There are also Enterprise level licenses that allow for unlimited users. Also, you are using SQL every time you login and play. You are sending data back and forth to the database all the time.

That SQL example is not the same and you know it...They license by the processing power not the user...so it's irrelevant the # of users...that's an apples to pizza comparison...

Edited August 8, 2019 by justicebeliever

Rathulfr · August 8, 2019

8 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

I've worked both angles for many years...

But please, enlighten me, since we are going down the path of clarifying each other's understandings...

Regarding Non-Profits: What other Non-Profit's mission is to deliver a video game to regular joes? I'm curious as to your experience...

Regarding Enterprise Licensing - Please name a situation where MS allow people outside of the licensed entity, permission to use their software? Again, please explain?

What difference does it make it the non-profit is providing a video game or some other kind of service? What if the video game is the service it provides? There's nothing in non-profit law that prevents a non-profit organization from hosting video games. That's not what defines the nature of the non-profit organization.

I'll give you an example: Homecoming's City of Heroes is allowing people outside of the license entity permission to use their licensed software, SQL Server. Every time you logon and play, you're using SQL Server. Another example is this BBS software we're using to communicate. Homecoming licenses that for this kind of usage, too. Everything anyone does on the web involves some kind of licensing somewhere, regardless of whether or not they're non-profit or for-profit. There's lots of different kinds of licenses and usages.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Rathulfr

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