Opt-Out of Incarnate

[ZeeHero]

Nobody wants their horse to be high. it's not safe to ride a high horse.

[Steampunkette]

4 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

No, of course not.

But they do have to SUPPORT the story.

 

That's not how it works.

 

Conveniently, the 5th edition of "DC Adventures" - the official RPG for playing in the world of Batman, Superman, et al - uses the third edition Mutants and Masterminds rules.

Nightwing - Dick Grayson's adult heroic persona - is PL 10.  His activities are focussed primarily in a single city, Bludhaven.  He is at the upper end of "street level" heroes.

 

Robin (Tim Drake) is PL 8; Batman is PL12.

Meanwhile, the Joker is PL 11.  A decent match for either Batman or Nightwing, but for young Tim Drake?  Seriously hard.

And that's just the Joker.  A one-city villain.  So, a "Street Level" Archvillain.

...
 

Meanwhile, Darkseid is PL 16.  If Robin had to face him, Darkseid's only real challenge will be deciding which minion to order to wipe Tim's remains off of his boot.

Rularuu coming to Paragon City, would be like Darkseid coming to Gotham.  Out of Batman's league - he would have to put out a desperate call for help from his SG - and hope more than two of them show up; Superman and Wonder Woman are both PL 15, Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) and the Martian Manhunter are PL 14, Aquaman and the Flash are PL 12 ...

Whether a hero is "street level" or "global" or "cosmic" has to do more with the relative power level of who he or she faces (and how broad of a threat they ultimately pose), than with the particular theater of the conflict.
 

And none of that matters 1 entire Damn if my narrative doesn't hold to their standards of power.

 

If my "Street Level" heroes are PL 16 then my "World Heroes" are 18s and my "Cosmics" are 22s. Or I could make my Cosmics 16s and just run that story instead.

 

The game facilitates the storytelling. It doesn't -force- you to follow the Developer's recommendations on how strong different characters or concepts are. Mainly 'cause how many power points you spends means nothing if the enemies are at the same level of power.

 

Again, I'll point you to Paladin and Jurassik, Deathsurge and Rularuu. All are "Giant Monsters". Your level 50 Incarnate IOd out superbad "Cosmic Superhero" character hits Paladin like you're level 19. Your Judgement? Hits like you're level 19. All your high tier attack powers? Like you're level 19. Meanwhile he hits you like he's level 50.

 

He's not a Cosmic entity here to destroy our world. He's a big psychic clockwork manipulated by a guy who got beat near to death by a Superhero Cop. The Joker, Batman, Superman. All of them hit Paladin just as hard, regardless of their "PL"

 

Now stop trying to use Mutants and Masterminds to justify City of Heroes. Not only is it an apples to oranges situation it's also people trying to put DC's characters into a system they weren't created with. It's always going to be a Square Peg Round Hole situation at best.

[ZeeHero]

I mean if the story doesn't make sense to those participating or the audience it's not a good one so whats appropriate will vary.

[Steampunkette]

4 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

I mean if the story doesn't make sense to those participating or the audience it's not a good one so whats appropriate will vary.

Sure. Which is why I suggest having a bunch of different stories to tell.

 

After all, Batman can hang with the high end of the Justice League but also goes right back to Gotham to nearly get killed by the Joker or some themed Doctor-Criminal with a gun or a bomb or a plant every other week. 

 

Because in Comics it's not a one way street of the superhero getting more powerful until nothing 'Street Level' can oppose them. Certain stories go that way, obviously. But not -all- of them. Batman and Spider-Man don't face the DBZ problem where their power has to continually grow to beat ever increasing threats 'til they're blowing up planets when they get the broccoli farts.

 

Which is why the best possible CoH2 would include the idea of Narrative Scale from Day 1 'til Sundown. But for City as it is I think the best solution to the presented problem is the "No Incarnate Drops" P2W button. Just so the people who want to can choose to opt out.

 

For the record: it's not a problem for me. I just incarnate out all my characters and ignore the narrative surrounding it, then re-write the narrative of missions I do for my Street Sweeper type heroes. Hell, I run "Hero in the Isles" concept characters where I roleplay with friends that we're all heroes and rewrite the mission narratives in the RP to support that claim, the CoV Writing team has no power over -me-!

 

But I respect that Megajoule has a problem, here, and it seems to have an easy solution. So why not?

Edited August 16, 2019 by Steampunkette

[PaxArcana]

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

And none of that matters 1 entire Damn if my narrative doesn't hold to their standards of power.

The problem here is, you are not the sole narrator of the CoX story.

 

You're not the Game Master, running the game for the other players.

As for your narrative holding to their standards of power ... let's look at Captain Marvel ("SHAZAM!" and all that).  He's Power Level 15.

His Strength score is 19; if he wants to pick something up, he just does, if it weighs up to 12,000 tons.  Twelve.  Thousand.  Tons.  To put that in scale, the U.S. Navy's latest ship class, the Zumwalt destroyer, has a displacement of 14,564 long tons, or about 16,312 short tons.  That is just a little more than he can automatically lift, so he would have to use "Extra Effort", mark one Hero Point off as "used" for that adventure (it's not permanently gone, though - he'll get it back), upping his limit to 25,000 tons, and ..... whoosh, the Destroyer is lifted over his head.  (He'll have to spend more Hero Points to KEEP it there, mind, so eventually he'll have to put it down.  Or throw it at Black Adam, maybe ...)

 

Shazam is a fairly TYPICAL "flying strong guy" for PL 15.  And throwing navy destroyers at badguys is NOT Street-level!

 

When playing M&M3 or DCA5, either your narrative conforms to their standards of power, or you need to choose a different game system.  There is no Door #3 here.

