Questions about Demon/Thermal.

I saw Dixa mentioning the tankyness of demons/thermal and rolled my 28th alt to give it a go... and I think I may finally have struck gold. Being able to unleash the pets to do damage and focus on keeping the team up is being a good combo that is keeping me more entertained than everything I've done. It also starts early.

That said it's completely outside my usual choices. I have no defenses to softcap, no perma hasten to desperately chase after to perma Chrono Shifts and etc.

So, Tactics, Maneuvers, worth picking up? My guys aren't defense and neither am I.  Will I be a bad person if I skip Forge? It's 'only' 30% damage and doing it every 20 seconds will get old fast. I didn't pick Thaw, bad idea? I did pick Power of the Phoenix, but only used it twice. Still, it's there if it becomes needed?

What should I be building for? Personal tankyness to not be made out of glass? My secondary gives nothing so I'm starting from zero which makes me think I won't have meaningful numbers.

I *really* want Bonfire with the KB>KD Io for the extra mitigation of KDs and some little bit of extra damage. I don't need Power-Boost so it should be alright, yeah. Plus, thematic!

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you can softcap smash/lethal easy. get high enough with the others that it's not an issue for most content because you will not be taking provoke. av's will be cycling targets between you and the pets and while usually I have hasten on auto fire, I toggle warmth to auto fire and manually control hasten and everything else during an AV fight. dropped a +3 black swan set to AV without losing a pet and she was down in about a minute and a half. ghost widow is a jerk and you can't stop her randomly killing a minion with her auto hit hold from hell now and then. (this all on test, I have not levelled up my demons/thermal on live yet as i'm still testing other combinations I've always wanted to try on Justin)

I wasted some time in a spreadsheet. this is what they end up with, all 6 io's and stuff.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EqJKDLHED-1QLzqkzNdcwVbS15ZQ9pYyrqmJPLazR-A/edit?usp=sharing

the prince is surprisingly squishy, but he has defenses the others do not.

Nice build Dixa rolling it

You're a (demon) prince, Dixa, and very patient with random people on the internet. Thanks again!

you're never going to find the perfect mm build for all content. thugs and bots with traps, time and ff melt to mobs with tohit buffs and there is a mission in the maria Jenkins arc that is filled with mobs that debuff defense and have targeting drones. they actually killed my dark/staff tanker who is normally unkillable (it was set to 4/8 though).

demons/thermal wrecks av's but on +3. even with perma -500% regen on a +4 they can't do enough damage to break the regen on nightstar without lore pets. on +3 she melts.

so far none of the maria Jenkins av's have been a real issue. only issue would be a giant group of crey - too much energy damage. or a giant group of carnies - too much psi damage.

I have tried and tried for years to find that perfect, can do it all setup and it just does not exist in this game especially for masterminds. but this demons/thermal is pretty close.

I was playing with a demons/nature as that secondary only gives up a little bit by way of resists (like 4 points) to thermal, but the healing is not actually as good. regrowth takes 10s to do it's full healing vs. spamming warmth and cauterize. the absorb is good but it takes a lot of recharge just to get the cd to 1 minute and perma overgrowth is over 210% recharge needed which again is hard to do without sacrificing your defenses. it would be a better teaming combo cause forge sucks.

Dixa, the perfect MM build is simple:

More than one MM.

:D

Have a good computer (easier now, than it was before Sunset) and bring a full team of MMs.

Back before Sunset, I was on a Strike Force (first Respec, maybe?) where fully half of us were MMs; not only did we tear through that sucker like crap through a goose with diarrhea, we did it while the rest of the team just stood back and watched (with out blessings, mind).  All different secondaries, two Robots, one Ninja, and one Zombie, IIRC.  It was glorious!

Dixa, the perfect MM build is simple:

 

More than one MM.

 

:D

 

Have a good computer (easier now, than it was before Sunset) and bring a full team of MMs.

 

Back before Sunset, I was on a Strike Force (first Respec, maybe?) where fully half of us were MMs; not only did we tear through that sucker like crap through a goose with diarrhea, we did it while the rest of the team just stood back and watched (with out blessings, mind).  All different secondaries, two Robots, one Ninja, and one Zombie, IIRC.  It was glorious!

