Add life steal to Savage Melee sets

[Galaxy Brain]

The bloodlust mechanic, or at least one power in the set, originally had some sort of life steal mechanism. Given the performance of the savage sets, would it be broken to put that back in a small manner?

[Leogunner]

What is the performance of Savage at? 

[Galaxy Brain]

Consensus seems that it is a bit on the lower end of melee, and the exhaustion mechanic puts it back a bit which seems odd. The text on a few abilities seems to refer to it having some sort of life steal or regen at some point in development. 

[Waypoint]

5 hours ago, Leogunner said:

What is the performance of Savage at? 

From personal experience, under-performing. Savage Leap (SM)/Feral Leap (SA) does mediocre damage. The PBAOE that Savage Melee gets, even at the expanded damage radius with the most stacks you can have, does extremely mediocre damage (I think the damage scale* is similar to Hot Feet from Fire Manipulation, last I checked). 

 

I played it on a Scrapper and Dominator. The Scrapper's damage output was very underwhelming, even for the amount of AOE you get from it. The mechanic was cool if you didn't take any of the powers that exhausted you. I think people have found a lot of use in Hemorrhage (something about the bleed being high), but other than that, it's very underwhelming.

 

*I'm aware AT scaling is different than power damage scaling.

[Leogunner]

Was just curious as I've seen people talking about the savage sets in IO builds but no complaints. I played it on Brute but with the all resists of elec armor and the lack of any mitigating effects except 1 KD, it felt like a race of who can get to the KO point of 0HP first, me or the huddle of mobs. I'd end up using rest alot to save my heal. 

 

I played Elec armor with elec melee many times and it had much better chances with its AoE KD, sleep, stun and END drain. 

[Sniktch]

Honestly, I think Savage overall suffers from the Exhaustion mechanic a lot more than it should, and Stalker Savage has even worse issues due to the DoTs messing with Placate and the ATIO Hide, and the leap being either a weak attack if you're in close or a bad way to start a fight for a Stalker if you're at max distance.  The set feels more END-heavy than it says it is on all ATs, and I think it's the constant up-and-down Exhaustion/Bloodlust cycle that does it.  No great ideas on fixes, sadly, just observations on what seems to make it lag so badly I've dropped two Savage Melee characters already.

[Galaxy Brain]

Tbh, the exhaustion mechanic makes me hesitant to take the powers that cause it outside of using them as openers... but then you dont get as much bang for your buck 😕

 

If savage had way better effects in the exhaustion attacks and/or some sort of constant sustain as you get bloodlust it may not be the best damage but it would offer something very unique with a DoT + HoT.

[Steampunkette]

As someone who loves Savage Assault on her Dominator: 

 

You should never be exhausted.  Pop your stacks at 3 or 4, guys. That's how it's meant to be played. The ring is misleading because it's a warning rather than a queue to use that power. 

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

As someone who loves Savage Assault on her Dominator: 

 

You should never be exhausted.  Pop your stacks at 3 or 4, guys. That's how it's meant to be played. The ring is misleading because it's a warning rather than a queue to use that power. 

That's bad design, then. 

 

But I tried that too and for me, it didn't change the fact the set has no mitigating effects nor are the bonuses from blood stacks (the discount, and recharge bonus) much compromise for that. Also, you don't get different effects for partial blood stacks, only max. Also, I don't understand why Blood Thirst has such an annoyingly long cast time and can be wasted partially if used while exhausted. 

 

I mentioned in another thread, changes to help the set would be :

• Shorten exhaust time from 12sec to 6-8sec
• Blood thirst should remove exhaustion and make you immune to exhaustion for its duration. Possibly increase duration and recharge as well. 
• Give the rest of the non-consumer skills some bonuses either for having bigger stacks or when used with no stacks or during exhaustion. 
• Instead of the one above, improve the effects when using consumer skills during stacks/max stacks. 
• Give Hemorrhage a 100% KU

This is also a problem with psi melee but that only offers extra damage /mez but you can't control when you get locked out... It's a bonus with a strict timer. 