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

If my "Street Level" heroes are PL 16 then my "World Heroes" are 18s and my "Cosmics" are 22s. Or I could make my Cosmics 16s and just run that story instead.

That's not how that game works.  Literally, it's not possible for it to work that way.  The various Power Levels are defined, explicitly, in the book.  The image below is the examples they give.

 

The game is mechanically set up for those definitions; you literally cannot say "my PL 16 story is a street-level game" - PL16 heroes would literally, and inevitably, be too powerful to stay "street-level" for more than five minutes of play time.  The game provides a framework, and when you decide "I want Mystery Men, not Justice League" ... that means you want a PL 8 game.  You cannot successfully shoe-horn a PL16 game into being Mystery Men.  The characters would be too powerful .... because Power Level is literally how powerful a character is.

 

Superman is PL 15.  Superman is not a Street-level hero, because he is to street-level threats, as you are to a typical ant.

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Batman and Spider-Man don't face the DBZ problem where their power has to continually grow to beat ever increasing threats 'til they're blowing up planets when they get the broccoli farts.

Because Comics are not Games.

In a GAME ...?  Yes, they both actually do have to steadily increase in power.

If you were to run "The Super-Friends" as a campaign of DC Adventures ....?  As with CoX, as you play and foil villains, you gain new Hero Points.  Which you then spend to increase your abilities.  As you increase those abilities, your Power Level eventually increases.  The default rule is, every 15 new points, is a +1 increase in Power Level.  Typically, you gain 1 new point after each adventure (which should take about 4-6 hours of play on average).  2 is you faced off especially strong opponents.  Adventures that are longer, and take multiple sessions, get these awards per session.  And, possibly, 1 or 2 extra points if the heroes did especially well, above and beyond basic success.

In CoX terms: after about fifteen door missions, maybe less if there's a tough boss in there ... +1 Power Level, congratulations.

Edited August 16, 2019 by PaxArcana

[ShardWarrior]

I would not mind an option to "turn off Incarnate XP" as an opt out.  I have several toons that I never pictured them as being "incarnate" level heroes.

 

I also would be all for account level discounts for Incarnate XP and such. Basically, the first time you level any character in the incarnate system to +3, all other characters on the account from then on get an x% discount on xp/crafting etc. 

 

STO has a system like this for their reputation system.  Essentially, you need to slog through the rep to final tier once, then the rest of your characters get a discount.  Really helps alleviate the grind.

 

 

[PaxArcana]

8 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I would not mind an option to "turn off Incarnate XP" as an opt out.

[...]

I also would be all for account level discounts for Incarnate XP and such.

These, I would absolutely not argue with.  🙂  Especially since we can turn off XP at all before reaching level 50.

[Steampunkette]

 

41 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

The problem here is, you are not the sole narrator of the CoX story.

 

You're not the Game Master, running the game for the other players.

As for your narrative holding to their standards of power ... let's look at Captain Marvel ("SHAZAM!" and all that).  He's Power Level 15.

His Strength score is 19; if he wants to pick something up, he just does, if it weighs up to 12,000 tons.  Twelve.  Thousand.  Tons.  To put that in scale, the U.S. Navy's latest ship class, the Zumwalt destroyer, has a displacement of 14,564 long tons, or about 16,312 short tons.  That is just a little more than he can automatically lift, so he would have to use "Extra Effort", mark one Hero Point off as "used" for that adventure (it's not permanently gone, though - he'll get it back), upping his limit to 25,000 tons, and ..... whoosh, the Destroyer is lifted over his head.  (He'll have to spend more Hero Points to KEEP it there, mind, so eventually he'll have to put it down.  Or throw it at Black Adam, maybe ...)

 

Shazam is a fairly TYPICAL "flying strong guy" for PL 15.  And throwing navy destroyers at badguys is NOT Street-level!

 

When playing M&M3 or DCA5, either your narrative conforms to their standards of power, or you need to choose a different game system.  There is no Door #3 here.

That's not how that game works.  Literally, it's not possible for it to work that way.  The various Power Levels are defined, explicitly, in the book.  The image below is the examples they give.

 

The game is mechanically set up for those definitions; you literally cannot say "my PL 16 story is a street-level game" - PL16 heroes would literally, and inevitably, be too powerful to stay "street-level" for more than five minutes of play time.  The game provides a framework, and when you decide "I want Mystery Men, not Justice League" ... that means you want a PL 8 game.  You cannot successfully shoe-horn a PL16 game into being Mystery Men.  The characters would be too powerful .... because Power Level is literally how powerful a character is.

 

Superman is PL 15.  Superman is not a Street-level hero, because he is to street-level threats, as you are to a typical ant.

Because Comics are not Games.

In a GAME ...?  Yes, they both actually do have to steadily increase in power.

If you were to run "The Super-Friends" as a campaign of DC Adventures ....?  As with CoX, as you play and foil villains, you gain new Hero Points.  Which you then spend to increase your abilities.  As you increase those abilities, your Power Level eventually increases.  The default rule is, every 15 new points, is a +1 increase in Power Level.  Typically, you gain 1 new point after each adventure (which should take about 4-6 hours of play on average).  2 is you faced off especially strong opponents.  Adventures that are longer, and take multiple sessions, get these awards per session.  And, possibly, 1 or 2 extra points if the heroes did especially well, above and beyond basic success.

In CoX terms: after about fifteen door missions, maybe less if there's a tough boss in there ... +1 Power Level, congratulations.

Allow me to repeat myself:

9 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

 

Now stop trying to use Mutants and Masterminds to justify City of Heroes's narrative choice. Not only is it an apples to oranges situation it's also people trying to put DC's characters into a system they weren't created with. It's always going to be a Square Peg Round Hole situation at best.

