First lvl 50 - where to begin with end game build?

[Meph]

Despite playing this game upon release, and revisiting it after CoV released, and after it went free to play I have only now just achieved my first level 50! I am almost entirely at a loss as to how to draft an end game build and slot it, let alone how to plan the enhancements/sets, and incarnates without making mistakes. I realize a post like this might seem like it should live in the scrapper forums, but my questions are less about min/maxing my specific scrapper build at the moment and more just about how not to make stupid mistakes with an end game build. Once I am certain I have the right abilities at the right levels with the right number of slots, and no superfluous abilities, I can worry about min/maxing.

 

I'm playing a Psi Melee / Dark Armor scrapper and here are a few random questions I have:

1. How do I know if I need 5 or 6 slots in an ability? I understand that you need 6 to get that set bonus, but I see so many people often just slotting 5 slots in what appear to be core abilities in their attack chain.

2. Is there a simple solution to slotting bread n butter abilities? I have somewhat of a grasp on ED (which wasn't even present when I first started playing), so I never put more than 3 slots in skills that only required a single enhancement type like build up, hasten or stamina when I was leveling. Is that still the case now that I'm 50 and using IO sets?

3. Should I plan a fresh lvl 50 build that's budget oriented (since I only have ~60mil inf) and functional that I can use to farm for a "best in slot" type of build? Or just go straight for the expensive build and chip away at it one piece at a time?

4. Am I crazy not taking a travel power? I feel like ninja run + sprint wasn't a bad way to get around, especially with temporary jet packs to get you vertical when you need it. And superspeed often seems like too much speed most of the time anyway.

5. I saw someone post a build with Combat Jumping AND Hover. Why would you do that? Is it worth it for the defense bonuses?

 

I have many more questions, but I'll post my build below and hopefully someone can school me on what I'm doing wrong already.

[Meph]

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.2
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Psionic Melee
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Psi Blade -- GldStr-Acc/Dmg(A), GldStr-Dam/Rech(5), GldStr-Dam/End/Rech(15), GldStr-Acc/End/Rech(15), GldStr-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(37), GldStr-%Dam(37)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- Empty(A), Empty(3), Empty(3), Empty(5)
Level 2: Telekinetic Blow -- Empty(A), Empty(37), Empty(39), Empty(39), Empty(39), Empty(40)
Level 4: Death Shroud -- Empty(A), Empty(21), Empty(21), Empty(23)
Level 6: Murky Cloud -- Empty(A), Empty(7), Empty(7), Empty(9), Empty(9), Empty(11)
Level 8: Psi Blade Sweep -- Empty(A), Empty(40), Empty(40), Empty(42), Empty(42), Empty(42)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- Empty(A), Empty(11), Empty(13), Empty(13)
Level 12: Concentration -- Empty(A), Empty(48), Empty(48)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Empty(A), Empty(17), Empty(17), Empty(19), Empty(19), Empty(23)
Level 18: Hasten -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Cloak of Darkness -- Empty(A), Empty(25), Empty(25), Empty(27), Empty(27), Empty(29)
Level 24: Tough -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Greater Psi Blade -- Empty(A), Empty(34), Empty(36), Empty(36), Empty(36)
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- Empty(A), Empty(29), Empty(31), Empty(31), Empty(31)
Level 30: Weave -- Empty(A), Empty(50), Empty(50)
Level 32: Mass Levitate -- Empty(A), Empty(33), Empty(33), Empty(33), Empty(34), Empty(34)
Level 35: Conserve Power -- Empty(A), Empty(43), Empty(45)
Level 38: Physical Perfection -- Empty(A), Empty(45), Empty(46)
Level 41: Oppressive Gloom -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- Empty(A), Empty(48)
Level 47: Assault -- Empty(A), Empty(50)
Level 49: Tactics -- Empty(A), Empty(45)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A), Empty(46), Empty(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A), Empty(43), Empty(43)
Level 50: Cardiac Boost 
------------

[gameboy1234]

Not sure what Meph was trying to say, but Mids is a good idea. Mids = the program he used to generate that. You want to look at IO Sets, and you want to stack as much of X on your build as you can, where X is something you already have and getting more will make you harder to kill or do lots more damage.