I find boxing exhausting, but if im going to do it it will be with a brute and support characters to make the brute unkillable.

this was one of the most annoying av's ive ever faced. fighting at +2. pulled out lore pets at the end due to the annoyance factor making the fight longer. Watch and you will see what I mean.

Didn't lose a single pet though even though this av does energy/smashing, and energy is the weakest resist next to psi on this setup.

this is the build i'm going to settle on. corruption is nice for ranged pulling, additional -resists, a spot for a purple set for another 10% recharge and is something to do on normal packs. on normal packs unless i'm fighting carnies the pets don't take much damage.

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Thank for the build Dixa. This topic is feeding my altism.  ::)

since nobody ever does this with this AT I took my Justin char to the rikti pylon.

I haven't made the changes I plan to with live, picking up corruption and dropping phoenix. this is also fully tier 4 incarnate - t4 musculature, t4 ageless, t4 assault (double hit), t4 degenerative. no lore pets used.

149 seconds (2:29), 385.18 dps. I'm actually quite happy. I expected worse given how long it can take an mm to drop a +3 or +4 av vs. scrappers and stalkers without lore pets.

as this is not a defense setup, the pets get knocked back a lot. the demon prince was stuck in ragdoll for a bit too after a knockback. the damage potential could have been a LOT higher. I have a feeling a softcapped ninja/time or beast/kin even with just one target for fulcrum would wreck this thing provided you don't lose any pets during the test.

added beasts/time, same incarnates. one or two were knocked away and one nearly died but much higher uptime on target and lower -regen from the set. 2:59 for 342 dps

thugs/time same incarnates. the tier 1's were knocked around a bit but nobody got stuck in ragdoll like demons. almost lost the tier 1's several times it was hairy. 2:21, 399.79 dps.

both beasts/time and thug/time technically had 100% uptime on achilles heel. demons/thermal only has achilles heel in melt armor with a cooldown far longer than it's duration, but the toxic demonling and hellfire demon also apply -20% resist each.

so given how much the demons were being knocked away and the issue with the prince being stuck in ragdoll, the -500% regen really made the difference there.

Hey Dixa, I appreciate all of your posts and it made me want to roll a demon/thermal so I could try something different from the thugs/traps and thugs/poison I had on live. How is the AoE on demons? My thugs could solo +4 AVs but if I tried to go x8 they'd get murdered from cascading defense failures. I like the idea of going resistance with the AoE heal on thermal as that was my main complaint with thugs - they were "tough" until an attack connected then they'd all drop.

Can you roll things like +4/x8 with demons/thermal? Even if it's not the most efficient I'd like to know if they can handle that kind of pressure.

Demons don’t have very good aoe. What they do have is mostly short range cones. Thugs and robots are the aoe sets.

They can do 4/8 but crey with their incessant knock back and anything with a lot of psi are out of the question. Actually I find 4/8 in general annoying on mm as only kin can keep the pets from being flung all over which frequently gets them stuck flopping like fish on railings and what not.

Mm def need tools to help with pets being Knocked around. No other at has as many hard counters in pve as the mastermind.

this was one of the most annoying av's ive ever faced. fighting at +2. pulled out lore pets at the end due to the annoyance factor making the fight longer. Watch and you will see what I mean.

 

Didn't lose a single pet though even though this av does energy/smashing, and energy is the weakest resist next to psi on this setup.

 

 

this is the build i'm going to settle on. corruption is nice for ranged pulling, additional -resists, a spot for a purple set for another 10% recharge and is something to do on normal packs. on normal packs unless i'm fighting carnies the pets don't take much damage.

 

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Dixa, do you have more of a starter set build? Things like superior command of the MM, SBA etc are super rare, super expensive purple IO's. For a new 50, how would you slot with more affordable IO sets to start?  Thank you

Also, for demon/time which alpha slot would you suggest?

Demons don’t have very good aoe. What they do have is mostly short range cones. Thugs and robots are the aoe sets.

 

They can do 4/8 but crey with their incessant knock back and anything with a lot of psi are out of the question. Actually I find 4/8 in general annoying on mm as only kin can keep the pets from being flung all over which frequently gets them stuck flopping like fish on railings and what not.

 

Mm def need tools to help with pets being Knocked around. No other at has as many hard counters in pve as the mastermind.