And, again, I'm not trying to be the "Sole Narrator" of CoH1. I've said, -time and again- that I'd do the multiple scales narrative as part of a CoH2 if I were a part of designing it 'cause it would allow for more character and narrative variety than CoH currently does.

 

For this game and the problem presented: A simple 'Yes/No' flag on Incarnate Drops added to the P2W vendor seems like the best solution. Low investment, low impact to the community, high impact to those who want it. As I've also said, repeatedly.

[PaxArcana]

That's an awful signal-to-noise ratio you have going there, Steampunkette.

Anyway: my use of M&M/DCA was solely to illustrate how levels work.  CoX has those - 50 of them, pre-Incarnate.  Build/Slotting aside, a Level 50 character is always going to have the power of a Level 50 character.  And that power is not, nor never will be, "street level".  NOR CAN IT BE.  Whether you're Batman Manticore, or Superman Statesman ... level 50 is level 50 is level 50 (Incarnate stuff totally aside).  And it needs to be that way, for CoX to function as a multiplayer game.

 

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I'd do the multiple scales narrative as part of a CoH2

This would entail essentially developing the same game multiple times in parallel.

It would also doom the game to inevitable failure, as players got upset, forty-plus levels down the road, that they picked "the wrong scale" and now they're stuck with it.  Many of them would leave, and w/o enough players, MMOs die.

Edited August 16, 2019 by PaxArcana

[Steampunkette]

31 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

That's an awful signal-to-noise ratio you have going there, Steampunkette.

Anyway: my use of M&M/DCA was solely to illustrate how levels work.  CoX has those - 50 of them, pre-Incarnate.  Build/Slotting aside, a Level 50 character is always going to have the power of a Level 50 character.  And that power is not, nor never will be, "street level".  NOR CAN IT BE.  Whether you're Batman Manticore, or Superman Statesman ... level 50 is level 50 is level 50 (Incarnate stuff totally aside).  And it needs to be that way, for CoX to function as a multiplayer game.

 

This would entail essentially developing the same game multiple times in parallel.

It would also doom the game to inevitable failure, as players got upset, forty-plus levels down the road, that they picked "the wrong scale" and now they're stuck with it.  Many of them would leave, and w/o enough players, MMOs die.

Signal to Noise happens when you've got multiple conversations going on over one topic.

 

And that's how levels work in THAT GAME. That's not how levels 'have to' work. It being Common doesn't mean it's Needed. Look at Minecraft with it's levels that don't function to separate players from given content. That game uses gear to determine what kind of content you can handle. Much like Conan Exiles. Games that use levels or whatever tend to increase a character's narrative power, sure, but even in WoW you're still fighting the 'Local Wildlife' of whatever new continent gets opened up and there's no sane reason for Bears in Northrend to have 16 times the HP of Bears in Kalimdor and yet... It's honestly maddening.

 

And yeah. Having multiple Scales would be almost like having 2-3 zones at every level range with different storylines going on in each of them that ascribe to different narrative scales... Huh. Which... City of Heroes kind of already -does-... When you go to Talos Island over Independent Port you're choosing more Magical rather than Science storylines. What if instead of that, you made it 'Big' and 'Small' scales?

 

Just make some of the zones 'Big Scale Stories' and some of the zones 'Small Scale Stories' and let people wander around wherever they like. Make it a Smorgasbord of Content where you get to pick and choose what you do all the way through leveling. No need to "Scale Lock" characters. After all, Batman helps Superman fight Darkseid and then goes back to Gotham and nearly gets killed by a dude in a Green Jacket who asks silly questions.

 

Level 50 (or 40, or 200, or whatever) is still the same power between characters. I get that it has to be that way and I'm never going to dispute it. No point in disputing it. But level 50 doesn't have to mean "Cosmic Hero" or even "World Class Hero" if the narrative doesn't -force- it to do so.

[ZeeHero]

Hell at her peak (not yet reached power) one of my characters can easily lift something weighing a lot more than a navy destroyer. this doesn't mean she can't  start at street level or maybe a bit above it. ability to use powers effectively is based on practice much like in mutants and masterminds how power levels can increase.

[Chuckers]

On 8/14/2019 at 2:48 PM, Yoru-hime said:

 do we need a separate "City of Mortals" track beyond 50?

 

Many of us believed the next expansion was going to be City of NPC's. You played a hapless citizen who got xp for being mugged, kidnapped, and trapped in magical spells waiting to be freed by a hero who stumbled into Orenbega. You got bonus xp for following a hero out of the map, not getting lost, and not getting stuck in a corner. You main goal was to become someone who hands out missions to Heroes in PI. 

[Steampunkette]

On the note of "Levels have to mean you're big and powerful!"

 

I played Mists of Pandaria from release (I had a Warlock Tank with Dark Apotheosis because that's when WoW was still trying some cool concepts like cloth-tanking) and there's an enemy in one of the -hallways- of a raid. Like before you get anywhere -near- the next boss. This enemy -always- one-shotted anyone it caught. Tank with all your buffs on? Instant-Kill. Didn't matter what your hit points were it literally has an attack that instantly kills you. Even now, after Warlords of Draenor, Legion, and Battle For Azeroth, those enemies will one-shot you.

 

It was a running gag that whenever I got to that hallway I'd make a big speech in the raid group:

 

"Heroes of Azeroth! You have battled against the Black Dragonflight and slain Onyxia. You turned aside the Burning Legion and defeated Kil'jaeden before imprisoning Illidan Stormrage. You've even battled the Lich King himself and slain the God of Death Yogg Saron. And in recent months you battled Deathwing and the Old Gods which controlled him. Now, now you face your most dangerous foe!"

