Neiska

Hold up. So you are "isolating a variable" (in this case, dps), using a situation that is not replicated in 99% of the rest of the game, using uncontrolled measures and dubious metrics (such as ignoring all survivability stats entirely in favor of more DPS) and then some people present such data as "evidence" that some things need to be nerfed? That would be like me entering a bike race, with a motorcycle, that I used illegal upgrades on, and then made the augment that since people swim too fast bikes need to be nerfed.

Warning - possible unpopular opinion. You want to know a reason why Pylons don't matter? I can give you a few! 1. It doesn't resemble actual combat. It is literally a target dummy. Actual enemies move, fight back, buff, debuff, heal, and all kinds of other things. All you are presenting is a race, and a very narrow visioned one at that. DPS is but a small slice of the COH combat pie. 2. It doesn't compare ST to AOE. I don't think I really need to elaborate further on this, do I? 3. It doesn't take things like Brute fury-build up into account, and so on. 4. A person can say to heck with things like defense, resist, debuff protection, etc etc and build full out for DPS and DPS only, and perform awesome on a Pylon. When such a build might very likely fall flat elsewhere, especially on harder difficulties when things fight back, and especially solo. 5. I don't recall who, but someone once set a record with of all things... ...wait for it.. ..a Crabbermind. This was awhile ago mind you, 2-3 years I am thinking. But I recall at the time people were very surprised by how good of a time it was. It wasn't FIRST, but it was certainly up there. More than most expected. But I doubt anyone here would argue that Crabbers need DPS nerf, especially when they enjoy the infamous reputation for being "meh" dps to begin with. Not to mention that on anything harder than +3/8, its hard to keep all your pets alive for any duration longer than your barrier wearing off. 6. Lastly, the "but meh DPS!" mentality is a trap. And frankly it irks me that its the only measuring stick that people seem to care about. What do I mean by "its a trap?" It reminds me of the days of yore, back during raids when some people would just stare at the DPS meters and go "IM WINNING!" when they are standing in the fire, or messing up the raid mechanics, and wipe the raid. But are utterly convinced that since they were "top of the charts" they could do no wrong and it was everyone elses fault. How DARE people expect them to move, swap targets, click the thingy, and so on. That would drop them to number 3 at least, possibly even number 4! THE NERVE! Now I hasten to add that I make no accusations that anyone here is of that same mentality, only that some remind me of such. When in any content that actually matters, frankly, DPS is at best, a 3rd or 4th concern. At most. On any hard content, the questions usually asked are - "do we have the right debuffs?" "do we have the right debuff protection" "we good for the purple patches" etc. I am hard pressed to think of a single solitary time was the question asked "do we have enough DPS" on any hard content. So I take any claims of Pylons or DPS with a very large grain of salt. Which is to say, I utterly disregard a lot of it unless it's from a voice that I respect, of which there are many. But the funny thing? For all the outcries of "X NEEDS DPS NERF!" Or "look what I can do! LOOK AT MEH NUMBAS!" I can take a build that does half that and solo things that your shiny glass cannon can only dream of. Soloing AVs, GMs, entire TFs, etc. Anyone built only for DPS and DPS only isn't soloing any of those. Which makes me wonder why DPS seems to be the only measurement that people seem to go on crusades for. However, I do want to add that I don't entirely disregard Pylon data. Only that I don't think its a good metric at all to compare different ATs. What it IS good for is rough ballpark estimates, as well as comparing different powersets on the SAME AT. NOT different AT metrics or balance arguments. As far as the Changeling thing specifically? I'll throw that into my "who cares" bin. What they do doesn't affect me. If they found a way to make an underperforming AT at least mediocre, then I say the onus is on the admins to fix it so such things aren't necessary or even an option. I only played one once, years ago, a Warshade and got to level 30ish. I remember it being so painful I regarded it in the same category as petless MMs. Granted I know much more about the game now than I did way back when, but I am skeptical that they have really changed all that much except with the change specifically cited. And I scoff at any claims of "but the DEVS want..." or "the DEVS said...!" without specific direct quotes. I can claim they think Santa Clause is a IRS agent who vacations in the tropics, but that doesn't make it true. So, until I see an actual Dev post that directly addresses an issue, I will take what people claim what they said with a very large pile of salt. As in entirely disregarded altogether. Just my two cents PS - if people wanted to compare actual combat data in a more realistic situation, they would be using a specific map on the AE where other combat features are also a concern. Not just how much damage you can do against a non-moving standing target with no powers or abilities.