 

Savage, on the other hand, seems to want to grant you bonuses for certain situations but then it's a lie and actually punishment? I'm sorry, that's dumb. Might be a different story if it shined in some area besides animations. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Leogunner

[Leogunner]

Another thought that is more in line with the OP, if adding a HoT effect to all powers that grant stacks, the idea could be:

• you only get the HoT if you strike a target and cause the DoT. 
• AND you would gain a blood stack. 
• BUT if you have full blood stacks, that is considered "wouldn't have gotten a stack" 
• ALSO, if your in the exhausted state, that's considered "would have gotten a stack" 

You don't want to be exhausted unless you just want to ensure you get all possible healing. You want to avoid exhaustion to keep the bonus rech/discount rolling.

 

There. Now you have 2 sides of a coin, with their own advantages and disadvantages. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Leogunner

[AkuTenshiiZero]

5 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

As someone who loves Savage Assault on her Dominator: 

 

You should never be exhausted.  Pop your stacks at 3 or 4, guys. That's how it's meant to be played. The ring is misleading because it's a warning rather than a queue to use that power. 

This is what I do, but it is still not the "correct" way to play.  It's a bandaid for a bad mechanic, or at the very least a misleading design.  The powers which run on stacks clearly state that "at 5 stacks" they are more powerful, implying that the 5th stack is worth more than stacks 1-4.  Also, the circle around your power icons has ALWAYS in EVERY set indicated a good thing, not a "warning."  These are all bad, misleading signals if the intent was to punish the player for hitting 5 stacks.  In any case, I don't see any other sets like Street Justice or Water Blast being gimped for using max stacks, it shouldn't feel like a mistake to do the same with Savage Melee.

[Leogunner]

Just now, AkuTenshiiZero said:

This is what I do, but it is still not the "correct" way to play.  It's a bandaid for a bad mechanic, or at the very least a misleading design.  The powers which run on stacks clearly state that "at 5 stacks" they are more powerful, implying that the 5th stack is worth more than stacks 1-4.  Also, the circle around your power icons has ALWAYS in EVERY set indicated a good thing, not a "warning."  These are all bad, misleading signals if the intent was to punish the player for hitting 5 stacks.  In any case, I don't see any other sets like Street Justice or Water Blast being gimped for using max stacks, it shouldn't feel like a mistake to do the same with Savage Melee.

If we're to go off of how the skills are on the Paragonwiki page, the "correct" way to play is to use the max blood stacks/exhaustion feature is on an "as needed" basis depending on advantageous circumstances.  Like, if mobs are huddled, it might be a positive use to use the increased radius of Rending Flurry or the instant recharge feature of Shred for a double cone.  Or if you needed it, pop Blood Thirst for a side of healing to keep you in the game.  Then there's Hemorrhage for STs if the scale was made decent enough to want to use at max stacks.

 

There were meant to be options...but now it's just increased radius and damage for Flurry and increased damage and DoT duration for Hemorrhage...mind you, the original intent would have had blood stacks giving you +dmg in the first place instead of +rech so there's also that.  Then there's also the fact that Blood Thirst live is a watered down Build up clone with a longer animation which likely doesn't come close to the bonus that blood stacks likely originally offered (I'd probably pin it at under Follow up level so probably around +25% or +5% per blood stack).  Blood Thirst has a lower damage buff on live too (35% dmg I think...compared to the 80% of BU...I want to say the duration is slightly longer for Blood Thirst though but that only barely makes up for it's animation time...)

 

I think it might be possible to incorporate at least the healing from Blood Thirst's original incarnation...curious how yall think it might fit in though without "Re-Un-Cottage Rule"ing it...

[Waypoint]

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Pop your stacks at 3 or 4, guys. That's how it's meant to be played. The ring is misleading because it's a warning rather than a queue to use that power. 