 

 

"This Snail!"

 

That's right. The above NPC instantly kills you. Doesn't matter how powerful you are. A giant Snail (Tauren are about as tall as the stone block behind it) instantly kills you.

 

Because Levels are only as important to the Narrative as the writer decides they are.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Jeuraud]

 

14 hours ago, maleficent said:

Wow. Grief much? I thought I was very respectful with my answer to the OP. It is not an unreasonable request they are making. But it might also take some time for the Devs to code in and the OP might like to have a functional workaround until the Devs will/won't make a decision about such a feature. I am not here to shame anybody if they don't want to do end-game content. The OP asked for a feature and, baring that, advice.

The OP did not ask for advice; they asked for a specific change to the post 50 game for some of their characters, not all of them.

The OP is not a NewB, you can tell that from reading their post. Their request is no different than the XP Shut Off that you oh so sweetly told them to use; note, not told them about, but told them to use, something I'm pretty sure they already new about.

The XP Shut Off was not part of the game until someone requested it, in the "Suggestion Forum".

 

Personally I do not consider the CoHH Suggestion Forum to be a safe place to make suggestions, it's way to easy to Troll suggestions. I also felt the same about the CoHV Suggestion Forum.

 

Just to reiterate, I'm for the OPs request.

 

[PaxArcana]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Signal to Noise happens when you've got multiple conversations going on over one topic.

No, in this case it meant that you quoted my entire moderately-long post, including the image, to fire off a half-paragraph worth of response.
 

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

And that's how levels work in THAT GAME.

EVERY game.

Look, I don't know how much experience you have with level-based RPGs, but I'd been part of that hobby for some forty or so years now - including playtests (think "in beta") with NDAs, while on a first-name basis with the people designing them.

 

In all of them, ALL of them, a difference in level means a difference in power.  And in every single last one of them, any two players (of the same class, archetype, role, or equivalent if the system has those) who is at the same level, has roughly the same degree of power.  In systems without levels, that used a point-build system, significant differences in point totals mean significant differences in power.  A 100-point GURPS Super is nowhere near the power of a 300-point GURPS Super.  A Shadowrun Street Samurai fresh out of character creation is no match for a Street Samurai with a career total of 300 Karma earned.

 

EVERY.  SINGLE.  SYSTEM. that includes any form of advancement at all .... more advancement means more power.  Two characters with the same advancement, generally have the same power.

 

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Look at Minecraft with it's levels

Minecraft does not have levels.  You are not "a level 15 miner" or "a level 8 carpenter".  Even with the later addition of pseudo-RPG progression, it's a serious case of apples-and-apricots to compare it to CoX's level advancement system.

 

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Having multiple Scales would be almost like having 2-3 zones at every level range

No, it'd be more than that.

 

To appropriately challenge, say, a 40th level character .... the NPC mobs have to be 38th to 43rd level.

A generic Freakshow thug, or a Rikti foot soldier - if they're both 41st level, they are the same power level.  The Cosmic-scale "storyline" hero would fare no better against the Freakshow thug than against the Rikti foot soldier.  Even though, in a logical narrative, that Rikti soldier would wipe the floor with any DOZEN Freakshow mooks - and therefor, a Hero that regularly faces dozens of Rikti soldiers, would have to face a hundred or more of the mooks to even get near to breaking a sweat.

 

Which means, "40th level" would have to mean different things for the Cosmic hero, than it does for the Street hero.  That means an entirely separate advancement track, and a separate combat-effectiveness scale ... and a way to SHOW the Street level player that "yeah, those Rikti guys are only 40th level, but they con so purple to you, you should be losing HP just being in the same zone as them".

That's more than just having separate storylines.

...

If you want to stick with the "only a problem in this neighborhood/city/etc" storylines, then you need to turn off XP at a level where that sort of thing still happens.

 

Doing otherwise just is not workable.  It's not merely impractical, it's physically impossible.

 

To return to M&M: you'd be talking about a meta-campaign, with multiple groups in a single shared world.  Some of them are playing PL 7 or 8 teenaged heroes in High School or even Middle School.  some are playing PL 11 or 12 characters, the adult mentors to those teen sidekicks.  Some of them are playing PL 15 or 16 heroes, the ones who go off into space, other dimensions, and so forth.

It can work, just fine, yes.  But, here's the trick: if you play for a while?  Those teenagers will increase to PL 9, then PL 10 ... eventually, all the way to PL 15.  Inevitably, just as a consequence of playing the game.  So, the character who was once a 13 or 14 year old green-as-grass newbie sidekick nervously taking on muggers, armed robbers, and the occasional drug dealer in his neighborhood, will eventually be one of "Earth's Mightiest Guardians", calmly handling extradimensional incursions and alien invasions around the entire world, and possibly beyond.

One thing they will not do, is stay Power Level 7 and 8.  Another thing they will not do, is still be dealing primarily with petty criminals at Power Level 15.

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

But level 50 doesn't have to mean "Cosmic Hero" or even "World Class Hero" if the narrative doesn't -force- it to do so.

You are still mistaking "the size of the stage" with "the power of the opposition (and the heroes who rise to meet it)".

[ZeeHero]

That may be fine and dandy that a snail one shots people but without a plausible explaination on how it does that nobody will like or possibly even accept the narrative.

[Steampunkette]

Holy shit, dude. I'm... I just don't get how you are having such a hard time understanding this. I -get- your perspective. I'm saying that it is self-limiting.

 

Try to grasp mine. Don't try to make up your own version of mine with a bunch of rules about how characters would 'need to be limited' or whatever. Read what I'm writing, right now, take it in, and try to understand it.