How I used it was I would just stand in my own Bonfire, so they would have to come to me. The AI is kind of dumb that way. Most enemies don't fly or have a full cycle of ranged attacks. Works for more than just Bonfire too. Instead of trying to make an enemy stay in place, sometimes its so much easier if you just stand where you want them yourself. Bummer to hear about the flopping nerf, I took it more for that than the "meh" damage. I was actually pondering trying a multi-stack of such "pool" effects, like Bonfire + Corrosive Vial + Enflame + Tar Patch/Sleet/Secondary of choice etc. Pretty much just stacking multiple "Ranged Area of Effect" powers and then just standing near or by it. I doubt such would be a top performer, but it might be fun to try. That kind of "plant the flag" playstyle would go well with /Traps and Trick Arrow, come to think about it.

Two pages and not one person mentioned the Ski Slope?!?!? ⛷️ Op! Just saw Flea did in first post. ^.^ Faith in Flea's restored.

Welcome to "en masse" play. It's how I farm with my MMs. Pretty much engage as much as possible and burn it all down. I consider it more a solo activity unless I am with friends who also like playing in that manner, not something I do on random teams as most don't seem to like it. Instead of going group-by-group of spawns you run through the first, past the second, jump over the third, and smash into the fourth and round them all up into a giant death ball. On the Asteroid map I engage 5-8 groups of mobs at a time. While my damage vs brutes isn't even close, since I can engage so many MORE at a time, the damage vs the map as a whole is comparable. Robots before the change used to be ABSURDLY fast - 3 minute clear times in fact. But since the change the missile burn patches got nerfed so it's more like 7 or so minutes now. Nowadays if I want to farm with my MMs I just go with my 3 demon team. Almost as fast, but the pets are much studier which makes it all easier. Just bums me out how the devs seem to dislike people playing in such a way, as they keep changing things to make it more and more tricky to do. Some tricks still work, you can always line-of-sight things, but in wide open spaces unless you are on a AT with pets that can engage a LOT of mobs at a time, the rest of the spawns will just hang back and pelt you with things. But with a big enough aggro list (pets have their own aggro tables) everything will come into the death ball and get clobbered. But to me, going spawn to spawn one by one is JUST.. SO.. SLOW... I mean, if it takes me the same amount of time to burn down one group as it does to burn down 3 groups, why would I stop at fighting one group at a time?

Agree with most of the points have others have made, have a few gems to mention - Depending on the Primary, Group Fly may want to be considered, mostly with Mercs and Robots since they are ranged. Bonfire "used" to be a great pic. I recall reading elsewhere it's not worth taking anymore, but I have no firsthand knowledge of it either way. It "used" to be a fantastic duration lockdown ability that was a huge boon to some setups. Enflame I have had both good and bad results with. Think it depends on pet type, and its difficult to tell for sure what its damage or proc rates are. Depending on the Primary and Secondary, Burnout can be a powerful tool. It can let you get double-gangwar or hell on earth, but is also useful for sets like Nature that have a powerful buff. Fold Space might be situationally useful, but I've had good results with it. Hoarfrost and Hibernate are also situationally useful. Soul Consumption is also nice to have if you dislike relying on inspirations and don't want to take Ageless. Not all of these will shine on all MM primary+secondary pairings, a tool thats fantastic for one may not be fantastic for another. IMO MMs more than most other ATs can vary widely in playstyle depending on primary and secondary. A scrapper is always going to scrap. A tanker is always going to tank. But you can build MMs to be super buffers, super debuffer, solo GM hunter, tankermind, a hover team, etc etc.

Well not for MY characters, but I'd love to see Weird Al or Carrot Top in a superhero movie.

After playing/testing, I put all my tankers on the shelf right next to my Robot MMs. I've kept 2 or 3 in case a friend needs a tanker for whatever reason. But if their goal was to have fewer people playing tanks then they have been successful.

Farming isn't the problem. Them favoring some activities, playstyles, ATs, more than others is the problem. And I would argue that for the past 5 years there have been more nerfs than buffs, and I suspect some things that need fixed aren't even on their radar. Some may disagree, and that's fine. Each to their own. But I will have little empathy for folks who complain when what they liked gets nerfed, after the things I liked go through multiple rounds of being nerfed.