X is often things like:

1. Defense
2. Regeneration
3. Recharge

Recharge may seem counter-intuitive but if you have a really good power, getting enough recharge to make it permanent or nearly permanent will make your build much much better. Get Hasten, three slot it for recharge, then see how much extra global recharge you can get through IO Sets to start making those good powers be available much much more often.

[gameboy1234]

11 minutes ago, Meph said:

5. I saw someone post a build with Combat Jumping AND Hover. Why would you do that? Is it worth it for the defense bonuses?

Possibly:

 

1. Desperately trying to eek out as much Defense as possible.

2. Set mules.  A lot of very important IO Sets go in powers with Def, and it doesn't matter how much Def.  So these powers provide a place to put more Def Sets.

[gameboy1234]

14 minutes ago, Meph said:

4. Am I crazy not taking a travel power? I feel like ninja run + sprint wasn't a bad way to get around, especially with temporary jet packs to get you vertical when you need it. And superspeed often seems like too much speed most of the time anyway.

I'm a big fan of Super Speed + Super Jump, running both at the same time.  No such thing as "too much speed."

 

[nihilii]

Grats on hitting 50! :)

I wouldn't 5-slot anything part of my attack chain. Your build could go different ways as is (given the empty slots), but I'd remove one slot from Assault, one slot from Conserve Power and one to two slots from Physical Perfection to make sure Greater Psi Blade and Death Shroud are fully slotted (but again, many ways to skin a cat), and also add one slot to Hasten.

I have too many alts and all of them rely on Ninja Run for travel. It's really more than appropriate, either coupled with Sprint or by bunnyhopping thanks to Hurdle. Throw in the P2W Jump Pack/Steam Pack and mission transporter, and there's hardly any trouble keeping up with superspeedsters.
 

[Meph]

7 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

Possibly:

 

1. Desperately trying to eek out as much Defense as possible.

2. Set mules.  A lot of very important IO Sets go in powers with Def, and it doesn't matter how much Def.  So these powers provide a place to put more Def Sets.

In instances where these powers are taken as set mules, would you potentially never even use the power? Just using it to slot a set for its passive stats and set bonus?

Edited August 19, 2019 by Meph

[MunkiLord]

7 minutes ago, Meph said:

 

I'm playing a Psi Melee / Dark Armor scrapper and here are a few random questions I have:

1. How do I know if I need 5 or 6 slots in an ability? I understand that you need 6 to get that set bonus, but I see so many people often just slotting 5 slots in what appear to be core abilities in their attack chain.

2. Is there a simple solution to slotting bread n butter abilities? I have somewhat of a grasp on ED (which wasn't even present when I first started playing), so I never put more than 3 slots in skills that only required a single enhancement type like build up, hasten or stamina when I was leveling. Is that still the case now that I'm 50 and using IO sets?

3. Should I plan a fresh lvl 50 build that's budget oriented (since I only have ~60mil inf) and functional that I can use to farm for a "best in slot" type of build? Or just go straight for the expensive build and chip away at it one piece at a time?

4. Am I crazy not taking a travel power? I feel like ninja run + sprint wasn't a bad way to get around, especially with temporary jet packs to get you vertical when you need it. And superspeed often seems like too much speed most of the time anyway.

5. I saw someone post a build with Combat Jumping AND Hover. Why would you do that? Is it worth it for the defense bonuses?

1. That's largely going to depend on what set bonus you're after. Many of the best defense bonuses come from six slotting a set, and recharge is typically at five slots.

2. In general I try to get the damage to about 95%, give or take, and then prioritize other stats depending on what I need. For example a nuke I'm going to prioritize recharge over endurance, but a tier 1 attack I will likely do the opposite.

3. I'd frakenslot for now, and replace the "lesser" IOs as you acquire your final stuff. Things like Miracle +Recovery and Numina unique for Health are good ones to get early, as is the Scrapper ATO proc that gives you +50% Crit chance when it goes off. I'm also a big fan of putting the Guassian's chance for build up proc in your Build Up power. I've never played Dark Armor, but I do know you have a ton of toggles, so Miracle and Numina are good ones to start with. You can get them both for about 8 million combined if you're just a little patient.

4. No, you're good.

5. My guess is the person likely did it to squeeze out the final bit of defense needed to hit the soft cap. Taking both is not typical for end game builds looking to min/max.