 

In a Perfect CoH2 there would be different Narrative Scales. Some stories would be 'Cosmic' or 'World Class Heroism' at level 1. Some would be Street or Neighborhood level stories at level 50.

 

Maybe you pick how you interact with different Glowies in missions based on a selection of different options, wouldn't -that- be cool? Maybe your character isn't a bomb-defusing expert so you have them cover their eyes with one hand and cut a wire at random. (Heck, if we wanna go cartoony maybe there's a chance that animation doesn't work -right- and your character gets zapped but the bomb is still defused. A Hyuck!)

 

Maybe in a level 1 mission you fight aliens. And your Superstrong Brute character Mr. Winvincible interacts with the mission glowie bomb by HURLING IT INTO THE SUN instead of trying to defuse it. Or you have to fight a bunch of pylons around a super-reactor in a starship to keep it from having enough speed to obliterate planet Earth when it crash-lands. But for every other function it's still just another door mission for a level 1 character. The NPCs hit you as level 1 characters. You hit them as a level 1 character. You know, like the Tutorial/Starting Area of DCUO.

 

Meanwhile over here some dude in a trenchcoat is being as Rorshach as he can manage and fighting some Mafia Thugs in a different door mission where they still disarm the bomb instead of chucking it into the sun or whatever. Still level 1. Just a different narrative scale.

 

20 levels later. Mr. Winvincible is still chucking bombs into the sun and stopping runaway trains by standing in front of them and gritting his teeth really hard as the "Glowie Interaction" for that mission. While Rorshabee's player is instead flipping the switch to force the train's brakes to go into "Magnetic Lock" mode or something else to stop them. At level 21 they decide to have a fight. They're both level 21 heroes and they hit each other like it. There's no mechanical difference between the character's power levels because it's a game and there's no Narrative Scale in PvP. Batman v Superman all over again.

 

In another 10 levels they're friends and sometimes they team together. Rorschabee goes to space to help Mr. Winvincible fight the Rikti off. (They're a stronger NPC Group, narratively, than the level 1 alien jerks that Winvincible fought 30 levels ago) Rorshabee disarms half the bombs the Rikti are planning to drop on Paragon while Mr. Winvincible flings the other half into the sun. 

 

Yeah. It doesn't make sense that Rorschabee doesn't get completely and utterly pasted by the first Rikti Rifle Blast that hits him. Batman survives that kinda shit too, though, so we apply some Handwavium. Maybe they missed. Maybe he has Kreeptonight in his belt which makes the blast not destroy him. At some point the narrative -has- to bend to the gameplay, but it doesn't need to invariably bend to the gameplay all the time forever.

 

At level 50, Rorshabee and Winvincible PvP again. They're both level 50 characters. They hit each other like level 50 characters. The PvP still has no narrative because it isn't a story it's two people beating each other and telling whatever story they want about it. Afterward Mr. Winvincible joins Rorshabee to help Back Alley Brawler (He's in a wheelchair, 80, and basically Oracle at this point) Regulate the drugs in Kings Row by flinging the vats of Superadine into the sun and punching some Skulls with all his cool superpowers but for handwavium's sake he's pulling his punches so as not to paste the street thugs 'cause he's a hero and not a jerk. Again, sometimes gameplay is more important than narrative but it doesn't have to be the winner of every single fight.

 

You get all the benefits of a game in which characters level up. You get to be a "World Class Hero" from level 1. You get to be a "Street Level Hero" at level 50. You can even start out as a 'Street Level Hero' who throws Bombs into the Sun and eventually decides to start doing some of the World Class Hero content when you get to 20 and -only- World Class Content after you hit 35. 

 

 

The players who want Street Heroes are happy. The players who want World Class heroes are happy. The players who want to start out as one scale and 'Work their way Up' to a higher scale are happy. 

 

Do you now understand my perspective that you can tell much more "Comic Relevant" stories in an MMO by letting the Narrative Scale exist separate from your character's level?

 

 

 

And yeah. There's no plausible explanation why the Snail one-shots people. No plausible explanation why the Tigers in Pandaria are -massively- stronger than the Tigers in Stranglethorn, either. But people tend to laugh about it and accept that it's just a matter of Game Mechanics trumping narrative 'cause it happens, -sometimes-. But it doesn't have to happen -all- the time. It doesn't have to be the default. That's all I'm saying.

 

[PaxArcana]

20 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Holy shit, dude. I'm... I just don't get how you are having such a hard time understanding this. I -get- your perspective. I'm saying that it is self-limiting.

No, you obviously don't get my "perspective".

CoX is a game, first and foremost.  Not a comic, not a novel.  And there are just some things that cannot be done within a multiplayer gamespace - no matter how cool the stories would be.  No matter how hard anyone might wish otherwise.

 

22 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Try to grasp mine.

I have.  Very well.  You want the game to support stories where a character never grows above "street level" heroism, and also support stories where characters grow to be solar-system-saving paragons.  And you aren't willing to use the tools already provided for that very thing, in the form of turning off XP before the "street level" hero's power outgrows the setting you want him to remain in.

 

What I've been trying, repeatedly, to tell you is: it just is not possible.  You might as well stare at a stream (in real life) and beg it to flow uphill; your results will be about the same.

25 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

In a Perfect CoH2 there would be different Narrative Scales.

And, again I tell you: this is physically impossible in an MMO.  You would need to have multiple separate games, sharing the setting but not the actual playspace.  Cosmic heroes and Street heroes would not be passing each other in the same zone, each headed for their own personal-narrative-scale missions.  Wish for it all you want, but IT JUST CANNOT BE DONE.  Again, water, uphill, same results.