 

If you have 5 stacks of Blood Frenzy while activating this power, its radius is greatly increased,
but causes you to become Exhausted for a short time. While exhausted you cannot gain Blood Frenzy.

 

Rending Flurry makes use of max stacks for huge radius. It's ideal to use max stacks with this power.

[Steampunkette]

3 hours ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

This is what I do, but it is still not the "correct" way to play.  It's a bandaid for a bad mechanic, or at the very least a misleading design.  The powers which run on stacks clearly state that "at 5 stacks" they are more powerful, implying that the 5th stack is worth more than stacks 1-4.  Also, the circle around your power icons has ALWAYS in EVERY set indicated a good thing, not a "warning."  These are all bad, misleading signals if the intent was to punish the player for hitting 5 stacks.  In any case, I don't see any other sets like Street Justice or Water Blast being gimped for using max stacks, it shouldn't feel like a mistake to do the same with Savage Melee.

I feel like it IS the correct way to play.

 

i24 added Bio Armor and Savage Melee. Both create some significant choices for you to make, and those choices aren't without a cost. You can play Bio Armor without Adaptation, or only ever use the Endurance version... But the Offensive Adaptation gives you a juice Damage Boost at a cost of defenses. And the Defensive Adaptation is the same in reverse.

 

Savage melee makes you choose when to use "Finishers" or even -whether- to use them. That Savage Dominator I mentioned? I often sit at 5 stacks of Frenzy without touching any of my spenders because I like the Recharge boost and the Endurance Discount. They both play well into a Click-Power heavy character and help me get Domination back up, faster, to boot.

 

That said... Sure. Hit me with some Life-Steal. I'll eat it up. (Pun intended!)

[Haijinx]

Pretty sure the reason there is no mitigation in Savage Melee is that it does a lot of ST and decent AOE damage.  So, much like Fire Melee it gets no extra effects beyond DOT

 

That's before you add in the End discount AND the recharge bonus.   

 

So a self heal would probably be unbalanced.

 

 

[Leogunner]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Pretty sure the reason there is no mitigation in Savage Melee is that it does a lot of ST and decent AOE damage.  So, much like Fire Melee it gets no extra effects beyond DOT

 

That's before you add in the End discount AND the recharge bonus.   

 

So a self heal would probably be unbalanced.

 

 

Heh, Fire Melee absolutely blows Savage out of the water with regards to damage.  Heck, Katana blows it out of the water.

 

They also gets a proper BU.  I'm actually surprised you'd compare the two.

 

And Savage does get mitigation.  It's just crap.  I'd actually wager Savage doesn't beat many sets in most regards except mitigation where Fire Melee has 0.  It's not as efficient as Claws and I'd wager it's pretty low in that regards too (efficiency being a measure of kill speed and endurance consumption).  It's utility is middle of the road (20% recharge and 23% endredux when you have max stacks and a teleport...that's it) probably beating a few sets like Battle Axe (although chain KD is as good as a hold on a boss), Fire melee (just damage).

 

It probably beats Energy Melee, I suppose.  But then I'm not really a min/maxer.  I like niche sets as many as any other...Savage hasn't shown me anything.  I even paired it with something that needs and amplifies its benefits and it still ranged from meh to frustrating...also, why don't blood stacks refresh?  I can be sitting at five stacks while slapping a group of mobs and suddenly 3 stacks drop off at the same time.  Lol come on!

 

Haven't tried Savage Assault.  Might be different.

[Sniktch]

The reason Bloodlust stacks don't refresh is because nothing in the game actually refreshes, aside Vengeance and even then I could be wrong about that; been a while since I used Vengeance on anyone.  If you look at Broadsword/Katana/Claws for example, Parry, Divine Avalanche, and Follow-Up don't refresh, they just add another stack.  The reason you get the behavior noted is because Bloodlust has a max-stacks cap, just like Street Justice Combo and Water Blast Tidal; when you hit the max, you generate no more until you're not at the cap.