[gameboy1234]

Just now, Meph said:

In instances where these powers are taken as set mules, would you potentially never even use the power? Just using it to slot a set for it's passive stats and set bonus?

Yup, I'd say in most cases (of a set mule) that's the idea.

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, Meph said:

In instances where these powers are taken as set mules, would you potentially never even use the power? Just using it to slot a set for it's passive stats and set bonus?

This is very possible if someone has both. But Combat Jumping is awesome and I leave it on all the time.

[Demon Shell]

The simplest answer is that, unless you're following a build someone else made for you (and unless their preference matches yours very closely), there is no way the next time you respec will be your last. So experiment.

 

Back during live, and not counting minor respecs that just moved a slot here or there, I probably respeced my two mains a dozen times each. That's not to say that you will come close to that, but it takes trial and error.

 

To be more direct, the first thing you do in a post incarnate CoX is unlock your Alpha and decide which one you want. Agility is a swiss-army knife and should probably be the first one you get if you don't know what you're doing. It will give you a boost to recharge, endurance recovery, and defense, and Dark Armor can use all 3 of those. If you decide you want a different one later, once you get going in incarnate content it's not that hard to switch from one T3 to another. Don't upgrade your Alpha to T4 until you're sure you know which one you want.

[MunkiLord]

Just now, Demon Shell said:

To be more direct, the first thing you do in a post incarnate CoX is unlock your Alpha and decide which one you want. Agility is a swiss-army knife and should probably be the first one you get if you don't know what you're doing. It will give you a boost to recharge, endurance recovery, and defense, and Dark Armor can use all 3 of those. If you decide you want a different one later, once you get going in incarnate content it's not that hard to switch from one T3 to another. Don't upgrade your Alpha to T4 until you're sure you know which one you want.

This is fantastic advice right here.

[Meph]

34 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

Agility is a swiss-army knife and should probably be the first one you get if you don't know what you're doing. It will give you a boost to recharge, endurance recovery, and defense, and Dark Armor can use all 3 of those.

Ok dang, I was pretty certain Cardiac was the way to go for me due to the fact that I've been chugging blue inspirations for the past 50 levels and would have 10+ toggles with the above build.

 

When it comes to endurance heavy builds, does the math work such that end mod >>> reduce end cost? I'm pretty unlearned when it comes to the resource economy.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Meph

[Demon Shell]

1 hour ago, Meph said:

Ok dang, I was pretty certain Cardiac was the way to go for me due to the fact that I've been chugging blue inspirations for the past 50 levels and would have 10+ toggles with the above build.

 

When it comes to endurance heavy builds, does the math work such that end mod >>> reduce end cost? I'm pretty unlearned when it comes to the resource economy.

It absolutely does not. Reduce End in an Alpha far out weights End Mod, since it not only reduces the cost of your toggles but all of your attacks as well.

 

My old Dark Armor even used Cardiac (and will again, given time). But he was a Brute and ran Darkest Night (which isn't available to Scrappers) on top of Dark Armor.

 

If you want to go with Cardiac, go ahead. It may wind up being the one you like the most. But I will tell you right now, looking at the power selection you posted and with how expensive Dark Armor is anyway, Cardiac isn't going to save you while running all toggles plus all leaderships. I don't think anything short of guzzling serums from P2W will. Even properly slotted and using Cardiac, you're looking at nearly 2 endurance a second from toggles alone. That's a fundamental issue.

[DSorrow]

4 hours ago, Meph said:

1. How do I know if I need 5 or 6 slots in an ability? I understand that you need 6 to get that set bonus, but I see so many people often just slotting 5 slots in what appear to be core abilities in their attack chain.

2. Is there a simple solution to slotting bread n butter abilities? I have somewhat of a grasp on ED (which wasn't even present when I first started playing), so I never put more than 3 slots in skills that only required a single enhancement type like build up, hasten or stamina when I was leveling. Is that still the case now that I'm 50 and using IO sets?

3. Should I plan a fresh lvl 50 build that's budget oriented (since I only have ~60mil inf) and functional that I can use to farm for a "best in slot" type of build? Or just go straight for the expensive build and chip away at it one piece at a time?