28 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

No plausible explanation why the Tigers in Pandaria are -massively- stronger than the Tigers in Stranglethorn, either.

The Tigers in Pandaria are a good forty or fifty levels higher than the Tigers in Stranglethorn.

29 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Yeah. It doesn't make sense that Rorschabee doesn't get completely and utterly pasted by the first Rikti Rifle Blast that hits him. Batman survives that kinda shit too, though, so we apply some Handwavium. Maybe they missed. Maybe he has Kreeptonight in his belt which makes the blast not destroy him. At some point the narrative -has- to bend to the gameplay, but it doesn't need to invariably bend to the gameplay all the time forever.

What happen is, Rorchbee sidekicks up to Winvncible's level.

Because Winvincible has been levelling up steadily all along, and recently ding'd 50.

But Rorschabee's player wanted less Superman, and more Batman, so SHE TURNED OFF HER XP AT LEVEL 20.

 

It really is just that simple, Steam.

[Steampunkette]

28 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

No, you obviously don't get my "perspective".

CoX is a game, first and foremost.  Not a comic, not a novel.  And there are just some things that cannot be done within a multiplayer gamespace - no matter how cool the stories would be.  No matter how hard anyone might wish otherwise.

 

I have.  Very well.  You want the game to support stories where a character never grows above "street level" heroism, and also support stories where characters grow to be solar-system-saving paragons.  And you aren't willing to use the tools already provided for that very thing, in the form of turning off XP before the "street level" hero's power outgrows the setting you want him to remain in.

 

What I've been trying, repeatedly, to tell you is: it just is not possible.  You might as well stare at a stream (in real life) and beg it to flow uphill; your results will be about the same.

And, again I tell you: this is physically impossible in an MMO.  You would need to have multiple separate games, sharing the setting but not the actual playspace.  Cosmic heroes and Street heroes would not be passing each other in the same zone, each headed for their own personal-narrative-scale missions.  Wish for it all you want, but IT JUST CANNOT BE DONE.  Again, water, uphill, same results.

The Tigers in Pandaria are a good forty or fifty levels higher than the Tigers in Stranglethorn.

What happen is, Rorchbee sidekicks up to Winvncible's level.

Because Winvincible has been levelling up steadily all along, and recently ding'd 50.

But Rorschabee's player wanted less Superman, and more Batman, so SHE TURNED OFF HER XP AT LEVEL 20.

 

It really is just that simple, Steam.

You keep saying that it's "Not Possible" but I'm outlining how it could be done within the narratives of a single game space that Winvincible and Rorshabee both share. Repeating "It isn't possible" doesn't -make- it impossible. It doesn't actually change anything. You just do not understand my perspective. You're only viewing it through the idea that Gameplay Level = Narrative Level.

 

Do you know how I know you don't understand me? Because you're putting it back into the terms that you -do- understand. Terms that fit your explicit perspective and ignore mine. "Sidekicking" and "Turned off XP" instead of actually grasping that levels don't have to be 100% reflected within the narrative of the game or the shared game space. Because you're saying "The Pandaria tigers are higher level" and not considering how ridiculous a concept that actually is, narratively speaking. 

 

And the "Aren't willing to use the tools the game has" thing just tells me EVEN MORE that you're not reading what I'm writing. Like. AT ALL. I'm done repeating myself on this topic to someone who is going to continually talk down to me, thanks.

 

Honestly, I don't think I have the requisite skills to communicate the idea in a way that you will understand, at this point. So I'm just going to write this whole conversation off. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Steampunkette

[PaxArcana]

11 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

You keep saying that it's "Not Possible" but I'm outlining how it could be done within the narratives of a single game space

No, you aren't.

 

You're outlining a pipe-dream, "why can't we" scenario.

But you haven't explained how the systems, the parts "under the hood", would work.

 

IN YOUR SYSTEM, Rorschabee is on her own, playing solo.  And sees a bunch of alien-looking dudes she's never encountered before.  They show up as being her level .... so, how does she know she can't possibly fight them because they're meant for Winvincible to find fairly challenging?

 

Meanwhile, in the next zone over, Winvincible sees a bunch of Freakshow-looking villains - and he's never faced anything like them, he's been busting alien heads for fifty levels.  They show up as being his level .... so how does he know that they are worth no XP or IN for him, because they might as well be baby ducklings getting pushed into an alligator pond, compared to his power level?

 

And, hey, then there are the PvP zones.  What happens with Rorschabee runs across a villain PC in Siren's Call; it LOOKS like they are the same level.  How does she know if that's a fellow-street-level PC, or a Cosmic PC?  If there's no difference "because PvP zone" .... how does that work?  Are all the Cosmic heroes nerfed into being feeble kittens compared to their usual power level?  (I bet they'd LOVE that! [/sarcasm])  Or do the Street Heroes suddenly become Ultra-heroes/villains, able to juggle moons, instead?  (And, I bet they'd love that just as little.)

 

In a human-run game with multiple groups, each playing in a different real-world space at a different real-world time ... the sort of varied-power-level stuff you keep describing can be done (though it'd be a TON of work for the human GMs).

 

In a computer-run game, with everyone playing at the same time, in the same (virual) space ... and with everyone having the exact same advancement scheme and everyone reacing the level cap in whichever tier/scale/whatever they chose .... it can't be done.

20 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Do you know how I know you don't understand me? Because you're putting it back into the terms that you -do- understand.

No, I've been using those terms, because they are shared between us.  We both know how City of Heroes/Villains works.  Terms that refer to systems in the game, are terms that we both understand in the same way.  There's no need for me to re-invent the wheel, when there's already a stack of perfectly good ones sitting right next to me.