 

...actually, that might be one reason the set feels so off - quite frequently, you generate multiple stacks at once, and they all fall off at the same time.  Sudden big swings in a stack-based gimmick, rather than slow-build, slow-fall, always feel funky; doubly so when it's recharge and END costs that are affected.

 

Honestly, my 'feels' about Savage is Street Justice and Dual Blades had a baby, foisted it off on Fiery Melee to raise, and the kid learned the wrong thing from each 'parent'.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Sniktch said:

The reason Bloodlust stacks don't refresh is because nothing in the game actually refreshes, aside Vengeance and even then I could be wrong about that; been a while since I used Vengeance on anyone.  If you look at Broadsword/Katana/Claws for example, Parry, Divine Avalanche, and Follow-Up don't refresh, they just add another stack.  The reason you get the behavior noted is because Bloodlust has a max-stacks cap, just like Street Justice Combo and Water Blast Tidal; when you hit the max, you generate no more until you're not at the cap.

 

...actually, that might be one reason the set feels so off - quite frequently, you generate multiple stacks at once, and they all fall off at the same time.  Sudden big swings in a stack-based gimmick, rather than slow-build, slow-fall, always feel funky; doubly so when it's recharge and END costs that are affected.

 

Honestly, my 'feels' about Savage is Street Justice and Dual Blades had a baby, foisted it off on Fiery Melee to raise, and the kid learned the wrong thing from each 'parent'.

This gave me an idea... what if you build up stacks, then only at 5 you could use Blood Thirst and enter a "Super Mode" for a time? During which you get the super-moves + other benefits like healing.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Haijinx]

9 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Heh, Fire Melee absolutely blows Savage out of the water with regards to damage.  Heck, Katana blows it out of the water.

 

They also gets a proper BU.  I'm actually surprised you'd compare the two.

 

And Savage does get mitigation.  It's just crap.  I'd actually wager Savage doesn't beat many sets in most regards except mitigation where Fire Melee has 0.  It's not as efficient as Claws and I'd wager it's pretty low in that regards too (efficiency being a measure of kill speed and endurance consumption).  It's utility is middle of the road (20% recharge and 23% endredux when you have max stacks and a teleport...that's it) probably beating a few sets like Battle Axe (although chain KD is as good as a hold on a boss), Fire melee (just damage).

 

It probably beats Energy Melee, I suppose.  But then I'm not really a min/maxer.  I like niche sets as many as any other...Savage hasn't shown me anything.  I even paired it with something that needs and amplifies its benefits and it still ranged from meh to frustrating...also, why don't blood stacks refresh?  I can be sitting at five stacks while slapping a group of mobs and suddenly 3 stacks drop off at the same time.  Lol come on!

 

Haven't tried Savage Assault.  Might be different.

Hear people say that the damage is on the high side as well?  Including the DPS/DPA comparison sheet in the scrapper forum. 

 

That seems like conflicting with information in this thread.  If it is underperforming damage-wise then it should be adjusted, since the intent seemed to be along the lines of Fire, with DOT being its main secondary effect.

 

Of course it seems like both cant be right?  If the DPA is as good as some claim,  maybe the damage is weighted too far on the dot end vs the initial hit end.  

 

[Leogunner]

50 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Hear people say that the damage is on the high side as well?  Including the DPS/DPA comparison sheet in the scrapper forum. 

Can you link it? 

 

I've actually heard scrappers say it had mediocre damage. I'd figure for scrappers and stalkers that crits would weigh their damage better since it should apply all an attack's damage +dot would be applied instantly but at best I've heard nearly nothing which you'd think would be unheard of for a new set. 

[Galaxy Brain]

For stalkers, I believe hemorrhage is bugged where if you crit it applies all the bonus DoT at once as a super crit.. but that's one power on one AT.