4. Am I crazy not taking a travel power? I feel like ninja run + sprint wasn't a bad way to get around, especially with temporary jet packs to get you vertical when you need it. And superspeed often seems like too much speed most of the time anyway.

5. I saw someone post a build with Combat Jumping AND Hover. Why would you do that? Is it worth it for the defense bonuses?

1. It's a judgment call, really. What benefit would that slot get you somewhere else and do you value that more than whatever it would get you as a 6th in your attack? With some sets there isn't much functional difference between slotting 5 or 6 pieces because of ED (for example, a superior Scrapper's Strike caps Damage and Recharge enhancement even without the Dam/Rech enh), so the 6th slot would be there just for a set bonus, a proc or just some enhancement values. In another power, you might be able to get a valuable set bonus or slot a universally useful enhancement such as -KB or LotG +Rech.
2. I generally start builds with 5-6 slots in abilities that want 3 or more enhancement categories maxed (see attacks: acc/end/rech/dam), 3-4 in abilities that want two and 1-2 in those that want just one. Two 50+5 generic IOs max out one enhancement value category so it's enough for stuff like Hasten or Stamina. Once this "default slotting" is done, I'll generally move around slots to chase set bonuses and add global IOs like Shield Wall +Res.
3. I would do something like that. A mix of cheap set IOs (you can find many uncommon recipes at less than 10k a piece) and generic IOs shouldn't cost you more than 5-10mil. Consider getting the enhancements between 30-40 for maximum cost effectiveness as, relative to lvl 50 enhancements, you'll get ~80% of the enhancement value at ~30% the crafting cost. 
4. No, not at all. Most of my builds take one because they have space for it and it's convenient, but I just hit level 50 on my Fortunata who uses Sprint + Ninja Run. I also had several characters on the official servers who didn't have a travel power.
5. I have both on one of my characters. I took CJ at level 49 because there wasn't anything I needed and in addition to the couple of points of Defense, it could hold a couple of useful global enhancements.

[DSorrow]

4 hours ago, Meph said:

When it comes to endurance heavy builds, does the math work such that end mod >>> reduce end cost? I'm pretty unlearned when it comes to the resource economy.

It depends. I would say usually (at least 90% of the time) it's the other way around, but it's not impossible for End Mod to be more valuable, or valuable enough. End Mod only boosts the powers that help your Recovery and for many characters the only power this applies to is Stamina, which in itself is pretty meager, whereas End Reduction applies to all your powers and is usually pretty substantial.

 

This is where we get to the it depends part. Basically when you're looking at Endurance economy, the one metric you should look at is Net Gain (or Loss) = Endurance Recovery - Endurance Consumption, where the latter includes your toggles and attacks. Base Endurance Recovery is 1.67 End/Sec, which is modified by Stamina (Base x 0.25) and other similar powers, which are again modified by End Mod. For example, Stamina slotted to +100% gives you 1.67 x 0.25 x (100%+100%) = 0.835 End/Sec. Typically the modifiable part of your End Recovery is 25%-55% depending on your powersets, so T4 Agility will give you around 1.67 x 0.55 x 30% = 0.28 End/Sec, maximum, though some characters might get more. 

 

Contrast this to your Endurance Consumption, which for most characters (in my experience) is between 4 to 6 End/Sec so Cardiac's benefit to you will be around 1/(1+0.5)-1/(1+0.8) = 0.83 End/Sec assuming an average of ~50% EndReduc enhancements before Alpha. So, Cardiac is definitely better in terms of improving your Endurance economy. However, to further complicate things we have to look at what the actual gap between your Recovery and Consumption is. That 0.28 might be able to plug it completely or to an extent it won't matter. The +Rech from Agility might also let you use abilities such as Conserve Power more often. On the other hand, the +Rech might also make you use your expensive powers more often causing a net negative.

 

TL;DR:

When in doubt, pick Cardiac if you have Endurance issues. The part of your Endurance gain Agility can modify is much smaller than the part of your Endurance consumption Cardiac can modify.

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, Meph said:

Level 2: Health -- Empty(A), Empty(46), Empty(46)

Add a Miracle Unique and a Numina’s Convalescence Unique to two of these slots on every character that you make. Preferred method is to get them at either the lowest level range of the sets or use an Attuned one of each.