Specifically, look again at how you did not understand (or refused to accept) that within that rules set, Power Levels are a completely OBJECTIVE scale, and you absolutely could not have PL16 "street level" heroes and run a remotely plausible game.

So, yes.  I fell back on commonly understood terms from a mutually-known source.  Sue me.

 

Look at how badly my attempt to use a not-CoX example, DCA5 and/or M&M3, went.

[PaxArcana]

25 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Gameplay Level = Narrative Level.

Also, this:

Game Level = POWER Level

And in the Superhero genre, Narrative Scope flows from the character's level of personal power.

 

"Street level" heroes in the CoX universe are not 50th level.  Nor 40th level. Nor even 30th level.  They're in their teens, maybe edging into the low 20s.  Because those are the power levels appropriate for a "street level" Narrative Scope.

 

Superman doesn't spend his time stopping muggers.  Oh, he WILL, if he comes across one.  But he doesn't patrol every alley of Metropolis looking for them specifically and especially.  Because his personal power is so great, that it is best spent on threats only he, or those like him, can deal with.

Spiderman, OTOH?  Especially soon after a reboot?  Mostly looks after his own neighborhood, and the surrounding city.  He absolutely DOES patrol the streets and alleys specifically looking for muggers and similar low-level criminals.  Because that is what is most appropriate for his level of power, at that stage in his career.  He's not going to be taking down Galactus on his own - that's a job for the Fantastic Four.  He, instead, is going to be handling Kingpin and Sandman so that the FF can focus on those bigger threats[/i[, without being distracted by the low-grade riff-raff stealing purses and such.

 

Early-career Spiderman is level 10-20.  At that point, the FF are level 35+.

 

That's just how levels work in a game, Steam.

[Steampunkette]

21 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

IN YOUR SYSTEM, Rorschabee is on her own, playing solo.  And sees a bunch of alien-looking dudes she's never encountered before.  They show up as being her level .... so, how does she know she can't possibly fight them because they're meant for Winvincible to find fairly challenging?

 

Meanwhile, in the next zone over, Winvincible sees a bunch of Freakshow-looking villains - and he's never faced anything like them, he's been busting alien heads for fifty levels.  They show up as being his level .... so how does he know that they are worth no XP or IN for him, because they might as well be baby ducklings getting pushed into an alligator pond, compared to his power level?

 

And you wonder how I know you're not paying attention...

 

Because those Alien Looking dudes are her level Rorshabee can fight them. They give normal XP and they're the same challenge for her as they'd be for Winvincible at the same level (Barring AT and Power Choices). If she's level 20 and those aliens are level 20 then there's no problem. Boom. She fights. She probably wins unless she sucks at fighting them. 

 

Those Freakshow looking villains are the same level as Winvincible so he can fight them. They give normal XP and they're the same challenge for him as they'd be for Rorshabee at the same level (Barring AT and Power Choices).  If he's level 20 and those Freakshow are level 20 then there's no problem. Boom. He fights. He probably wins unless he sucks at fighting them.

 

Swap the names around and it's the same Winvincible fights the aliens and Rorshabee fights the Freaks and so long as they're even level there's no difference.

 

 

The divide in power level is NARRATIVE. STORY. Not -FUNCTION-. Not GAMEPLAY. 

 

The Gameplay level = Narrative level thing is how it works in -this- game. It's how it works in a lot of games. But it doesn't -have- to. This has been the thrust of my statements this ENTIRE TIME. You've been inventing the "But they wouldn't get XP!" or "She wouldn't win the fight!" stuff yourself. They're Strawmen for you to push over.

 

Consider this my hail mary pass.

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Yoru-hime]

Let me give it a try and see if we can find a little common ground amidst the shouting:

 

To keep it in COH terms, I could see a leveling tree with a main path growing ever bigger, faster, stronger like we have today, but branches off every ten levels or so. It won't perfectly cover what everyone wants (nothing ever will), but at least it creates some degree of tiers.

 

You spend most of your first levels getting your feet under you and doing local work leading up to about level 20 and your first big victories. At that point, you're given an option. You can keep going on to level 21 if you want to start increasing your scope to city-level threats, but if you want to spend your time being a neighborhood hero/villain like Spider-Man, at level 20 you're joining the neighborhood track. Your powers are thematically going to stay about where they are, which is appropriate to the enemies you're fighting. You still make regular gains (new technique, better fitness or new gadget) that fit with a neighborhood hero, becoming level 20+1, 20+2 and so on, but you're never going to reach cosmic power levels fighting street punks in your hometown, nor should you ever need to. Now the developers can design a reasonable neighborhood level villain encounter like the Vulture to fight say, level 20+7 heroes who have spent plenty of time on the streets.

 

That same hero can choose to switch tracks and keep leveling higher on the main track gaining national or planetary level fame and power, but when they go back to their old haunts, they naturally dial it down to prevent incidental damage. The high-powered suit you earned at level 45 stays in the closet for these missions.  Meanwhile, the hero that blitzed to 50 but never spent any time on the mean streets after they had the option to move on is still just level 20+0 on this track and isn't ready for the above encounter because he just isn't savvy enough to deal with 20+7 Vulture's tricks when he can't break out the big guns and start leveling entire buildings.

 

Same thing happens at 30 for city level heroes (Batman and Daredevil class villains would usually be waiting here) and at level 40 for national champions (Red Skull and Ultron come to mind here), each with their own side track letting them play on at that thematic level and making steady yet appropriate gains for that track. Global and cosmic level characters go on to 50 and beyond. They can step over to other smaller-scope tracks whenever they want, but in story terms, they're holding back on their powers for the safety of the locals and without practice, they may not be too skillful when doing that.