I would argue that for the majority of 95% or so of content, "nobody" is "needed." You can do pretty much any activity with any AT makeup. You don't NEED a tank, you don't NEED controllers, you don't NEED healing, and so on. And I think they did an overall good job balancing things. If you have a lot of Tanks/Brutes, you don't really need healers. If you have a lot of Controllers, you don't really need tankers. If you have full on DPS, you don't really need anyone. If you have full MM group, you don't really need anyone. If you have a full SoA/Widow group, you don't really need anyone. I have never been on one, but I suspect if you had all Warshades/Peacebringers, you definitely don't need anyone. (And that might actually be a blast to play, come to think of it.) One of the things I like the most about this game is that you don't really need the MMO party tri-fecta of Tank/Healer/DPS. You can go all Tank, or all DPS, or all Control, heck, you can even go all Support or Healer and accomplish 95% of the game. The only real difference is how long it will take and how many people may die in the process.

Never played that, but I remember a lot of the Disney games for all their silliness were actually quite difficult.

The oldschool Castlevania's. Super Ghosts n Goblins. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Zombies ate my Neighbors. Adventure of Link. And of course, Battletoads.

Shelving my tankers for the time being unless a friend needs one for some reason. Only one I am keeping on the roster at the moment is my Bio/EM Tanker. Looking at possibly a Spines/Bio Scrapper or a Brute. Most of the time I don't need a tankers durability, and I am not going play solo and be penalized for having such.

Last time I checked the Demons +RES buff stacks. The robots bubble applies once per MM I think too. Think that's it though. I know you no longer get double bubble from 1 robot MM but they should still stack with different MMs.

Personally, I rate this game on the easier side of things. Other games like Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Darkest Dungeon, etc can be much more difficult. Most of the hardest things in this game isn't really hard, or unfair, it's just knowing the fight. (dodge the purples). That or the fights just take a lloonngg time. Now, to be fair, the same could be said of those other games. People have beaten Dark Souls using nothing but mudpies and not taking a single hit. But I would argue the "Ceiling" to get to that point is much higher in those games than this one. But at the end, it isn't a contest or race. And if you want a harder challenge, you have that option here. You don't HAVE to optimize. You can increase the difficulty. You can take different powers. If you want a challenge, you can give it to yourself. But if you want it easier, well, that isn't really an option. Personally, I try to view +2 as the "normal." Any build can do stuff on +0 or -1, pretty much any AT can do +2. +4 is where you have to know what you are doing, and to do harder content you have to plan ahead. So its easier for me to see +3, +4 and beyond as a kind of built in hard mode or difficulty (+). Short version - I say this game is on the easier side of things. And that's not a bad thing. Its nice to have a game where you have the option to go full chill mode and relax, as well as push the envelope if you want to. Not all games have such options in the same game.

Sometimes my favorite things to do are just goof off and do silly things. -Swoop down as a Full 50+4 incarnate demigod to save that hot dog vendors tips from some level 2 never-do-wells. -Fly around with a Knockback power and try to blow npcs off of buildings. -Use a -fly power to try and make enemies fall. -Hop a top some random car and see where it goes. (Most of the time they just drive in circles.) Honestly Wish there was a full-on mission (or even a mini story) where you are on a Train or something with enemies attacking it from the sky and you have to defend it. -I might see some hero out in the world and just buff them to the gills as much as I can without explanation. -Fight some giant monster. -Spend hours (and I mean hours) in the costume editor. I might have 100+ costumes that will never see the light of day. -Muck around with the power customization options. -Ski Slope! Honestly, wish we had more stuff like this. Like an Asteroid-hopping game where you are in an area with flying disabled and jump from asteroid to asteroid. Or a swimming one with goals and jumps and obstacles. -Once for funsies made a scavenger hunt with friends. Each of us made a list of 3 things we had to locate in the open-world game. Some of them were downright mean. On a side note, I do kind of wish there were more "down to earth" kind of missions. Not everything has to be some grand epic struggle to save the world from a global threat. Why not stuff like breaking up a bar fight in a super hero bar, finding a lost puppy, so on.

I would actually enforce the "no adult content, politics, harassment, etc etc" of the user agreement, with paying special attention to Raid channel.

No, it's more one group of things consistently getting nerfed while the other is either outright ignored or even encouraged and rewarded.