 

Since this character is now 50, the level range on these two IOs only matters for set bonus purposes.

[Justaris]

You should also absolutely get a Theft of Essence: Chance for +End proc and slot it in Dark Regeneration.   This alone does a great deal to help with endurance management on Dark Armor characters. 

[Lusiphur Malache]

I am the King of bad choices when it comes to leveling a character.  If there's a mistake to make, I've made or am about too.  Respec recipes cost a million or so in the auction house, so make mistakes.  I decided that my lvl 37 corrupter needed Medicine, bought a respec and tried it out for a couple lvls and when it wasn't working out by 40 used an earned respec to lose it.  60 million is more influence than all my characters have so any mistake you make is easily fixable.

 

Decide what you want to be good at, single target or crowd control, long drawn out fight or over in a blink, or solo or group play.  Attack it with a plan and vengeance, if it works out, great, if not maybe ditch the plan and try again.

 

I can't offer technical expertise as after reaching 50 I unlocked and slotted Judgement, Interface, and Alpha in that order on my main.  I used to 5 or 6 slot the powers I used the most and take my chances on the rest.  Now I slot 1 every 10 levels if it is important and use any leftovers on what isn't important.

[Meph]

14 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

Even properly slotted and using Cardiac, you're looking at nearly 2 endurance a second from toggles alone. That's a fundamental issue.

I definitely don't disagree. Not having experience playing at the endgame, I'm still wondering if this sort of insanely endurance heavy build can be overcome by the massive amount of end redux and end recovery afforded by sets and incarnates. 

 

Are there any ball park values of theoretical max for endurance drain and/or endurance recovery? Or are there far too many variables to account for?

[Meph]

9 hours ago, Justaris said:

You should also absolutely get a Theft of Essence: Chance for +End proc and slot it in Dark Regeneration.   This alone does a great deal to help with endurance management on Dark Armor characters. 

I appreciate the DA specific tip! Does this make it so you can actually come out with a neg gain of endurance after using Dark Regeneration if it procs? Or is it a recovery over time effect?

[Justaris]

Generally the proc at least greatly improves the endurance cost of the power and will occasionally make it a net gain on endurance when used.     

[Meph]

12 hours ago, DSorrow said:

It's a judgment call, really. What benefit would that slot get you somewhere else and do you value that more than whatever it would get you as a 6th in your attack? With some sets there isn't much functional difference between slotting 5 or 6 pieces because of ED (for example, a superior Scrapper's Strike caps Damage and Recharge enhancement even without the Dam/Rech enh), so the 6th slot would be there just for a set bonus, a proc or just some enhancement values. In another power, you might be able to get a valuable set bonus or slot a universally useful enhancement such as -KB or LotG +Rech.

Thank you! This is very helpful, especially the Scrapper's Strike example.

PS: What is the Scrapper's Strike "critical hit bonus" anyway?

12 hours ago, DSorrow said:

I generally start builds with 5-6 slots in abilities that want 3 or more enhancement categories maxed (see attacks: acc/end/rech/dam), 3-4 in abilities that want two and 1-2 in those that want just one. Two 50+5 generic IOs max out one enhancement value category so it's enough for stuff like Hasten or Stamina.

This is the kind of thing I needed to know. Thank you very much.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Meph

[Meph]

12 hours ago, DSorrow said:

TL;DR:

When in doubt, pick Cardiac if you have Endurance issues. The part of your Endurance gain Agility can modify is much smaller than the part of your Endurance consumption Cardiac can modify.

Read the whole thing, and I appreciate the maths. Definitely have to see how my build shapes up before I can make an informed decision to take Agility > Cardiac. But I'm glad to see my assumption wasn't incorrect.

[Meph]

12 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Add a Miracle Unique and a Numina’s Convalescence Unique to two of these slots on every character that you make. Preferred method is to get them at either the lowest level range of the sets or use an Attuned one of each.

 

Since this character is now 50, the level range on these two IOs only matters for set bonus purposes.

Thank you for this advice. I was curious why people were slotting Health. Someone gifted me one of each of those so I'm getting a running start.

 

I understand your second point, but I'm still a bit confused by the mechanic as a whole. Is a level 25 set just as good as a level 50 set at level 50?