 

To be clear, a level 30+20 hero is still basically a very strong level 30, not level 50. No matter how good Daredevil is at fighting corporate toughs, he loses in a straight-up fight with Thanos every single time, as common sense tells us he should. If he wants to seriously fight at that level, he's going to have to go beyond the concept of a city-level hero. If the player doesn't want that for their character, they can keep working toward 30+21 and the next city-level encounter that does suit their favored style of story. There are parts of the content they've chosen not to use, but that doesn't mean that they've completely given up having a way to make progress.

 

This all still carries a real world consequence in that creating separate tracks splits your content and powers development teams' focus so everyone is going to be getting less game at their preferred level. Though really that's already the case when devs implement new content at various levels. It does create multiple progression tracks to go with it, though, adding complexity to managing game balance. There would be a main trunk to naturally blend the world together and work off of, with the option to hop about and play on all the tracks once you reach them if you so choose, be it a local hero briefly tasting the larger limelight or a grand champion getting back to basics and revisiting the old stomping grounds, so nothing should really feel like you're visiting someone else's version of game. 

 

Level both has objective meaning, but at the same time isn't everything. You can be more or less powerful in general, but at the same time more experience as a less-powered hero has its own irreplaceable value.

 

What do you think? Hey, if nothing else, you can both tear apart my ideas for a bit instead of each other... 😉

[Myrmidon]

Would an “Op Out” option be easier to add to either the P2W or Null the Gull?

[Steampunkette]

5 minutes ago, Yoru-hime said:

Let me give it a try and see if we can find a little common ground amidst the shouting:

 

To keep it in COH terms, I could see a leveling tree with a main path growing ever bigger, faster, stronger like we have today, but branches off every ten levels or so. It won't perfectly cover what everyone wants (nothing ever will), but at least it creates some degree of tiers.

 

You spend most of your first levels getting your feet under you and doing local work leading up to about level 20 and your first big victories. At that point, you're given an option. You can keep going on to level 21 if you want to start increasing your scope to city-level threats, but if you want to spend your time being a neighborhood hero/villain like Spider-Man, at level 20 you're joining the neighborhood track. Your powers are thematically going to stay about where they are, which is appropriate to the enemies you're fighting. You still make regular gains (new technique, better fitness or new gadget) that fit with a neighborhood hero, becoming level 20+1, 20+2 and so on, but you're never going to reach cosmic power levels fighting street punks in your hometown, nor should you ever need to. Now the developers can design a reasonable neighborhood level villain encounter like the Vulture to fight say, level 20+7 heroes who have spent plenty of time on the streets.

 

That same hero can choose to switch tracks and keep leveling higher on the main track gaining national or planetary level fame and power, but when they go back to their old haunts, they naturally dial it down to prevent incidental damage. The high-powered suit you earned at level 45 stays in the closet for these missions.  Meanwhile, the hero that blitzed to 50 but never spent any time on the mean streets after they had the option to move on is still just level 20+0 on this track and isn't ready for the above encounter because he just isn't savvy enough to deal with 20+7 Vulture's tricks when he can't break out the big guns and start leveling entire buildings.

 

Same thing happens at 30 for city level heroes (Batman and Daredevil class villains would usually be waiting here) and at level 40 for national champions (Red Skull and Ultron come to mind here), each with their own side track letting them play on at that thematic level and making steady yet appropriate gains for that track. Global and cosmic level characters go on to 50 and beyond. They can step over to other smaller-scope tracks whenever they want, but in story terms, they're holding back on their powers for the safety of the locals and without practice, they may not be too skillful when doing that.

 

To be clear, a level 30+20 hero is still basically a very strong level 30, not level 50. No matter how good Daredevil is at fighting corporate toughs, he loses in a straight-up fight with Thanos every single time, as common sense tells us he should. If he wants to seriously fight at that level, he's going to have to go beyond the concept of a city-level hero. If the player doesn't want that for their character, they can keep working toward 30+21 and the next city-level encounter that does suit their favored style of story. There are parts of the content they've chosen not to use, but that doesn't mean that they've completely given up having a way to make progress.

 

This all still carries a real world consequence in that creating separate tracks splits your content and powers development teams' focus so everyone is going to be getting less game at their preferred level. Though really that's already the case when devs implement new content at various levels. It does create multiple progression tracks to go with it, though, adding complexity to managing game balance. There would be a main trunk to naturally blend the world together and work off of, with the option to hop about and play on all the tracks once you reach them if you so choose, be it a local hero briefly tasting the larger limelight or a grand champion getting back to basics and revisiting the old stomping grounds, so nothing should really feel like you're visiting someone else's version of game. 

 

Level both has objective meaning, but at the same time isn't everything. You can be more or less powerful in general, but at the same time more experience as a less-powered hero has its own irreplaceable value.

 

What do you think? Hey, if nothing else, you can both tear apart my ideas for a bit instead of each other... 😉

Personally I wouldn't want that. I feel like it creates too much of a gameplay divide in order to reinforce a narrative divide. 

 

I think most players would just take the "Train to 50" and then feel cheated or jilted at level 20+1 'cause their powers got shelved. Meanwhile a "Dedicated Street" hero who gets to 20+30 or whatever nomenclature we create is still going to have to get to level 50 in order to participate in any form of End-Game system or content (Unless the Devs split their 'End Game Design Time' across all the tree branches.

 

It just makes more sense to me to decouple level from narrative and have different "Game Mechanicy" moments crop up than what we currently get.

5 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Would an “Op Out” option be easier to add to either the P2W or Null the Gull?

Probably P2W because they've already got the Opt-Out on Salvage drops and stuff on those.