Technically, Mercs are also an AoE set. It's just that their damage is so garbage it doesn't matter.

this was one of the most annoying av's ive ever faced. fighting at +2. pulled out lore pets at the end due to the annoyance factor making the fight longer. Watch and you will see what I mean.

 

Didn't lose a single pet though even though this av does energy/smashing, and energy is the weakest resist next to psi on this setup.

 

 

this is the build i'm going to settle on. corruption is nice for ranged pulling, additional -resists, a spot for a purple set for another 10% recharge and is something to do on normal packs. on normal packs unless i'm fighting carnies the pets don't take much damage.

 

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Dixa, do you have more of a starter set build? Things like superior command of the MM, SBA etc are super rare, super expensive purple IO's. For a new 50, how would you slot with more affordable IO sets to start?  Thank you

 

Also, for demon/time which alpha slot would you suggest?

for any fresh mm i always take one or two attacks from the primary until i get the level 26 pet, then i respec out of them to my final build - with or without set io's.

prices are rather consistent for the ato's and any purple sets, so i do recommend you make a spines/fire farming brute. it power levels itself to 50 in about 15 hours of playtime with no io sets.

alpha depends. time is end hungry and vulnerable to cc. if you are getting clarion, then get the alpha with the end reduction (NOT the one that increases the effectivness of end mods). if you are going agless, get the 45% dmg musculature.

I realize it may not be ideal in a min/max world but one of the main draws to demons for me was the whip attacks, I took all 3 and want to keep them.

I am thinking thunderstrike 6 PC in corruption but I'm not sure how to slot the other 2.

I did what you did with 4 slots in hell on Earth and the 4 IOs you used.

As for my 3 demons, I'm not sure how to slot them. Purple or attuned sets are not an option for me. I think I have about 20 mill all total. Any advice on that front would be appreciated.

I did take musculature alpha and will go right which will give me bonus to augment damage and the debuffs found in time.

I realize it may not be ideal in a min/max world but one of the main draws to demons for me was the whip attacks, I took all 3 and want to keep them.

 

I am thinking thunderstrike 6 PC in corruption but I'm not sure how to slot the other 2.

 

I did what you did with 4 slots in hell on Earth and the 4 IOs you used.

 

As for my 3 demons, I'm not sure how to slot them. Purple or attuned sets are not an option for me. I think I have about 20 mill all total. Any advice on that front would be appreciated.

 

I did take musculature alpha and will go right which will give me bonus to augment damage and the debuffs found in time.

anyone and everyone should just make a spines/fire brute. it powerlevels itself and needs no sets to farm just a tray full of purple inspirations. this is how I make my money, sure as hell not with masterminds who are terrible at farming.

Hi Dixa, 

First off: That Video is Amazing!

I came here looking for a support build, because Demon/Thermal suits my Theme but what you did is beyond my expectations!

I would really like to go for your build, but the Pines v2.23 gives a error code when i try to import it.

Could you tell me the Version you used?

As mentioned by Dixa, I also have a spines/fire brute that I use for farming.  I love the MM's so I rolled this build and it's really great.   It's only lvl 31 so far, and I noticed that the pets are all capped on fire resist.  So, I decided to try farming him.  The only thing to watch is the number of mobs.  I found that I could farm at +2/3 with the lvl 31 MM and it was pretty fun.  +2/4 and it gets hard to keep everything clumped up for healing.  Maybe someone with a complete build could try +4/3 and see how that goes.

On 6/19/2019 at 12:24 PM, Dixa said:

Demons don’t have very good aoe. What they do have is mostly short range cones. Thugs and robots are the aoe sets.

 

They can do 4/8 but crey with their incessant knock back and anything with a lot of psi are out of the question. Actually I find 4/8 in general annoying on mm as only kin can keep the pets from being flung all over which frequently gets them stuck flopping like fish on railings and what not.

 

Mm def need tools to help with pets being Knocked around. No other at has as many hard counters in pve as the mastermind.

They don't have big AoE but they all have plenty of it. 5 breath attacks, a 130 degree 60ft arc from the prince, a 10 and a 15 radius ranged attack, a persistent Aura and a PBAoE. And a whip attack. Also consider 6 sources.