I don't play the meta, but I do try to get the most out of what powersets I choose. But some of them I make just because I enjoy them. Rarely do I copy other peoples builds, mostly I look at them for ideas or inspiration, and then put my own spin on things. I am more concerned with enjoyment, something that flows well (not END starved), and is consistent. Nerfing dps durability? Totally fine with that. Tanker damage nerf? Would be fine with it, if tankers got something else in return. We didn't. Axe nerf? Duno. Never tried it. Farming? Ironically, it's not the farmers who are the absurdly wealthy folks - its the people who A. Play their 50s for a long time because there is very LITTLE upkeep in this game to speak of. So once your 50 is done, you incur virtually zero cost, and anything you get is a net gain. And people who B. Play stock market simulator on the AH. The richest people I know are like, level 10. They don't do missions. They hang out in their chosen spots and play the market. Thats their main draw to the game. Not my thing mind you, but for some that's their thrill. Sure, balancing touches every aspect. Bbbuuttt... it certainly seems at one section of the game... ...and hardly ever others. Some ATs/Powers have yet to get touched, at all. And others are all over the place. And I don't believe for a moment that everyone would agree such things are "balanced." If you ask me, they focus on what's popular, or the best. If somethings the best, its automatically presumed to be over-tuned and needs nerfing. While the stuff at the bottom has been at the bottom for awhile now, and at this point I kinda doubt its gonna change anytime soon.

I am split about 50/50 on the changes that I like or dislike. But either way one thing I will give them absolute credit for is the dedication to devote free time to the game that by all rights should be long gone. Younger games are already on life support, so I will thank them for that. Likes - All the cosmetics, new missions, new side content, quality of life improvements. Community involvement. Lore and Story. Dislikes - The balance changes, most of which I tend to disagree with. Complete overhaul of some powers to the point they are similar to their originals in name only. Bias in receiving feedback. (There may not be any bias, but it certainly seems that way. One crowd certainly seems to always get what they want and anyone who naysays or disagrees is left by the wayside.) The full-on support/encouragement/rewards/new shiny for team play while leaving people who prefer to solo or mainly play alone very little new content. Even punishing it in some ways such as the heavy-handed AE nerf. Overall, happy the game is alive and well. But I find myself liking the game less the more they change, add, or "fix." All my favorite builds I loved when HC first came back don't even play the same at all anymore.

You are entitled to your opinion. Getting 45 DEF isn't the catch all be all. That isn't even the most mathematically beneficial according to my napkin math. The most immediate and most effective form of defense is flying. Why? Simply because most enemies don't have full ranged attack chains, most only have 1 or 2 attacks. So that means right out the gate you are facing up to 1/2 to 3/4th less attacks against most enemies, before any dice is even rolled. But lets play hypothetical how I rip apart +4 stuff solo on my corruptor - Oh no. I'm in a fight. I better start flying. (Immediately face far fewer attacks.) Oh no I'm under attack. (Power Boost + Farsight, I'm now over defense cap) Oh no, my DEF buff is wearing off. (Pop Chrono Shift) Oh no, I am under CC. (Pop RoP) Oh no, I am getting debuffed. (Pop Ageless) This isn't even popping a single inspiration. Or any P2W. Or any accolades. I am essentially immortal or at least extremely tough against most enemies, comparatively as tough as my tanker would be. The tanker is far more durable overall, but that is in a sense moot since the corruptor is as tough as required. So if I am comparatively tough "enough" but I do far far more damage, then where's this outcry for "tankers do too much damage" vs "squishy aren't squishy" originating from? First off, a biillion dollar build no way entitles you to clear anything on any AT. Secondly, I would argue playing around a single powers cooldown is hardly "strategic" anymore than rock-paper-scissors is. And any AT can be built "tough enough" for even the most difficult solo activities. Either combining buffs with debuffs, p2w, incarnates, etc etc. But not every AT can be built to do enough dps for any solo activity. At least unless you want to go afk for an hour with a power on autocast. See above comment. It takes more than DEF softcap, but what's escaping you is my point that hitting DEF softcap, and fairly good resistances without having to use other tools/cooldowns shouldn't even be an option on full hog DPS ATs. In a sense, you are aurging that - Its totally 100% okay for DPS ATs can boost their survivability. But if Tankers/Brutes/survive builds want to boost their damage, that requires an immediate nerf. No, Brutes are simply the fastest. Tankers are simply the easiest, as well as the cheapest. But you can farm with nearly any AT, I have done it with SoA, Warshade, even triple boxed MMs that could clear maps in 3 minutes. (That has since been nerfed.) Even farmed with Widows and Controllers. It also matters if you are talking active farming vs afk farming. If you are AFK farming, than survivability is crucial, since you are only using one autocast attack AoE power. If you are actively playing, that isn't as make-or-break, since you can use other powers as well. And I would argue that it's a moot point, since now we are talking about balancing Tanker/Brute DPS in all activities (groups, solo, hardmode, chill radio teams, etc) only because of what some single builds can do? Well, if that's the argument then lets nerf fly and -fly protection and Farsight/Power Boost right now since those are so strong defensively. RoP as well. Lets make Incarnate cooldowns longer or have a debuff built in so teams can't juggle them for constant coverage. (AKA a "not affected by incarnate buff" timer when it wears off.) I mean I have a whole list of things that should be immediately nerfed if we are going to stomp entire ATs because of what some builds are capable of under some situations. But call it a hunch that nobody wants to have that kind of conversation. Again, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. But I doubt we are going to agree on this. And from my chair it sure seems like some are allowed to "have their cake and eat it too" while others are constantly changed/tweaked/nerfed, and I am not convinced it's not for any kind of biased reason.