[Galaxy Brain]

After some thought on the matter, I think that an actual weak point of the set is Blood Thirst.

 

Currently, Blood Thirst grants you 5 stacks of Blood Frenzy and a boost to damage and tohit for 15 sec. Both values are less than Aim/BU though you get +5 sec of the buff. As is, this lets you skip the exhausted portion of a finisher in the set and then use another finisher right after.

 

The restored Blood Frenzy doesn't really do much aside from let you fire off the PBAoE or Hemorrhage right away, which isn't too strong since it makes you exhausted anyways. And ~35% damage buff for 15sec does not match the 80%~100% for 10 sec of Build Up, at 15 sec you would think it would be 50~65% to match. Instead, what if Blood Thirst was converted into a sort of "Beast Mode" where it is only available at 5 stacks of Blood Frenzy, and once activated keeps you at 5 stacks for 30 seconds with a 3-4 minute recharge. While active, the PBAoE and Hemorrhage will always be their super forms, you maintain a 35% damage buff + the ToHit values, and if you would normally get a bloodlust stack you instead heal yourself. Once the "Beast Mode" ends, you become exhausted for the current amount of time. The two spenders in the set would no longer make you exhausted on use, but instead just spend your stacks as it takes some time to build them anyways and that feels fitting for the wait. 

 

Thoughts? 

[Galaxy Brain]

On 8/19/2019 at 11:26 AM, Leogunner said:

What is the performance of Savage at? 

As of testing on the SO level, it is fairly middle of the road. 

 

It lacks mitigation outside of a single-target knockdown and killing quickly sometimes. The +Recharge from stacks can be great on some sets with self heal clicks / general click powers, but using the powers in Savage "as intended" locks you out of that bonus for 12 seconds....

 

Playing in a controlled environment in the Scrapper thread, it seems the best option is to:

 

1. Savage Leap to start and get Blood Frenzy Stacks fast
2. Fight a bit and then use the PBAoE or Hemorrhage depending on the threats
3. Use Blood Lust ASAP to get stacks back and get +DMG and Rech
4. This is where it gets weird.... you could either double-dip and throw out another strong PBAoE or Hemorrhage and *lose* your bonuses.... or you could just hold onto the stacks and be stuck without your best AoE or ST attack
   1. Savage Leap in this scenario feels wasted if you are not getting bonus stacks either, and the long recharge makes you want to save it to boost stacks fast
   2. Option 1 is to spend your... spenders again ASAP and do a bit more output but then still be stuck in exhaustion
   3. Option 2 is to not use those 2 powers for the duration of Blood Lust and then wait till you have 4 stacks so you are not exhausted, which I do not have data on which is worse....

 

In my testing, I found that the max power spenders did not *feel* too impactful from fight to fight, not like with Staff or Street Justice being direct comparisons. With those sets, it is very obvious what the stacked bonus does when you spend it and there is no downside to using your spenders.

 

With Savage, its not like Hemorrhage does 5% of the enemy's Max HP per DoT at 5 stacks or Rending Flurry deals x2 damage in x2 the radius / targets to make the exhausted effect necessary IMO. If they had more output at max stacks (Such as, you heal for the damage dealt or something....) then I don't think anybody would mind the downside.

[Frostweaver]

Not sure about the performance on scrappers, but On Brutes it's pretty nice. You can sorta 'skip' blood thirst due to it having an almost negligible effect on your actual damage output. 33% is like..1/20th of our damage cap? And, when you are rolling at High fury, the frenzy stacks build and roll off fairly easily, with only the occasional 'accidental' exhaustion.

Damage wise, it's a lot like firey melee with better AOE and it's cone can slot Achilles heel procs, with a bit less ST. that makes it a decent farmer.

Still, blood frenzy SHOULD add a damage boost. Or even a proc bleeding effect to all attacks or something. A heal? Meh. Not willing to give up the aoe or try to figure out some obscure complicated way to use it.