What I meant was balancing the armor sets across different ATs. I mean most DPS take DEF sets since they have lower res caps for example. A scrapper or stalker can take Shield for example and be dang near as good as a Tanker, while doing much more DPS. I mean, if Tankers shouldn't be able to do meaningful damage, then DPS shouldn't be so durable, right? What's good for one, is good for the other, right? I mean, if a squishy can just zoom into a full spawn on +4/8 without fear and just nuke them all down with zero caution, I would argue they are too durable. The glass cannons in this game are not glass cannon at all, whatsoever. If a tanker has 50% of the damage they do, then they should have 50% of the durability? (Just an example for context, not meant to be a literal comparison.) For all the rebalancing over the years focused pretty much entirely around DPS, not once did they go "maybe the squishes aren't squishy enough." If you can do a hardmode with nothing but corruptors, etc, I would argue that might need rebalancing more than say, oh, I dunno, Plant Control? I mean, if you want to get right down to it, people can go full hog DPS as much as they like and just take turns popping barrier and clear 90% of the harder content anyway. Tankers and Brutes not even needed at all. There are tools like Rune of Protection, Barrier, etc to make squishies just as tough as tankers, but there isn't much those tankers can do to boost their damage. Even if their powerset has a buildup, that lasts for a few moments while the defensive stuff lasts quite awhile. Long enough you can juggle them with small windows of squishy-ness. I am all for "play your way" and "everything should be viable." But from where I sit they definitely are playing favorites.

I leveled 3 Plant to max level with +3 Incarnates, and personally I wasn't impressed. Sure it was neat and fun, but IMO other things were wildly over tuned. Soloing with it was safe, but also very slow, painfully slow. I could have a brute use an aoe on auto and clear the same content faster, and soloing +4 things was especially a slog. Sure I could lock stuff down, but it took so long to kill things. Especially since Plant was one of the few Controller sets that stood out on teams, especially fast moving ones. Now? Not so much. Honestly it feels as if any powerset or power is wildly popular, it's what gets attention (good or bad.) I am genuinely curious as to what difficulty and what activity they use to base changes on. It certainly isn't +0, nor is it +4. While no controller expert (usually play Tankers, MMs, and SoA's), this most definitely felt like a "NO FUN ALLOWED" change.

Personally, I would prefer if DPS wasn't the only metric that seems to be considered when balancing things which seems to be the case. In a game with so many ATs, Powersets, Combat mechanics, Playstyles, Enemies, Mission Type, Difficulty Level, etc etc etc, DPS is only one small piece of the pie and a great many other things seem overlooked or neglected entirely. When was the last time say, +RES buffs among powersets were balanced? +DEF Buffs among powersets? So on and so forth.

Have to respectfully disagree here... I have made some VERY durable Crabbers, 45% DEF, 85% RES, flying, full ranged attacks, etc etc etc... not that many people build them that way, but its certainly possible. Was she killing things quickly? Heck no. But there were times when she was the most durable one on the team, including the brute/tanker. I have also had MMs that could survive things that that would wreck some of my tankers too. Now is that normal, standard, or typical? Heck no. But to say that its impossible to reach tanker-levels of durability with any other AT is just plain incorrect. I do hasten to add that your general point - that "most" don't get that tough is correct. But to say that nobody can or does isn't correct. Heck, I have seen a Shield Scrapper Tank Recluse before.